Early into this rediscovery process RD and SP made their exit. Not much was said by JAL other than lamenting the schism. MG was becoming more involved, but he hadn't moved north yet. I was learning a lot more about JAL and PL. She was running the office, which was a sun room off the back of the house.
Copies of old unitarian books were being sold and connections with other non-trinitarian groups were forming; most notably Anthony Buzzard's group. He had published a fascinating little booklet that was the pre-cursor to his "self inflicted wound" book. CES was participating in round tables with other Christian organizations.
JAL spent hours on the phone connecting with people who had exited TWI. There was a mailing list of over 5000 people. In the meantime, Momentus was making an appearance even as marriages were breaking up.
Momentus revealed some of the uglier aspects of TWI, including its systematic grooming of children (girls in particular) for sexual abuse and what that did to the kids.
By this time I was helping out in the home office with computer stuff as a volunteer. I assisted in helping move and convert the data from Mac to PC. That brings me to one of the more disturbing situations for me. I had not been through Momentus. I was pretty wary about the whole thing, but what I experienced one evening pretty much nailed the coffin shut on whether or not I would go through a weekend.
I had been testing the data transfer and conversions and was ready to move it and go live. This was a several hour job. I needed to do this when JAL was out of town. That day happened to be when a guest/roommate who also happened to be a Momentus trainer was at the house and was going to be using the house to host a party for his wife. The guests included a number of Momentus grads and JAL's parents. So my car gets closed in and I can't leave to get anything to eat. Here I was at the site of this elaborate party where people are feasting on New York Strip steaks and I can't get out to go to Hardee's to pick up a burger. It's been 12 hours since I've had anything to eat and I'm getting a bit cranky.
So somebody comes in after everyone's eaten and after everyone's been served the cake and offers me a piece of cake. I explained that I hadn't eaten all day, but the last thing I needed was cake. I needed real food. Then I was offered some leftovers. I was mad. I was stunned. I was heartbroken.
In the spirit of all this open communication and iron sharpening iron stuff, I let the guy know (whose name escapes me right now) that I was perturbed by his lack of manners. I told him that he knew I had been working all day with only bathroom breaks. He knew I hadn't had anything to eat. He knew I was working for free. He knew I couldn't get out because of the parking. Yet he never offered me a bite to eat. His excuse? He didn't know if there would be enough for the guests. I was appalled at his excuse and I told him so. The idea that he could open his mouth, say that, and believe it on any level was astounding to me. I told him that if this kind of thinking is what Momentus is all about, I didn't want any part of it. I told him that I gotten enough of that attitude in TWI from WC people.
As a sidebar, Momentus was particularly insidious for people who had departed TWI because it created a dynamic similar to the name tag hierarchy in TWI. It created an immediate tension between the "best thing since sliced bread" crowd and the "I'd rather not" group.
So my question about Momentus was what good was this to CES; to the people who were supporting CES? What part of this is fish and what part is bones? I've never gotten a straight answer on that one.
So, in the meantime I'm doing a lot of studies in Christology and while I don't have a book about it in me, I do have some opinions that definitely are different from TWI, most of them having to do with Jesus and what he is currently doing and this "image of God" body-soul-& spirit thing.
While JAL brushed me off, MG and I talked at length about my misgivings about TWI's body/soul/spirit teachings. I had come to the conclusion that Adam (& Eve) were the image of God in their original body and soul state. If there was "spirit," it wasn't anything like how it was taught in TWI. By the time Seth came along, Adam had become his own image and his own kind. He was no longer the "image of God". I didn't see any kind of spiritual death. I also felt that man's body had the capacity for death the entire time. The question of what would have happened should man have experienced death before the fall was one that would never be answered. Would he have been "obedient unto death" as Jesus was? While much of what I discussed was originally pooh poohed by MG, I couldn't help but notice that the "image of God" part had made its way into the OGOL book. Not that I was ever credited for that, but then again I hadn't published anything along those lines outside of Prodigy's religion forums.
Again, we could talk. Really talk. Talk without fear of repercussion. It was real conversation. At least I thought so.
By this time, Momentus is becoming a huge issue. Several people have gone to JAL personally, now it's gone to a full-blown group confrontation. It's at this time that we decide not to attend CES fellowships any longer. However, this in no way affects my relationship with CES. I'm still volunteering and supporting the research ministry. In my mind I've separated what they teach from what they do. As long as I don't have to deal with how they do church, I'm pretty much ok with them.
So, in the meantime I'm doing a lot of studies in Christology and while I don't have a book about it in me, I do have some opinions that definitely are different from TWI, most of them having to do with Jesus and what he is currently doing and this "image of God" body-soul-& spirit thing.
While JAL brushed me off, MG and I talked at length about my misgivings about TWI's body/soul/spirit teachings. I had come to the conclusion that Adam (& Eve) were the image of God in their original body and soul state. If there was "spirit," it wasn't anything like how it was taught in TWI. By the time Seth came along, Adam had become his own image and his own kind. He was no longer the "image of God". I didn't see any kind of spiritual death. I also felt that man's body had the capacity for death the entire time. The question of what would have happened should man have experienced death before the fall was one that would never be answered. Would he have been "obedient unto death" as Jesus was? While much of what I discussed was originally pooh poohed by MG, I couldn't help but notice that the "image of God" part had made its way into the OGOL book. Not that I was ever credited for that, but then again I hadn't published anything along those lines outside of Prodigy's religion forums.
Again, we could talk. Really talk. Talk without fear of repercussion. It was real conversation. At least I thought so.
By this time, Momentus is becoming a huge issue. Several people have gone to JAL personally, now it's gone to a full-blown group confrontation. It's at this time that we decide not to attend CES fellowships any longer. However, this in no way affects my relationship with CES. I'm still volunteering and supporting the research ministry. In my mind I've separated what they teach from what they do. As long as I don't have to deal with how they do church, I'm pretty much ok with them.
STF has a magazine titled Sower and this months lead article is about " character counts" it says we can not seperate a persons character from his gift from God.
I think it is an excellent article.
Vince F. son has a radio show saying it is possible to lose salvation after being born again. STF particularly jal has spoken out in a teaching with very strong words against that type of thinking and still says dispensation isthe only truth.
my point is the spin off groups are changing their own ideas about what the bible means.
I find it interesting and at times it still unsettles my cult mind set I battle.
i have gotten to the point inmy own life that God isreal and bigger than any religous belief system and the Lord hosts who He only will.
STF has a magazine titled Sower and this months lead article is about " character counts" it says we can not seperate a persons character from his gift from God.
I think it is an excellent article.
Yet the author doesn't see where he has been less than transparent in his dealings with people. I have no doubt that he believes what he writes, but not to the extent of doing. I witnessed first hand the breach of ethics on a number of issues.
Vince F. son has a radio show saying it is possible to lose salvation after being born again. STF particularly jal has spoken out in a teaching with very strong words against that type of thinking and still says dispensation isthe only truth.
The problem with STF's thinking is that it doesn't pay close attention to the back side of rewards. The scriptures clearly say we will be judged according to our works and Jesus clearly says that we would be better off having not been saved if our works don't measure up. Dispensationalism doesn't think those clear teachings from Jesus apply to the church. I disagree. I leaned towards dispensations until about a year ago.
my point is the spin off groups are changing their own ideas about what the bible means.
While still holding firmly to the notion of possessing the "truth" as it has not been proclaimed since the first century.
I find it interesting and at times it still unsettles my cult mind set I battle.
I name stuff that is part of cult mind-set out loud. I used to be very cautious about talking about my former religious organization. I thought people would think less of me. Now I don't care. Naming it has been very freeing because most religious organizations lean towards a cult mentality whether they realize it or not.
So while we stopped attending CES functions, we were still "partners" and held fellowships in our home for people who had left CES, but weren't up for church. We did that until we noticed that every gathering was nothing more than a CES bash session and what turned into doctrine wars. I watched as long-time relationships suffered over the notion that holding to the "truth" was the glue that kept the relationships valid.
It was becoming harder to separate the bones from the fish. We (my husband and I) grew weary of all the arguing about "truth". He started attending a local church. I stayed away and got my fellowshipping in at CES home HQ.
my supervisor used to teach a class on what we do for a living.
He now has the oppurtunity to do the work he studied and taught for years.
He is the first to admit he can not do it, he fails, and is unable to maintain the load much less complete the tasks in a timely manner.
my point is this not common amoung those who claim to teach?
they can say but not do .
a buddy who works side by side with this boss often says to "us" the common folk "if you have something to say, say it."
I consider him, but he does use his alliance with the super to be lazy ( good for him), the bible does also consider those who teach as being judged more than average as well.
For myself today with the resources available and such a mighty LORD I see no reason to strive with academics of scripture, I think stf is a nice resource particularly truth or tradition web site.
most of it is free although all onthe web which many may not have access.
I firmly believe what I do is important although many can not "feel" that truth, (until I do not do it). Is this not the reason we have roles and parts to play in life?
I do not know theses guys on a personal level but I know my own players in life and the attitudes we generate such is the condition of humanity in life is it not ? Why the Lord commands we love and forgive as He does us I believe . takes the focus off what each thinks he can accomplish or fail with.
otherwise we can all just peck one another to death.
stiffy, their spurious doctrines, and their strange practices, "SLEEP WITH THE FISHES" as far as i'm concerned..........just quoting another man-made character.................peace.
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Rejoice
Is it still like that today with all the upheaval that continues?
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Tzaia
I don't think so.
I'll be adding to this as I go. I just can't write it down in one big essay.
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Tzaia
Early into this rediscovery process RD and SP made their exit. Not much was said by JAL other than lamenting the schism. MG was becoming more involved, but he hadn't moved north yet. I was learning a lot more about JAL and PL. She was running the office, which was a sun room off the back of the house.
Copies of old unitarian books were being sold and connections with other non-trinitarian groups were forming; most notably Anthony Buzzard's group. He had published a fascinating little booklet that was the pre-cursor to his "self inflicted wound" book. CES was participating in round tables with other Christian organizations.
JAL spent hours on the phone connecting with people who had exited TWI. There was a mailing list of over 5000 people. In the meantime, Momentus was making an appearance even as marriages were breaking up.
Momentus revealed some of the uglier aspects of TWI, including its systematic grooming of children (girls in particular) for sexual abuse and what that did to the kids.
By this time I was helping out in the home office with computer stuff as a volunteer. I assisted in helping move and convert the data from Mac to PC. That brings me to one of the more disturbing situations for me. I had not been through Momentus. I was pretty wary about the whole thing, but what I experienced one evening pretty much nailed the coffin shut on whether or not I would go through a weekend.
I had been testing the data transfer and conversions and was ready to move it and go live. This was a several hour job. I needed to do this when JAL was out of town. That day happened to be when a guest/roommate who also happened to be a Momentus trainer was at the house and was going to be using the house to host a party for his wife. The guests included a number of Momentus grads and JAL's parents. So my car gets closed in and I can't leave to get anything to eat. Here I was at the site of this elaborate party where people are feasting on New York Strip steaks and I can't get out to go to Hardee's to pick up a burger. It's been 12 hours since I've had anything to eat and I'm getting a bit cranky.
So somebody comes in after everyone's eaten and after everyone's been served the cake and offers me a piece of cake. I explained that I hadn't eaten all day, but the last thing I needed was cake. I needed real food. Then I was offered some leftovers. I was mad. I was stunned. I was heartbroken.
In the spirit of all this open communication and iron sharpening iron stuff, I let the guy know (whose name escapes me right now) that I was perturbed by his lack of manners. I told him that he knew I had been working all day with only bathroom breaks. He knew I hadn't had anything to eat. He knew I was working for free. He knew I couldn't get out because of the parking. Yet he never offered me a bite to eat. His excuse? He didn't know if there would be enough for the guests. I was appalled at his excuse and I told him so. The idea that he could open his mouth, say that, and believe it on any level was astounding to me. I told him that if this kind of thinking is what Momentus is all about, I didn't want any part of it. I told him that I gotten enough of that attitude in TWI from WC people.
As a sidebar, Momentus was particularly insidious for people who had departed TWI because it created a dynamic similar to the name tag hierarchy in TWI. It created an immediate tension between the "best thing since sliced bread" crowd and the "I'd rather not" group.
So my question about Momentus was what good was this to CES; to the people who were supporting CES? What part of this is fish and what part is bones? I've never gotten a straight answer on that one.
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Tzaia
So, in the meantime I'm doing a lot of studies in Christology and while I don't have a book about it in me, I do have some opinions that definitely are different from TWI, most of them having to do with Jesus and what he is currently doing and this "image of God" body-soul-& spirit thing.
While JAL brushed me off, MG and I talked at length about my misgivings about TWI's body/soul/spirit teachings. I had come to the conclusion that Adam (& Eve) were the image of God in their original body and soul state. If there was "spirit," it wasn't anything like how it was taught in TWI. By the time Seth came along, Adam had become his own image and his own kind. He was no longer the "image of God". I didn't see any kind of spiritual death. I also felt that man's body had the capacity for death the entire time. The question of what would have happened should man have experienced death before the fall was one that would never be answered. Would he have been "obedient unto death" as Jesus was? While much of what I discussed was originally pooh poohed by MG, I couldn't help but notice that the "image of God" part had made its way into the OGOL book. Not that I was ever credited for that, but then again I hadn't published anything along those lines outside of Prodigy's religion forums.
Again, we could talk. Really talk. Talk without fear of repercussion. It was real conversation. At least I thought so.
By this time, Momentus is becoming a huge issue. Several people have gone to JAL personally, now it's gone to a full-blown group confrontation. It's at this time that we decide not to attend CES fellowships any longer. However, this in no way affects my relationship with CES. I'm still volunteering and supporting the research ministry. In my mind I've separated what they teach from what they do. As long as I don't have to deal with how they do church, I'm pretty much ok with them.
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pond
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pond
STF has a magazine titled Sower and this months lead article is about " character counts" it says we can not seperate a persons character from his gift from God.
I think it is an excellent article.
Vince F. son has a radio show saying it is possible to lose salvation after being born again. STF particularly jal has spoken out in a teaching with very strong words against that type of thinking and still says dispensation isthe only truth.
my point is the spin off groups are changing their own ideas about what the bible means.
I find it interesting and at times it still unsettles my cult mind set I battle.
i have gotten to the point inmy own life that God isreal and bigger than any religous belief system and the Lord hosts who He only will.
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Tzaia
Yet the author doesn't see where he has been less than transparent in his dealings with people. I have no doubt that he believes what he writes, but not to the extent of doing. I witnessed first hand the breach of ethics on a number of issues.
The problem with STF's thinking is that it doesn't pay close attention to the back side of rewards. The scriptures clearly say we will be judged according to our works and Jesus clearly says that we would be better off having not been saved if our works don't measure up. Dispensationalism doesn't think those clear teachings from Jesus apply to the church. I disagree. I leaned towards dispensations until about a year ago.
While still holding firmly to the notion of possessing the "truth" as it has not been proclaimed since the first century.
I name stuff that is part of cult mind-set out loud. I used to be very cautious about talking about my former religious organization. I thought people would think less of me. Now I don't care. Naming it has been very freeing because most religious organizations lean towards a cult mentality whether they realize it or not.
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Tzaia
So while we stopped attending CES functions, we were still "partners" and held fellowships in our home for people who had left CES, but weren't up for church. We did that until we noticed that every gathering was nothing more than a CES bash session and what turned into doctrine wars. I watched as long-time relationships suffered over the notion that holding to the "truth" was the glue that kept the relationships valid.
It was becoming harder to separate the bones from the fish. We (my husband and I) grew weary of all the arguing about "truth". He started attending a local church. I stayed away and got my fellowshipping in at CES home HQ.
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pond
my supervisor used to teach a class on what we do for a living.
He now has the oppurtunity to do the work he studied and taught for years.
He is the first to admit he can not do it, he fails, and is unable to maintain the load much less complete the tasks in a timely manner.
my point is this not common amoung those who claim to teach?
they can say but not do .
a buddy who works side by side with this boss often says to "us" the common folk "if you have something to say, say it."
I consider him, but he does use his alliance with the super to be lazy ( good for him), the bible does also consider those who teach as being judged more than average as well.
For myself today with the resources available and such a mighty LORD I see no reason to strive with academics of scripture, I think stf is a nice resource particularly truth or tradition web site.
most of it is free although all onthe web which many may not have access.
I firmly believe what I do is important although many can not "feel" that truth, (until I do not do it). Is this not the reason we have roles and parts to play in life?
I do not know theses guys on a personal level but I know my own players in life and the attitudes we generate such is the condition of humanity in life is it not ? Why the Lord commands we love and forgive as He does us I believe . takes the focus off what each thinks he can accomplish or fail with.
otherwise we can all just peck one another to death.
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Ham
At this point, it appears the stffi's have spit out the fish, and choked on the bone..
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DontWorryBeHappy
stiffy, their spurious doctrines, and their strange practices, "SLEEP WITH THE FISHES" as far as i'm concerned..........just quoting another man-made character.................peace.
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