Their is this course, Dale B. Martin, it is a free down load course from Yale; this guy gets into Peter the Great, the influence this guy had, is a trip. I would say they turn to that spirit man teaching about Yeshua in those days; but also Pauls thorn, those of the circumcision with their knifes in their hands. Maybe this might help.
Could one say they were lured away from Paul? It seems, all the Gentiles in those days worshiped, was some kind of three in one god or some form of something; could one make a twist off one these god things; and lure away people from Paul?
It says one thing in one place and says the total opposite in another..
Saved by grace, faith without works is dead.
The ambiguous God.
This is the style of the biblical writers since the very first verse in Genesis where we have not one beginning but two as related to time. (the beginning of time and the beginning of consciousness.)
They all became Christians and they all turned away too. This is so Christians never take the doctrine to seriously.
We have warnings of dire consequences for adding or deleting a word but "the spirits [words] of the prophets are subject to the prophets".
Somewhere betwixt the ambiguity we find a place for reasonable thought and tolerance.
Can one look at it as that parable of the seed? My boss the other day, ask me I talked this new guy that got hired on, about the bible, great guy, but I said to my boss, I think he is into those role model game things, I do not think the word would take root; I think one can easy get lured away, a lot of crazy stuff out their, how will that seed take root, Yahweh gives the increases, but we need to be aware of what kinda of water we use, does that make sense in a way?
That is a trip though, grace and all that stuff; can one say, depending on the fruit growing on the good ground, therein is grace; I look back at the kindness, Yahweh has had for my nothing life, so I try to grow fruit, but it is tuff thing to do in this crazy world. The crazy things this world has to lure one away; it seems like a bunch of fishhooks, which one do we nibble on, but then again we can get hooked; did I look down on Yahweh's kindness when I got hooked, and expecte grace? Tripe stuff.
I camped out 6 days to see this Thin Lizzy concert, three days in to this camp out, I went to the other side of the building to join the party; I came stumbling back to my sleep bag, but it was gone; I left my post. My buddy was on the other side, I did not miss that show; Should one after they come to a fully realization of Yahweh's true kindness, expect grace by treating the blood of Yeshua as ordinary blood; I think back at that camp out, it was cold for those three remaining days, that cold reminds from time to time, I need to be more careful nowadays, me being from wild Olive tree, being grafted into that Olive tree their in Romans?
This might help with your question; I heard once "America" the dude who was the heart of the band, who wrote the songs was a christian. Paul called out in a way to be a house with no name, if one listen to that song, it kinda seems our walk is like that horse in a way?
In I Timothy 1:15, the Apostle Paul writes that, "...all they which dwell in Asia be turned away from me...." KJV
We heard it taught in TWI that verse meant, well, that everyone turned away from Paul. Yet later in that same epistle Paul lists people for Timothy to greet that obviously did not abandon him. As a matter of fact, Timothy was allegedly in Asia at the time of this writing, and he hadn't abandoned Paul. So what did Paul mean by this? I honestly don't know. Anyone have any additional insight on this?
I'm not sure that everyone turning away from Paul, equals - everyone turning away from Christ, but before that time there was the idea of I am of Paul, I am of Apollos and I am of Cephas [Peter] --- Splinter groups.... lol. Perhaps Timothy would be welcome where Paul was not due to divisions in that early church.
I'm not sure that everyone turning away from Paul, equals - everyone turning away from Christ, but before that time there was the idea of I am of Paul, I am of Apollos and I am of Cephas [Peter] --- Splinter groups.... lol. Perhaps Timothy would be welcome where Paul was not due to divisions in that early church.
Wouldn't the words of Paul be the words of Christ in him and how does a "christian" differentiate? More ambiguity...
Romans 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
2 Corinthians 7:8
For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
Philemon 1:19
I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.
2 Peter 1:21 (Whole Chapter)
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Wouldn't the words of Paul be the words of Christ in him ...
No. Are the words of A Christian, even a prophet, quotes from Christ? No. Can they be? Depends on what you believe, as to how you'd answer that. Many people think the whole thing is complete bunk. God, Christ, and all Christians included. It's easier for them that way.
Comment: Reliability?
To everyone, their own cup of tea, eh? But it is a very plausible answer to say that not all who turned away from Paul, ditched Christianity. There were others teaching while Paul was jailed and hauled out of Asia to Rome, for instance. People tend to forget their loyalty to the formerly present leaders Such as VPW and LCM, such is the case in the Way today I think, All have turned away from LCM, or they've left the Way if they haven't. He's been erased there.
Has Yahweh turned away from us? Wow, that is deep. What if a man was told to do something by Yahweh, but turned his back on what he was told to do; like what Martindale did. Man made teachings creep into those texts, so if a man is told to make the correction, but did not, is it on Yahweh or the man? It is a trip how one man not doing something, so to speak, could effect the lives of so many. Trippe stuff.
Listening or not listening; their are a lot of story's in the bible about people listening or not listening. Like this spirit teaching thing going on, that Martindale did finish taking out. Did Yahweh put that spirit teaching junk in his word, or did man? The body will not be aloud for that spirit teaching stuff to be gathered up, the announcement has been made, but if you did not dump that spirit teaching stuff, is it on Yahweh or you? Did Yahweh turn his back on you, or did Martindale?
What if a Rev. or one of those functions in the body; say one of them heard this announcement, and said what a nut, and did not tell you; did Yahweh turn his back on you, or did one of the function of the body, were are many members in this body.
Yes, they did. Remember, Isreal rejected its Messiah, and the "last call" so to speak of the Apostles, that if Israel repented, Christ was ready to come back in his glory and they would enter the book of Revelation, so to speak.
Also remember in Acts, Romans, I&II Corinthians, I and II Thessalonians, Hebrews and Galations - Paul had not yet received his revelation of the "one new man" the "new creation" the "one body."
During that time, it was Israel's hope that was taught and preached, and at that point, any Gentile who believed, was basically lucky to be "grafted in" and able to partake of Israel's hope - the new earth and heavenly jerusalem come to earth.
Now, along comes Ephesians and the rest of the prison epistles.
Remember, Israel had done the unthinkable - they had rejected their Messiah.
Uh oh - now what?
Well, now, God says, I will go to the Alien and Stranger, the one who had NO HOPE, absolutely no inheritance in Israel's hope, the one who was "without me" and could never know me. They had no Hope. They were adrift on the earth. Israel was my chosen fleshly people on earth. Through Israel, it was my intention that they spread my knowledge to the Gentiles.
But now, because of Israel's hardness, blindness, hearing they will not hear, seeing they will not see... I will go to the Gentile. I will give the revelation to Paul of a mystery I have kept hidden and not prophesised about in the OT. A plan I purposed in eternity, before Gen. 1:1. I will call out a body to live with me above the heavens, in Glory with me.
Whoa! Hold on there!! To a Jew, or a Gentile who had become a Christian during the Acts period, this was unthinkable.
They said, this was never, ever, written in the OT. You can't prove this Paul - it is not written! The priest could enter into the holy of holies in the temple once a year - signifying entrance into the Glory where God dwelt - but now you are saying Paul that the Gentiles who believe will live there with him - in God's glory????!!!!! You're nuts!
They walked away. All asia turned away.
Paul received the fullness of the revelation, the mystery, a new thing. He rarely used OT quotes to back it up - because its not there. They basically had to take it on faith that what he said was true.
I see it more as, there is a new heaven and earth coming that will dwell in God's light holy, pure, and without sin, and God, over time is calling people to believe and is going about populating all segments of the new earth and heaven. That's why new bodies will be needed. The laws of phyics as we know them will be folded up.
He is populating the new earth, the heavenly Jerusalem, I believe angels will stay in the heavens, and the one body - those who believe the prison epistles, will dwell in glory - the place (it is a literal place) above the heavenlies. All segments will be full of life - bodies terrestial and bodies celestial.
So, because of Paul's teaching, of putting aside Israel's hope, which was now in abeyance (Acts 28:28), and being given a commission by God to preach what happened and what comes next during this period of grace while Israel is "lo-ammi" - not my people - for now, Christ now functions as the head and builder of a new creation, a one body that will live in union with him as part of his body in glory in eternity, yes - people walked. Whoever heard of such a thing????
He (Paul) rarely used OT quotes to back it up - because its not there. They basically had to take it on faith that what he said was true.
Interesting points, Sunesis. I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion in regards to Paul, but you build a good case. What you say regarding Paul's not using the Old Testament is questionable. Romans and Galatians contain quite a few quotes. But I'm in danger of derailing this thread. Thank you for your post. It gives me something to think about.
While Paul may not spend a lot of time quoting the OT, he and Jesus both spent a lot of time discussing Jewish oral traditions that are not contained within the OT
How about if Paul and Jesus were "cunningly devised fables" created by visionary liberal Jews and Greek scribes of the first century to combat the racist Old Testament doctrines? Tarsus a very multicultural city of liberal strata. In other words, it was written for the radically orthodox of the faiths, yet, if you are/were already liberal to moderate you don't even need the Bible... (like the kind Samaritan)
Josephus doesn't even record Herod's slaughter of the innocents in the opening of the book of Matthew. Doesn't it seem odd that Josephus writes of Herod but never mentions the slaughter of perhaps many thousands of infants?
I kinda see what you are saying, that Dale B. Martin got into that; how the Israelites had to choose, just how much greek or that Peter the Great influence, to allow in their walks with Yahweh?
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Sunesis
Yes, they did. Remember, Isreal rejected its Messiah, and the "last call" so to speak of the Apostles, that if Israel repented, Christ was ready to come back in his glory and they would enter the boo
cman
So what? I don't think Paul's intent was to have anyone turn towards him. Only to hear him out, I would suppose, and not some sort of following as indicated. Furthering my questioning of the reliab
Sunesis
Teachme, I believe the "something better" in Hebrews 11:40 was the coming Kingdom on earth promised in the OT and the better city, the New Jerusalem that Abraham looked for. There will be the heavenl
teachmevp
Their is this course, Dale B. Martin, it is a free down load course from Yale; this guy gets into Peter the Great, the influence this guy had, is a trip. I would say they turn to that spirit man teaching about Yeshua in those days; but also Pauls thorn, those of the circumcision with their knifes in their hands. Maybe this might help.
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teachmevp
Could one say they were lured away from Paul? It seems, all the Gentiles in those days worshiped, was some kind of three in one god or some form of something; could one make a twist off one these god things; and lure away people from Paul?
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DrWearWord
It says one thing in one place and says the total opposite in another..
Saved by grace, faith without works is dead.
The ambiguous God.
This is the style of the biblical writers since the very first verse in Genesis where we have not one beginning but two as related to time. (the beginning of time and the beginning of consciousness.)
They all became Christians and they all turned away too. This is so Christians never take the doctrine to seriously.
We have warnings of dire consequences for adding or deleting a word but "the spirits [words] of the prophets are subject to the prophets".
Somewhere betwixt the ambiguity we find a place for reasonable thought and tolerance.
The ambiguity is meant to foster tolerance.
When we lose tolerance we become totalitarian.
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teachmevp
Can one look at it as that parable of the seed? My boss the other day, ask me I talked this new guy that got hired on, about the bible, great guy, but I said to my boss, I think he is into those role model game things, I do not think the word would take root; I think one can easy get lured away, a lot of crazy stuff out their, how will that seed take root, Yahweh gives the increases, but we need to be aware of what kinda of water we use, does that make sense in a way?
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year2027
God first
thanks erkjohn
they became children of man they turn away from God
but other became children of God brothers to apostle Paul
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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teachmevp
That is a trip though, grace and all that stuff; can one say, depending on the fruit growing on the good ground, therein is grace; I look back at the kindness, Yahweh has had for my nothing life, so I try to grow fruit, but it is tuff thing to do in this crazy world. The crazy things this world has to lure one away; it seems like a bunch of fishhooks, which one do we nibble on, but then again we can get hooked; did I look down on Yahweh's kindness when I got hooked, and expecte grace? Tripe stuff.
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teachmevp
I camped out 6 days to see this Thin Lizzy concert, three days in to this camp out, I went to the other side of the building to join the party; I came stumbling back to my sleep bag, but it was gone; I left my post. My buddy was on the other side, I did not miss that show; Should one after they come to a fully realization of Yahweh's true kindness, expect grace by treating the blood of Yeshua as ordinary blood; I think back at that camp out, it was cold for those three remaining days, that cold reminds from time to time, I need to be more careful nowadays, me being from wild Olive tree, being grafted into that Olive tree their in Romans?
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teachmevp
This might help with your question; I heard once "America" the dude who was the heart of the band, who wrote the songs was a christian. Paul called out in a way to be a house with no name, if one listen to that song, it kinda seems our walk is like that horse in a way?
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Gen-2
I'm not sure that everyone turning away from Paul, equals - everyone turning away from Christ, but before that time there was the idea of I am of Paul, I am of Apollos and I am of Cephas [Peter] --- Splinter groups.... lol. Perhaps Timothy would be welcome where Paul was not due to divisions in that early church.
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DrWearWord
Wouldn't the words of Paul be the words of Christ in him and how does a "christian" differentiate? More ambiguity...
Romans 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
2 Corinthians 7:8
For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
Philemon 1:19
I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.
2 Peter 1:21 (Whole Chapter)
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Comment: Reliability?
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Gen-2
No. Are the words of A Christian, even a prophet, quotes from Christ? No. Can they be? Depends on what you believe, as to how you'd answer that. Many people think the whole thing is complete bunk. God, Christ, and all Christians included. It's easier for them that way.
To everyone, their own cup of tea, eh? But it is a very plausible answer to say that not all who turned away from Paul, ditched Christianity. There were others teaching while Paul was jailed and hauled out of Asia to Rome, for instance. People tend to forget their loyalty to the formerly present leaders Such as VPW and LCM, such is the case in the Way today I think, All have turned away from LCM, or they've left the Way if they haven't. He's been erased there.
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DrWearWord
Perhaps a better question is, Has God turned away from us?
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teachmevp
That is a good one, that in Gal., I am of this, and I am of that. Paul must of had a tuff time in those days.
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teachmevp
Has Yahweh turned away from us? Wow, that is deep. What if a man was told to do something by Yahweh, but turned his back on what he was told to do; like what Martindale did. Man made teachings creep into those texts, so if a man is told to make the correction, but did not, is it on Yahweh or the man? It is a trip how one man not doing something, so to speak, could effect the lives of so many. Trippe stuff.
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teachmevp
Listening or not listening; their are a lot of story's in the bible about people listening or not listening. Like this spirit teaching thing going on, that Martindale did finish taking out. Did Yahweh put that spirit teaching junk in his word, or did man? The body will not be aloud for that spirit teaching stuff to be gathered up, the announcement has been made, but if you did not dump that spirit teaching stuff, is it on Yahweh or you? Did Yahweh turn his back on you, or did Martindale?
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teachmevp
What if a Rev. or one of those functions in the body; say one of them heard this announcement, and said what a nut, and did not tell you; did Yahweh turn his back on you, or did one of the function of the body, were are many members in this body.
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Sunesis
Yes, they did. Remember, Isreal rejected its Messiah, and the "last call" so to speak of the Apostles, that if Israel repented, Christ was ready to come back in his glory and they would enter the book of Revelation, so to speak.
Also remember in Acts, Romans, I&II Corinthians, I and II Thessalonians, Hebrews and Galations - Paul had not yet received his revelation of the "one new man" the "new creation" the "one body."
During that time, it was Israel's hope that was taught and preached, and at that point, any Gentile who believed, was basically lucky to be "grafted in" and able to partake of Israel's hope - the new earth and heavenly jerusalem come to earth.
Now, along comes Ephesians and the rest of the prison epistles.
Remember, Israel had done the unthinkable - they had rejected their Messiah.
Uh oh - now what?
Well, now, God says, I will go to the Alien and Stranger, the one who had NO HOPE, absolutely no inheritance in Israel's hope, the one who was "without me" and could never know me. They had no Hope. They were adrift on the earth. Israel was my chosen fleshly people on earth. Through Israel, it was my intention that they spread my knowledge to the Gentiles.
But now, because of Israel's hardness, blindness, hearing they will not hear, seeing they will not see... I will go to the Gentile. I will give the revelation to Paul of a mystery I have kept hidden and not prophesised about in the OT. A plan I purposed in eternity, before Gen. 1:1. I will call out a body to live with me above the heavens, in Glory with me.
Whoa! Hold on there!! To a Jew, or a Gentile who had become a Christian during the Acts period, this was unthinkable.
They said, this was never, ever, written in the OT. You can't prove this Paul - it is not written! The priest could enter into the holy of holies in the temple once a year - signifying entrance into the Glory where God dwelt - but now you are saying Paul that the Gentiles who believe will live there with him - in God's glory????!!!!! You're nuts!
They walked away. All asia turned away.
Paul received the fullness of the revelation, the mystery, a new thing. He rarely used OT quotes to back it up - because its not there. They basically had to take it on faith that what he said was true.
I see it more as, there is a new heaven and earth coming that will dwell in God's light holy, pure, and without sin, and God, over time is calling people to believe and is going about populating all segments of the new earth and heaven. That's why new bodies will be needed. The laws of phyics as we know them will be folded up.
He is populating the new earth, the heavenly Jerusalem, I believe angels will stay in the heavens, and the one body - those who believe the prison epistles, will dwell in glory - the place (it is a literal place) above the heavenlies. All segments will be full of life - bodies terrestial and bodies celestial.
So, because of Paul's teaching, of putting aside Israel's hope, which was now in abeyance (Acts 28:28), and being given a commission by God to preach what happened and what comes next during this period of grace while Israel is "lo-ammi" - not my people - for now, Christ now functions as the head and builder of a new creation, a one body that will live in union with him as part of his body in glory in eternity, yes - people walked. Whoever heard of such a thing????
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Broken Arrow
Interesting points, Sunesis. I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion in regards to Paul, but you build a good case. What you say regarding Paul's not using the Old Testament is questionable. Romans and Galatians contain quite a few quotes. But I'm in danger of derailing this thread. Thank you for your post. It gives me something to think about.
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cman
So what?
I don't think Paul's intent was to have anyone turn towards him.
Only to hear him out, I would suppose, and not some sort of following as indicated.
Furthering my questioning of the reliability of the books of Timothy, or certainly their translations.
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TrustAndObey
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Abigail
While Paul may not spend a lot of time quoting the OT, he and Jesus both spent a lot of time discussing Jewish oral traditions that are not contained within the OT
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DrWearWord
How about if Paul and Jesus were "cunningly devised fables" created by visionary liberal Jews and Greek scribes of the first century to combat the racist Old Testament doctrines? Tarsus a very multicultural city of liberal strata. In other words, it was written for the radically orthodox of the faiths, yet, if you are/were already liberal to moderate you don't even need the Bible... (like the kind Samaritan)
Josephus doesn't even record Herod's slaughter of the innocents in the opening of the book of Matthew. Doesn't it seem odd that Josephus writes of Herod but never mentions the slaughter of perhaps many thousands of infants?
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teachmevp
I kinda see what you are saying, that Dale B. Martin got into that; how the Israelites had to choose, just how much greek or that Peter the Great influence, to allow in their walks with Yahweh?
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teachmevp
So as a result of the influence, their in lays the roots of that labial point of view?
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