quote:Otto Warburg MD(Nobel Prize winner) stated that his research showed cancer cells thrive in an oxygen poor environment. He believed that cancer was not a virus but cell mutation caused by oxygen deprivation at the cellular level.
Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia is a cancer which produces an overabundance of immature white blood cells called "blasts". This process starts in the marrow, a very oxygen rich area. He must have forgot about that one.
Dr. Donsbach has an alternative medicine treatment center in Rosarito Beach, Baja California, in Mexico. It is about 1 hour from San Diego, California. He knows a lot about oxygen therapy also. I'm not sure on costs, etc., but he does sell oxygen cocktails to increase oxygen in the cells.
I know you are the resident expert in this particular field. I am a beginner by comparison and I use herbs in teas as treatments for some ailments and illnesses my family had and has had. When my kids got colic--I gave them peppermint and chamomile tea. Worked like a dream. I know of medical uses for vegetation that are very good for treating skin disorders.
HOWEVER--
I have an immune deficiency syndrome--CFIDS. I have seen others with this same illness go to herbalists like you, and are given recommendations for boosting, improving, and otherwise using herbs to make them feel better.
I have seen them fail dismally and some people have become more ill because they stopped their medical treatment and applied the herbal lore instead. I am not saying that you are one who recommends this action... I am saying that I have SEEN this happen with my own eyes. I have seen the phrase "ALL NATURAL" used to tout the sale of a substance. BEING ALL NATURAL DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS A GOOD SUBSTANCE TO BE TAKING INSIDE YOUR BODY. Arsenic, Belladonna, Foxglove, and Cyanide are ALL NATURAL
AND THEY WILL KILL YOU!
Manure is all natural too!
I firmly believe in the herbalist lore. I know that there are substances that grow that can do great good for many MINORillnesses.
I find it objectionable to the max that a herbalist would even deign to treat someone with cancer.
I have personal experience with battling cancer. My husband Tim is battling, (and winning) his battle with pancreatic cancer. When he was diagnosed in August he was given a 2% chance of survival for 6 to 9 months with or without chemotherapy. He has been getting CHOP Chemotherapy with Rituxan every three weeks with concomitant treatment with prednisone. His satellite tumors have vanished and the tumor itself (which was the size of a mans fist) has reduced by half. He gets his last chemo in Dec, he was first told he would get it till May.
Is it just the chemo that is killing this cancer? NO. It is chemo and BELIEVING that is winning this battle.
Do I think that seeing an herbalist would make this treatment even more effective?
Kay, Thank you for your thoughts and experiences. I am sorry that they are not more positive. It is not my intention to get this thread off-track, it's intention was for folks to share what they know.
However;
I must take issue with your belief that your husband is overcoming his dis-ease with drug therapy and believing. As we were all taught in the ministry, and in the Corps, God is a God of principle and the world was formed on principle. Not chaos or whim. Adhere to the principles and you reap the benefits, attempt to break the principles and you will reap the results. For example, the "law of gravity". You may temporarily live above it from time to time in different activities, but ultimately all life must yield to gravity here on earth. Same with oxygen, you can hold your breath for a while, but sooner or later, in order to sustain life, you must breathe.
I like you, at one time believed in medical science and in "believing". I fellowshipped with many nurses and doctors. But, especially, after my training in the ministry, I REALLY BELIEVED THAT HEALING SUCH AS THOSE HEALED AT THE SHADOW OF PETER IN ACTS WAS AVAILABLE. My studies in the ministry were healing, the use of the word physician, how diet played an integral role in the 40 years Israel spent wandering ( and there was not a feeble knee among them.) I studied what was the original diet (in the beginning and in the garden of Eden); I studied the use of herbs, shrubs, trees used in the BIBLE. Somehow, going forth as a leader and worker, I could not see "our people" our family exemplifying the health that is apparently promised to us as believers. I still prayed for the same number of people, had lift lists with requests for terminally ill relatives (and believers). I continued to ask, why, if we were tapping into the greatness of the revelation given to us, now Sons and Daughters of God, why weren't we any closer to making the Word a reality? WHY??????
I asked leadership more senior than myself and their reply was that we weren't believing big enough. What???? C'mon, that can only suffice as an answer for just so long.
I asked my Heavenly Father for help- why, why, why? I was like a 2 year old. Why? What are we missing in this very life-threatening area of our lives? I make no claim for snow and gas pumps here, I just kept going back to one word "knowledge". Peter states God has given us everything pertaining to life and godliness- well, if that is true, why are we still praying for things?????? Ephesians prayer that is that the eyes of your understanding being enlightened with the knowledge... Hosea- For my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. It kept coming up and I then asked God to work with me to obtain the knowledge. My journey has not been one of being gullible, or flip, or easy. I have spent 18 years apart from the ministry work I did on healing researching and practicing- mostly on myself and then family. I took this undertaking with the same commitment of being a sold out doulos bond slave for God (a dog soldier). Due to ministry commitments, I could not obtain employment which provided affordable health insurance, so "believing" was all we had. I remember a Corps person stating, "well do what you have to in order to feel better- remember dr. wierwille said i don't care how the baby's born, just show me the baby!"
I have given you this above information for two reasons- one: most drugs and medical therapies violate the principle of the human body. There is always a trade off. Always a compromise that must be made maybe not right away, but somewhere down the line in that person's life, they will succumb, in part or whole to the drug or therapy's actions many years ago. For every medically approved methodology, there IS a natural remedy. And I believe, that God will show you if you ask him. But it takes persistance, because it flies in the face of the adversary's steal, kill and destroy plan. We as a society ASKED the medical community and drug manufacturers for this "cure in a bottle" in the 1900s. They gave it to us- but did not know or tell of the price we would pay beyond the prescription cost. It has only been in the last 10 years particularly that the public has now cried out, refusing to accept side effects and after effects. Twenty years ago, the AMA and drug manufacturers laughed off the philosophy that diet determines health- now they are no longer laughing, but publishing in JAMA that a diet that has fruits, vegetables, less meat, has shown positive results in extending life and lowering illness. They have also gone as far as stating that most of our modern diseases are of our own doing. They are also now promoting the benefits of exercise, deep breathing, laughter as great "medicines". It would be my prayer that you rejoice in your husband's healing, but that you make it your believing (action) to research how to avoid creating this disease again by proper nutrition, etc. The patient of whom this thread is about is not as fortunate as your husband- all books and research state that the medical field can do little on this cancer- that it is terminal. Period. So, "why sit we here till we die? arise therefore." So when you state that there are herbs that are poisonous, most pharmaceuticals are too.
Second: I want it understood that I appreciate your poor experience with "herbalists". I know they are out there- un-schooled and un-Godly. And this is why I made the decision not only to be educated and prayful in my work. This does not however, limit our Creator, nor does it invalidate what He has left us here on earth for health and healing. Please do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Our natural instincts gave us the ability to discern the herbs and plant life for our needs. Being civilized has robbed us of this natural ability. So, I have spent years researching ( I learned alot about research in the ministry) herbs; studied under learned herbalists; grew my own; made my own teas, etc. I do not post at the Greasespot to convert anyone or to change anyone's mind. I am not here to get any glory; nor to obtain your blessing for my knowledge or belief. My teachers Dr. Christopher and Richard Schulze both taught me that all you can do is offer the opportunity for those who want what it was that I wanted when I started. From the e mails I received, there are a few people.
I do not have a terminal illness. Neither does anyone in my family. We have not required prescription medications, doctors or hospital services for years. I continue, every day to change those habits which detract from my vitality and continue to learn about true "food" for the body as well as herbs.
My prayer, Kay, is though this response may be a little wordy, and a little pointed, that you ask the Father for knowledge in the area of life and health for your family. The AMA, to some people's thinking is the same as God-their sufficiency when it comes to this area. Break principle by not caring for and properly feeding the body and run to Dr. Fix-it to cut it out surgically or remedy it by drugs.
I realize that my work is different that what everyone normally has accepted. However, it does not mean that it is necessarily wrong. Our philosophy is simple- empowerment of the patient. You are taught and you take back your own health rather than relying on someone else.
I understand your intentions. I understand that you have your system as rooted and grounded in experience as my own. I give you great credit that you BELIEVE that your approach to health is correct.
I have never been one to simply say 'oh ok' and follow blindly. I have always been one to question, test, push the boundaries, and even flagrantly walk opposite traffic when I thought I was right and the rest of the world wrong. I have been run over (rhetorically) many times and I still stuck to what I believed was correct. I have been right more often than I was wrong.
I have been a medical para-professional for 30 years. I have been a Emergency room physicians assistant, an EMT, a Paramedic, and most recently a Nursing Assistant working with elderly with Alzheimers Disease. I am not a doctor nor am I a nurse. I have seen medicine work, and I have seen it fail abysmally. The same for an herbal approach with an eye to alleviate or even cure Alzheimers Disease, CFIDS, Fibromyalgia, Lupus, MS, and a host of other autoimmune illnesses. For the record, I have seen medical treatment for these illnesses fail as well. I have seen with my own eyes, results from modern day medical approaches far more often than I have seen results from applying herb lore. I spent hours on the web and at our library looking into CHOP Therapy and Rituxan treatment before Tim even started chemotherapy. I looked at herbal treatment as well, and I looked into a business called Cancer Treatment Centers too. Their approach is total body treatment-nutrition, chemo, meditation, etc. I have researched medical treatment before, with husband #2's cardiac problems. We did not always go with what those cardiologists suggested and I trusted God to tell me what was truth and what was a lie. Husband #2 lived nearly 10 years past his initial diagnosis, and he died from not managing his insulin dependent diabetes after we were divorced, not his cardiac problems. (It seems that I am to learn how to believe for my husband's physical health in this lifetime!) When Tim was initially diagnosed I asked God to tell me if I could trust what those doctors were telling me. I got a resounding YES.
Like gravity, our genetic blueprint follows laws too.
My youngest son's father had the same dental pattern as I did. Matt has teeth like his fathers and mine, and genetically there was zero chance he wouldn't. My family has glaucoma rife on both sides of the family. Genetically, I had a nearly nil chance NOT to have glaucoma, and I do.
Medical science can't go against genetics, and herbal lore can't either. Believing or not if the blueprint for cancer, diabetes, blue eyes, brown hair, hair loss, big hips, small feet, MS, and even being artistic is there, you're stuck with those traits. No amount of believing will keep those things from happening. What I can do is manage within those physical boundaries and even 'get past' some of them.
I understand that you tried to function within boundaries as well. The restrictions placed upon those who were still in twi, were absurd in the extreme. I got into trouble with leadership because I saw things that weren't right and called them on the carpet. I told them that if God had wanted us to walk with SPIRITUAL KNOWLEGE ONLY, our 5 senses and our common sense would be turned off at the moment of salvation. I know that God expects us to get all the information available before making decisions. Get a grip!
Diet--
Yepper that is vital. Tim has only lost 25 pounds total. Yes, he has been up and down like a zipper, but he is maintaing his weight. We eat very healthy, very low fat. He drinks gallons of water, and takes vitamins and when he can't eat, we use nutritional supplements like sweet puddings and we have even used Ensure in a shake with ice cream. He has lost hair, (he didn't have much to lose on his head! Bald men are sexy!)and at times he has looked really ill. He has the prednisone moon face, and dark circles around his eyes. He recovers faster every treatment. Why? Because he believes that this treatment is curing his cancer.
Cancer is NOT always fatal. As a realist I looked into the statistics of pancreatic cancer. It killed Michael Landon--quickly. I quoted the statistics in my last email. Those are just a guide--statistical data is just that, data. It shows an indication of where the numbers fall-there are always those outside the bell curve. Tim is one of those whose statistical chances of long life are literally off the chart.
While I trust Tim's doctors to inform us of what is available to treat his illness, I DO NOT PUT MY TRUST AND BELIEVING IN ANYTHING BUT GOD. Tim's oncologist knows we have thousands of people praying for him and his health. Dr. P agrees that mental health and prayer can make his job easier and he will take help wherever it is from. We have discussed the studies done where people were prayed for--nd they got better sooner than those who were not--even if they did not know that they were being prayed for.
I do not think that your work as a master herbalist is bs. I believe that you have just one of the keys to mental, physical, and even spiritual health.
One of the big complaints I have about herbal treatment, (you've already heard me out about ALL NATURAL) is that it is NOT standardized. There is no litmus test that brand xyz herb is the same dosage, strength or purity as brand abc. Vitamins are great. But some should not be taken in mega doses, as the body can't handle quantities that huge and some are even toxic. If there were a way to guarantee consistency then I might not have as huge a problem with herbs etc.
Poison. Yep chemo is poison, so is laetrile. I know how much chemo Tim is getting each and every treatment. If I buy laetrile from my local health food store, I don't know what the dosage is. That concerns me immensely!
I believe that God expects us to use common sense when walking through this life. It was explained to me when I started attending twi fellowships in the early 70's that God put things like immunizations for babies on earth to bless His people. 'Natural' man got them by grace. I'm not sure that isn't still true.
As far as 'minisry' committments overshadowing your ability to provide health insurance for your family--geeez! I left twi because I was not about to let some dumb jerk tell me how to listen to God about my family. I guess being stiff necked and unyielding got me out before too much damage was done to my brain. I read this statement to my husband and he said it is harsh.
I never said I was a diplomat--I said I was opinionated and didn't care if ANYONE on the planet agreed or disagreed with me. I know from personal experience what has worked for me in my life and what hasn't. I am thankful for you and your family and that they did not have to deal with life threatening illness.
I think you are expert at what you do. I even have respect for you and your knowlege. I have seen people taken to the cleaners by someone who has represented that they have the ONLY answers. I know you are not like that-but in my opinion you are exceedingly rare.
quote:I must take issue with your belief that your husband is overcoming his dis-ease with drug therapy and believing.
Masterherbalist, with all due respect, how do you take issue with something that the evidence suggests is working?
Are you saying that the medical treatment has little or nothing to do with Tim's results?
While I accept that natural medicine and wholistic treatments has it's merits and can be a valid form of treatment, It seem to me that you have taken an angle againt modern medicine, similar to the angle that modern medicine took againt chiropractic and naturopathy. That is, deny it's validity in spite of the apparant positive results. This does not seem too wise to me.
Naturopathy, wholistic medicine, herbalist, etc have slammed the medical community, especially the drug companies for being money mongers, ie. - it's all about the dollar.
But when asked where the double blind studies are that can validate the claims made by alternative medicine and it's advocates, the naturalists have bemoaned the lack of money to fund such studies, claiming that the drug companies can afford it. But, the truth is today, that the herb, vitamin, naturopathy ornganic food, and other related industries are now enjoying a multi-billion dollar industry and can't or won't get their acts together to fund valid scientific studies to support their claims. What's up with that? It seem now that they, while enjoying profits unheard of in the past are being the greedy one's and don't want to spend the money. Or they are afraid that valid studies might hurt their industry and their profits.
Don't get me wrong, I am a believer in a wholistic approach, but it seems to me that there are too many wild claims, unsupported by anything but theory and personal testimony that need to be sorted though before one can make sensible and effective cholces.
I was so whipped up about the other stuff, I didn't see that Masterherbalist made that statement.
I guess it is the old 'see first--then believe' thing.
I didn't even think of all the money that the companies that make 'dietary supplements' (for that is what they are merchandised as) are making in today's market. Great point--thanks!
Sadly, it seems many claimed "natural" treatments are ones of last resort and regrettably many of them are totally unsubstantiated (except anectdotal evidence).
Some of those people are down right quacks who get rich off of these sorts of treatments!
It is rather disgusting to see some prey on individuals desperate for any type of hope.
Many of these people, however, are good intentioned but I beleive it would be negligent not to require some sort of verifiable and repeatable evidence before anyone tried any of these sorts of treatments.
Having said that there is a good deal of evidence supporting a holostic approach to treatment of cancer patients. The Cancer Treatment Centers apply this and very healthy diets seem to increase survival rates. There is also indications that personal (rather than cold clinical) approaches help.
Prayer and postive attitudes are all ways to encourage the body to fight the disease but I also believe God gave us a brain for good reason and medicine is an outgrowth of our combined brain power!
I couldn't take Tim to Cancer Treatment Centers because our health insurance would not pay for it. Apparently, CTC is still thought of as 'experimental'.
I had to battle family when we told them that Tim had cancer. Everyone had some friend, neighbor, aunt, uncle....who had either beaten cancer with some rhubarb mixture from some guy they worked with, (or whatever). The toughest thing to convince them of was that Tim will survive this! They were all asking me what we were going to do with his body, and how I was going to make it through life without him! I was apalled that everyone was so willing to consign him to the dirt without even considering that treatment would work!
People of today believe this just as much as 1st century folks believed that dippin' in a pool of water would heal them or touching a hankie that the MOG touched.
Maybe God is alittle bigger than our little box vision of Him.
No disrespect, but whenever the reasons for some problem come down to a conspiracy theory, you might as well file it away with the rest of them.
Herbal medicine is yet another case of 10% meat, 90% breadcrumbs in the meatball. For every penicillin, pseudoephedrine, or aspirin, there's ten dubious superweeds.
Of course, if the government weren't colluding with the UFOs to combat the Illuminati's manipulations of the AMA and the suppression of the 200-mpg carburetor, we'd know the Truth™. Why else do the drug companies keep paying for doctors to attend those seminars in Bermuda? Gotta keep the Bermuda Triangle filled with souls from time to time to appease the Evil-Powers-That-Be.
Are the medical companies the victims here? Hell, no! But are the chemists and doctors who are trying to develop these new drugs in the laboratory sitting around twiddling their mustaches during the coffee breaks, plotting how to crush the herbalists? Hardly. Can a chiropractor help your back pain? Yep. Can adjusting your spine cure the flu? No, regardless of the AMA's conspiracy against them, too.
One more thing. If the herbal way is really Nature's Plan, what are you supposed to do if the one plant that will cure your disease grows 3,000 miles away? What about all the Chinese herbalists who also prescribe endangered animal parts for impotence? Anyone really want to take Powdered Rhino Horn for erectile dysfunction?
These herbal cures do bear looking into, but I sure wouldn't want to bet my life on a bunch of anecdotes.
Thank you for your tremendous story of believing and fighting for Tim's life! I must confess that I did remember your medical background and have been reviewing the lift list information.
But see, folks, Kay is EXACTLY what I am talking about. She is not just blindly accepting the statistics. She has done some homework- is there room to improve- always! But to see this kind of fighting for someone's health with this type of compassion is just what I have been trying to stir up. Agree with me or don't, just get MAD and REFUSE TO LOSE!!
Goey- the point that the Masterherbalist was making about "believing" and drug therapy was simple. Remember TWI? Remember what you were taught about believing? Ok, enough of that. Kay here got as much info as she could and kept digging and digging and working. This is true believing in action. Also drug therapy will produce results, but my point was at what cost? For example, radiation and chemo by and large poison the body. Sure it "kills" cancer, but it also hurts the body. Many of my students are people whose immune systems are now and require the careful attentiveness to rebuilding by nutrition and by cleansing and rebuilding the liver. I have seen patients "cured" of cancer only to succumb to liver failure (from the treatment).
Zixar- I have to say that our Creator was truely smart. He placed those things that we need for our health in our own backyards. No need to go to China for ginseng, we have our own in the good ole US. The Native peoples used what was on their land and were taught from the elders if you could not find this herb, you could use that one. As for standardization: the great thing about that is that the Creator has done that in the herbs in your area. Dr. Christopher taught us a great principle: eat under your own fig tree. The echinacea in my area is specifically for use in our climate and therefore for the inhabitants. Sure Utah echinacea is good, but it differs from ours in that we live in a tropical area and Utah is mountainous- the needs to live in each area are different.
What is really amazing is that Hippocrates was right: Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine. Do you realize how many people we have taught principles to who have regained their health just by what they ate? No exotic herbs here. Just good ole "herbs" like spinach, lettuce, peppers, onions, garlic, carrots, etc, etc.
Please don't take my handle as someone who is promoting a one-sided; we-all-gotta-eat-herbs-or-else philosophy. To the contrary. What I have learned in 20 years, I do not expect anyone to swallow in 5 minutes on the computer. But, I have to express, I am absolutely blown away and impressed with the dynamic and enthusiam and love that Kay 1952 has put in this thread. It should be its own thread titled: Don't take No for an answer. Our heavenly Father's purposes and ways are truely magnificent. I certainly hope that the readers get out of your posts the inspiration that I have gotten.
Masterherbalst--I hadn't thought of what I was doing for Tim, (and selfishly sometimes for ME) as compassion!
I am just one who has never taken the status quo for an answer. I have always believed that there is more than one right answer to any one question. I have found (rarely) that there is only one answer.
I understand that food is healing. I am a large woman, and a wonderful cook. I truly understand the phrase 'comfort food'! It lives at our house!
We might not have money to share, but we always have food! The rule of thumb here is if you leave my house hungry, it's your own fault!
I have had 3 husbands, and Tim is the best! I want him here with me and our children and grandchildren! We have a new grandchild due in March! If we had believed what the stats said, Tim would be gone before that happened. Not available! Period.
Keep your work foremost! I will say that I wish we had someone of your caliber here in Janesville. Most people with CFIDS see homeopaths, because traditional medicine has no answers regarding the treatment of it. I am fortunate, (or maybe stiff necked and unyielding enough!) to know that I do know all that is available for treatment of CFIDS, and I have a treatment that works for ME!
( I also don't think that I have ever been called inspriational before!)
If you can buy laetrile (aka amygdalin, vitamin B17, B17)-which is NOT a vitamin, btw- in the USA, please notify the FTC and/or the FDA. It is a cyanide compound derived from apricot pits. The FDA administration has banned its use in the USA due to side effects from the build-up of cyanide in some people.
If a compound has a physiological effect, it will also have side effects. This is true of "natural" or pharmaceutical compounds, as there is no "magic bullet" which can produce an effect on only one body organ or system. A side effect is only an effect not originally intended.
Those oxygen therapies have not been shown to increase oxygen levels in the cells. Not that increasing oxygen levels in the cells has been shown to treat cancer, either.
Some herbs may have great potential; many have been used to produce some very effective medications. Some of the worst problems right now include:
- herbs and supplements on the market lack scientific proof of safety and efficacy.
- herbs and supplements are not regulated by the FDA; potency varies considerably and many have been found to contain contaminants such as mercury and lead.
Diet and exercise are known to be important factors in good health. Medical practitioners do not deny this. I do not understand why this fallacy keeps cropping up, but if you doubt it, ask any doctor. I have yet to find one that does not agree that diet and exercise contribute to good health, and I have asked many.
Until I know that herbal preparation is safe, effective, contains the proper dosage,and is free from contaminants, I think I'll pass.
I guess I haven't thought of it as courage and conviction. I learned how to listen to God when I was walking alone. So? If I didn't listen I found myself a$$ deep in alligators with no direction as to how to get out of that pond! After the millionteenth time I was being chewed by those alligators it occured to me that I knew the answer all along.
i do believe in the hope, and when faced with aforementioned difficulties, I apply those beliefs for strength and courage
SISTER: Donna, diagnosed with brain tumor at 30, nine years later still alive, "broke records", thanks to the marvels of science, "creating a new standard for the statistics"
Donna at 39, bald, thin and "ugly"
Her now 15 year old daughter, Natasha
anyhow, she want's to be a cancer research physician now
somehow there IS a bigger plan than we can quite figure out
i won't even go into the "crazy" approaches to lifes ill's that i have witnessed in my life
my favorite phrase emblazened on the back of my guitar neck
"Whatever it .... takes!!!"......the "human" "spirit" seems to get there .....and then it don't
i would have Donna here for selfish reasons
i smoke an incredible amount of cigarettes, i'm going to die, i'm sure of it ahhh, the wages of sin ....and NO i don't want sympathy, attention or least of all e-mails
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Righteous Brother
Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia is a cancer which produces an overabundance of immature white blood cells called "blasts". This process starts in the marrow, a very oxygen rich area. He must have forgot about that one.
RB
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wayferlookin
With the talk of oxygen deprivation, I though I would suggest this website:
www.donsbach.com
Dr. Donsbach has an alternative medicine treatment center in Rosarito Beach, Baja California, in Mexico. It is about 1 hour from San Diego, California. He knows a lot about oxygen therapy also. I'm not sure on costs, etc., but he does sell oxygen cocktails to increase oxygen in the cells.
Ex-Staffer Doesn't Work Over 37 Hours Now
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Kit Sober
I know I hate it.
I can always pray against it.
I don't always see it go.
But devil will never be able to say I let it stay in peace.
always hopefully,
Kit Sober
I love to hear you laugh -- God
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Kay1952
Masterherbalist---
I know you are the resident expert in this particular field. I am a beginner by comparison and I use herbs in teas as treatments for some ailments and illnesses my family had and has had. When my kids got colic--I gave them peppermint and chamomile tea. Worked like a dream. I know of medical uses for vegetation that are very good for treating skin disorders.
HOWEVER--
I have an immune deficiency syndrome--CFIDS. I have seen others with this same illness go to herbalists like you, and are given recommendations for boosting, improving, and otherwise using herbs to make them feel better.
I have seen them fail dismally and some people have become more ill because they stopped their medical treatment and applied the herbal lore instead. I am not saying that you are one who recommends this action... I am saying that I have SEEN this happen with my own eyes. I have seen the phrase "ALL NATURAL" used to tout the sale of a substance. BEING ALL NATURAL DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS A GOOD SUBSTANCE TO BE TAKING INSIDE YOUR BODY. Arsenic, Belladonna, Foxglove, and Cyanide are ALL NATURAL
AND THEY WILL KILL YOU!
Manure is all natural too!
I firmly believe in the herbalist lore. I know that there are substances that grow that can do great good for many MINORillnesses.
I find it objectionable to the max that a herbalist would even deign to treat someone with cancer.
I have personal experience with battling cancer. My husband Tim is battling, (and winning) his battle with pancreatic cancer. When he was diagnosed in August he was given a 2% chance of survival for 6 to 9 months with or without chemotherapy. He has been getting CHOP Chemotherapy with Rituxan every three weeks with concomitant treatment with prednisone. His satellite tumors have vanished and the tumor itself (which was the size of a mans fist) has reduced by half. He gets his last chemo in Dec, he was first told he would get it till May.
Is it just the chemo that is killing this cancer? NO. It is chemo and BELIEVING that is winning this battle.
Do I think that seeing an herbalist would make this treatment even more effective?
NO!
Just think about this!
Kay
Kay1952
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masterherbalist
Kay, Thank you for your thoughts and experiences. I am sorry that they are not more positive. It is not my intention to get this thread off-track, it's intention was for folks to share what they know.
However;
I must take issue with your belief that your husband is overcoming his dis-ease with drug therapy and believing. As we were all taught in the ministry, and in the Corps, God is a God of principle and the world was formed on principle. Not chaos or whim. Adhere to the principles and you reap the benefits, attempt to break the principles and you will reap the results. For example, the "law of gravity". You may temporarily live above it from time to time in different activities, but ultimately all life must yield to gravity here on earth. Same with oxygen, you can hold your breath for a while, but sooner or later, in order to sustain life, you must breathe.
I like you, at one time believed in medical science and in "believing". I fellowshipped with many nurses and doctors. But, especially, after my training in the ministry, I REALLY BELIEVED THAT HEALING SUCH AS THOSE HEALED AT THE SHADOW OF PETER IN ACTS WAS AVAILABLE. My studies in the ministry were healing, the use of the word physician, how diet played an integral role in the 40 years Israel spent wandering ( and there was not a feeble knee among them.) I studied what was the original diet (in the beginning and in the garden of Eden); I studied the use of herbs, shrubs, trees used in the BIBLE. Somehow, going forth as a leader and worker, I could not see "our people" our family exemplifying the health that is apparently promised to us as believers. I still prayed for the same number of people, had lift lists with requests for terminally ill relatives (and believers). I continued to ask, why, if we were tapping into the greatness of the revelation given to us, now Sons and Daughters of God, why weren't we any closer to making the Word a reality? WHY??????
I asked leadership more senior than myself and their reply was that we weren't believing big enough. What???? C'mon, that can only suffice as an answer for just so long.
I asked my Heavenly Father for help- why, why, why? I was like a 2 year old. Why? What are we missing in this very life-threatening area of our lives? I make no claim for snow and gas pumps here, I just kept going back to one word "knowledge". Peter states God has given us everything pertaining to life and godliness- well, if that is true, why are we still praying for things?????? Ephesians prayer that is that the eyes of your understanding being enlightened with the knowledge... Hosea- For my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. It kept coming up and I then asked God to work with me to obtain the knowledge. My journey has not been one of being gullible, or flip, or easy. I have spent 18 years apart from the ministry work I did on healing researching and practicing- mostly on myself and then family. I took this undertaking with the same commitment of being a sold out doulos bond slave for God (a dog soldier). Due to ministry commitments, I could not obtain employment which provided affordable health insurance, so "believing" was all we had. I remember a Corps person stating, "well do what you have to in order to feel better- remember dr. wierwille said i don't care how the baby's born, just show me the baby!"
I have given you this above information for two reasons- one: most drugs and medical therapies violate the principle of the human body. There is always a trade off. Always a compromise that must be made maybe not right away, but somewhere down the line in that person's life, they will succumb, in part or whole to the drug or therapy's actions many years ago. For every medically approved methodology, there IS a natural remedy. And I believe, that God will show you if you ask him. But it takes persistance, because it flies in the face of the adversary's steal, kill and destroy plan. We as a society ASKED the medical community and drug manufacturers for this "cure in a bottle" in the 1900s. They gave it to us- but did not know or tell of the price we would pay beyond the prescription cost. It has only been in the last 10 years particularly that the public has now cried out, refusing to accept side effects and after effects. Twenty years ago, the AMA and drug manufacturers laughed off the philosophy that diet determines health- now they are no longer laughing, but publishing in JAMA that a diet that has fruits, vegetables, less meat, has shown positive results in extending life and lowering illness. They have also gone as far as stating that most of our modern diseases are of our own doing. They are also now promoting the benefits of exercise, deep breathing, laughter as great "medicines". It would be my prayer that you rejoice in your husband's healing, but that you make it your believing (action) to research how to avoid creating this disease again by proper nutrition, etc. The patient of whom this thread is about is not as fortunate as your husband- all books and research state that the medical field can do little on this cancer- that it is terminal. Period. So, "why sit we here till we die? arise therefore." So when you state that there are herbs that are poisonous, most pharmaceuticals are too.
Second: I want it understood that I appreciate your poor experience with "herbalists". I know they are out there- un-schooled and un-Godly. And this is why I made the decision not only to be educated and prayful in my work. This does not however, limit our Creator, nor does it invalidate what He has left us here on earth for health and healing. Please do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Our natural instincts gave us the ability to discern the herbs and plant life for our needs. Being civilized has robbed us of this natural ability. So, I have spent years researching ( I learned alot about research in the ministry) herbs; studied under learned herbalists; grew my own; made my own teas, etc. I do not post at the Greasespot to convert anyone or to change anyone's mind. I am not here to get any glory; nor to obtain your blessing for my knowledge or belief. My teachers Dr. Christopher and Richard Schulze both taught me that all you can do is offer the opportunity for those who want what it was that I wanted when I started. From the e mails I received, there are a few people.
I do not have a terminal illness. Neither does anyone in my family. We have not required prescription medications, doctors or hospital services for years. I continue, every day to change those habits which detract from my vitality and continue to learn about true "food" for the body as well as herbs.
My prayer, Kay, is though this response may be a little wordy, and a little pointed, that you ask the Father for knowledge in the area of life and health for your family. The AMA, to some people's thinking is the same as God-their sufficiency when it comes to this area. Break principle by not caring for and properly feeding the body and run to Dr. Fix-it to cut it out surgically or remedy it by drugs.
I realize that my work is different that what everyone normally has accepted. However, it does not mean that it is necessarily wrong. Our philosophy is simple- empowerment of the patient. You are taught and you take back your own health rather than relying on someone else.
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Kay1952
It couldn't be more appropriate.
I understand your intentions. I understand that you have your system as rooted and grounded in experience as my own. I give you great credit that you BELIEVE that your approach to health is correct.
I have never been one to simply say 'oh ok' and follow blindly. I have always been one to question, test, push the boundaries, and even flagrantly walk opposite traffic when I thought I was right and the rest of the world wrong. I have been run over (rhetorically) many times and I still stuck to what I believed was correct. I have been right more often than I was wrong.
I have been a medical para-professional for 30 years. I have been a Emergency room physicians assistant, an EMT, a Paramedic, and most recently a Nursing Assistant working with elderly with Alzheimers Disease. I am not a doctor nor am I a nurse. I have seen medicine work, and I have seen it fail abysmally. The same for an herbal approach with an eye to alleviate or even cure Alzheimers Disease, CFIDS, Fibromyalgia, Lupus, MS, and a host of other autoimmune illnesses. For the record, I have seen medical treatment for these illnesses fail as well. I have seen with my own eyes, results from modern day medical approaches far more often than I have seen results from applying herb lore. I spent hours on the web and at our library looking into CHOP Therapy and Rituxan treatment before Tim even started chemotherapy. I looked at herbal treatment as well, and I looked into a business called Cancer Treatment Centers too. Their approach is total body treatment-nutrition, chemo, meditation, etc. I have researched medical treatment before, with husband #2's cardiac problems. We did not always go with what those cardiologists suggested and I trusted God to tell me what was truth and what was a lie. Husband #2 lived nearly 10 years past his initial diagnosis, and he died from not managing his insulin dependent diabetes after we were divorced, not his cardiac problems. (It seems that I am to learn how to believe for my husband's physical health in this lifetime!) When Tim was initially diagnosed I asked God to tell me if I could trust what those doctors were telling me. I got a resounding YES.
Like gravity, our genetic blueprint follows laws too.
My youngest son's father had the same dental pattern as I did. Matt has teeth like his fathers and mine, and genetically there was zero chance he wouldn't. My family has glaucoma rife on both sides of the family. Genetically, I had a nearly nil chance NOT to have glaucoma, and I do.
Medical science can't go against genetics, and herbal lore can't either. Believing or not if the blueprint for cancer, diabetes, blue eyes, brown hair, hair loss, big hips, small feet, MS, and even being artistic is there, you're stuck with those traits. No amount of believing will keep those things from happening. What I can do is manage within those physical boundaries and even 'get past' some of them.
I understand that you tried to function within boundaries as well. The restrictions placed upon those who were still in twi, were absurd in the extreme. I got into trouble with leadership because I saw things that weren't right and called them on the carpet. I told them that if God had wanted us to walk with SPIRITUAL KNOWLEGE ONLY, our 5 senses and our common sense would be turned off at the moment of salvation. I know that God expects us to get all the information available before making decisions. Get a grip!
Diet--
Yepper that is vital. Tim has only lost 25 pounds total. Yes, he has been up and down like a zipper, but he is maintaing his weight. We eat very healthy, very low fat. He drinks gallons of water, and takes vitamins and when he can't eat, we use nutritional supplements like sweet puddings and we have even used Ensure in a shake with ice cream. He has lost hair, (he didn't have much to lose on his head! Bald men are sexy!)and at times he has looked really ill. He has the prednisone moon face, and dark circles around his eyes. He recovers faster every treatment. Why? Because he believes that this treatment is curing his cancer.
Cancer is NOT always fatal. As a realist I looked into the statistics of pancreatic cancer. It killed Michael Landon--quickly. I quoted the statistics in my last email. Those are just a guide--statistical data is just that, data. It shows an indication of where the numbers fall-there are always those outside the bell curve. Tim is one of those whose statistical chances of long life are literally off the chart.
While I trust Tim's doctors to inform us of what is available to treat his illness, I DO NOT PUT MY TRUST AND BELIEVING IN ANYTHING BUT GOD. Tim's oncologist knows we have thousands of people praying for him and his health. Dr. P agrees that mental health and prayer can make his job easier and he will take help wherever it is from. We have discussed the studies done where people were prayed for--nd they got better sooner than those who were not--even if they did not know that they were being prayed for.
I do not think that your work as a master herbalist is bs. I believe that you have just one of the keys to mental, physical, and even spiritual health.
One of the big complaints I have about herbal treatment, (you've already heard me out about ALL NATURAL) is that it is NOT standardized. There is no litmus test that brand xyz herb is the same dosage, strength or purity as brand abc. Vitamins are great. But some should not be taken in mega doses, as the body can't handle quantities that huge and some are even toxic. If there were a way to guarantee consistency then I might not have as huge a problem with herbs etc.
Poison. Yep chemo is poison, so is laetrile. I know how much chemo Tim is getting each and every treatment. If I buy laetrile from my local health food store, I don't know what the dosage is. That concerns me immensely!
I believe that God expects us to use common sense when walking through this life. It was explained to me when I started attending twi fellowships in the early 70's that God put things like immunizations for babies on earth to bless His people. 'Natural' man got them by grace. I'm not sure that isn't still true.
As far as 'minisry' committments overshadowing your ability to provide health insurance for your family--geeez! I left twi because I was not about to let some dumb jerk tell me how to listen to God about my family. I guess being stiff necked and unyielding got me out before too much damage was done to my brain. I read this statement to my husband and he said it is harsh.
I never said I was a diplomat--I said I was opinionated and didn't care if ANYONE on the planet agreed or disagreed with me. I know from personal experience what has worked for me in my life and what hasn't. I am thankful for you and your family and that they did not have to deal with life threatening illness.
I think you are expert at what you do. I even have respect for you and your knowlege. I have seen people taken to the cleaners by someone who has represented that they have the ONLY answers. I know you are not like that-but in my opinion you are exceedingly rare.
Kay
Kay1952
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Goey
MasterHerbalist replied to Kay:
Masterherbalist, with all due respect, how do you take issue with something that the evidence suggests is working?
Are you saying that the medical treatment has little or nothing to do with Tim's results?
While I accept that natural medicine and wholistic treatments has it's merits and can be a valid form of treatment, It seem to me that you have taken an angle againt modern medicine, similar to the angle that modern medicine took againt chiropractic and naturopathy. That is, deny it's validity in spite of the apparant positive results. This does not seem too wise to me.
Naturopathy, wholistic medicine, herbalist, etc have slammed the medical community, especially the drug companies for being money mongers, ie. - it's all about the dollar.
But when asked where the double blind studies are that can validate the claims made by alternative medicine and it's advocates, the naturalists have bemoaned the lack of money to fund such studies, claiming that the drug companies can afford it. But, the truth is today, that the herb, vitamin, naturopathy ornganic food, and other related industries are now enjoying a multi-billion dollar industry and can't or won't get their acts together to fund valid scientific studies to support their claims. What's up with that? It seem now that they, while enjoying profits unheard of in the past are being the greedy one's and don't want to spend the money. Or they are afraid that valid studies might hurt their industry and their profits.
Don't get me wrong, I am a believer in a wholistic approach, but it seems to me that there are too many wild claims, unsupported by anything but theory and personal testimony that need to be sorted though before one can make sensible and effective cholces.
Goey
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Kay1952
Good stuff Goey!
I was so whipped up about the other stuff, I didn't see that Masterherbalist made that statement.
I guess it is the old 'see first--then believe' thing.
I didn't even think of all the money that the companies that make 'dietary supplements' (for that is what they are merchandised as) are making in today's market. Great point--thanks!
Kay
Kay1952
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WyoMan
Sadly, it seems many claimed "natural" treatments are ones of last resort and regrettably many of them are totally unsubstantiated (except anectdotal evidence).
Some of those people are down right quacks who get rich off of these sorts of treatments!
It is rather disgusting to see some prey on individuals desperate for any type of hope.
Many of these people, however, are good intentioned but I beleive it would be negligent not to require some sort of verifiable and repeatable evidence before anyone tried any of these sorts of treatments.
Having said that there is a good deal of evidence supporting a holostic approach to treatment of cancer patients. The Cancer Treatment Centers apply this and very healthy diets seem to increase survival rates. There is also indications that personal (rather than cold clinical) approaches help.
Prayer and postive attitudes are all ways to encourage the body to fight the disease but I also believe God gave us a brain for good reason and medicine is an outgrowth of our combined brain power!
Al Hendrickson
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Kay1952
I couldn't take Tim to Cancer Treatment Centers because our health insurance would not pay for it. Apparently, CTC is still thought of as 'experimental'.
I had to battle family when we told them that Tim had cancer. Everyone had some friend, neighbor, aunt, uncle....who had either beaten cancer with some rhubarb mixture from some guy they worked with, (or whatever). The toughest thing to convince them of was that Tim will survive this! They were all asking me what we were going to do with his body, and how I was going to make it through life without him! I was apalled that everyone was so willing to consign him to the dirt without even considering that treatment would work!
Kay
Kay1952
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OCD #2
the side/after effects of chemo/chemi therapy?
the regimen and total sacrifice/discipline of "natural healing"?
Christ, just let me die and take me home!
I know, I didn't contribute much to the deep intellect/knowledge of this thread
*cough* *cough* .....just put out my 53rd cigarette for today......Norm = hopeless, yet full of hope
----------------------------------------------------------
Mom calls me Jake ....but you can call me Norm
time is on our side
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Lightside
Check out the work of Dr. Thorpe:
HTTP://www.peregrineinc.com/
Awaiting China SDA approval on up to 10 different cancers. Peregine expecting 3-brain,lung,colon cancer.
Awaiting FDA approval for Phase III clinical trials for brain cancer
Many believe this guy is responsible for the success of this company:
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=237
People of today believe this just as much as 1st century folks believed that dippin' in a pool of water would heal them or touching a hankie that the MOG touched.
Maybe God is alittle bigger than our little box vision of Him.
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Kay1952
What's your point?
Is it that the idea of chemo with all it's side effects is not life at all?
Tim faced the numbers square in the face.
Take me home?
If it was that easy--most would just give up and go 'home'.
I've always ascribed to the idea that where there's life there's hope!
where did you want to go with this?
Just curious--
Kay
Kay1952
ps--
Lightside-I looked at Peregrine, (Interesting that they chose the name of a raptor for their company!) Interesting!
K
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Goey
OCD Posted:
No, that's not believing OCD. - That's giving up.
Goey
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Zixar
No disrespect, but whenever the reasons for some problem come down to a conspiracy theory, you might as well file it away with the rest of them.
Herbal medicine is yet another case of 10% meat, 90% breadcrumbs in the meatball. For every penicillin, pseudoephedrine, or aspirin, there's ten dubious superweeds.
Of course, if the government weren't colluding with the UFOs to combat the Illuminati's manipulations of the AMA and the suppression of the 200-mpg carburetor, we'd know the Truth™. Why else do the drug companies keep paying for doctors to attend those seminars in Bermuda? Gotta keep the Bermuda Triangle filled with souls from time to time to appease the Evil-Powers-That-Be.
Are the medical companies the victims here? Hell, no! But are the chemists and doctors who are trying to develop these new drugs in the laboratory sitting around twiddling their mustaches during the coffee breaks, plotting how to crush the herbalists? Hardly. Can a chiropractor help your back pain? Yep. Can adjusting your spine cure the flu? No, regardless of the AMA's conspiracy against them, too.
One more thing. If the herbal way is really Nature's Plan, what are you supposed to do if the one plant that will cure your disease grows 3,000 miles away? What about all the Chinese herbalists who also prescribe endangered animal parts for impotence? Anyone really want to take Powdered Rhino Horn for erectile dysfunction?
These herbal cures do bear looking into, but I sure wouldn't want to bet my life on a bunch of anecdotes.
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masterherbalist
First to Kay:
Thank you for your tremendous story of believing and fighting for Tim's life! I must confess that I did remember your medical background and have been reviewing the lift list information.
But see, folks, Kay is EXACTLY what I am talking about. She is not just blindly accepting the statistics. She has done some homework- is there room to improve- always! But to see this kind of fighting for someone's health with this type of compassion is just what I have been trying to stir up. Agree with me or don't, just get MAD and REFUSE TO LOSE!!
Goey- the point that the Masterherbalist was making about "believing" and drug therapy was simple. Remember TWI? Remember what you were taught about believing? Ok, enough of that. Kay here got as much info as she could and kept digging and digging and working. This is true believing in action. Also drug therapy will produce results, but my point was at what cost? For example, radiation and chemo by and large poison the body. Sure it "kills" cancer, but it also hurts the body. Many of my students are people whose immune systems are now and require the careful attentiveness to rebuilding by nutrition and by cleansing and rebuilding the liver. I have seen patients "cured" of cancer only to succumb to liver failure (from the treatment).
Zixar- I have to say that our Creator was truely smart. He placed those things that we need for our health in our own backyards. No need to go to China for ginseng, we have our own in the good ole US. The Native peoples used what was on their land and were taught from the elders if you could not find this herb, you could use that one. As for standardization: the great thing about that is that the Creator has done that in the herbs in your area. Dr. Christopher taught us a great principle: eat under your own fig tree. The echinacea in my area is specifically for use in our climate and therefore for the inhabitants. Sure Utah echinacea is good, but it differs from ours in that we live in a tropical area and Utah is mountainous- the needs to live in each area are different.
What is really amazing is that Hippocrates was right: Let Thy Food Be Thy Medicine. Do you realize how many people we have taught principles to who have regained their health just by what they ate? No exotic herbs here. Just good ole "herbs" like spinach, lettuce, peppers, onions, garlic, carrots, etc, etc.
Please don't take my handle as someone who is promoting a one-sided; we-all-gotta-eat-herbs-or-else philosophy. To the contrary. What I have learned in 20 years, I do not expect anyone to swallow in 5 minutes on the computer. But, I have to express, I am absolutely blown away and impressed with the dynamic and enthusiam and love that Kay 1952 has put in this thread. It should be its own thread titled: Don't take No for an answer. Our heavenly Father's purposes and ways are truely magnificent. I certainly hope that the readers get out of your posts the inspiration that I have gotten.
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Kay1952
Masterherbalst--I hadn't thought of what I was doing for Tim, (and selfishly sometimes for ME) as compassion!
I am just one who has never taken the status quo for an answer. I have always believed that there is more than one right answer to any one question. I have found (rarely) that there is only one answer.
I understand that food is healing. I am a large woman, and a wonderful cook. I truly understand the phrase 'comfort food'! It lives at our house!
We might not have money to share, but we always have food! The rule of thumb here is if you leave my house hungry, it's your own fault!
I have had 3 husbands, and Tim is the best! I want him here with me and our children and grandchildren! We have a new grandchild due in March! If we had believed what the stats said, Tim would be gone before that happened. Not available! Period.
Keep your work foremost! I will say that I wish we had someone of your caliber here in Janesville. Most people with CFIDS see homeopaths, because traditional medicine has no answers regarding the treatment of it. I am fortunate, (or maybe stiff necked and unyielding enough!) to know that I do know all that is available for treatment of CFIDS, and I have a treatment that works for ME!
( I also don't think that I have ever been called inspriational before!)
Love,
Kay
Kay1952
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nonameplease
If you can buy laetrile (aka amygdalin, vitamin B17, B17)-which is NOT a vitamin, btw- in the USA, please notify the FTC and/or the FDA. It is a cyanide compound derived from apricot pits. The FDA administration has banned its use in the USA due to side effects from the build-up of cyanide in some people.
If a compound has a physiological effect, it will also have side effects. This is true of "natural" or pharmaceutical compounds, as there is no "magic bullet" which can produce an effect on only one body organ or system. A side effect is only an effect not originally intended.
Those oxygen therapies have not been shown to increase oxygen levels in the cells. Not that increasing oxygen levels in the cells has been shown to treat cancer, either.
Some herbs may have great potential; many have been used to produce some very effective medications. Some of the worst problems right now include:
- herbs and supplements on the market lack scientific proof of safety and efficacy.
- herbs and supplements are not regulated by the FDA; potency varies considerably and many have been found to contain contaminants such as mercury and lead.
Diet and exercise are known to be important factors in good health. Medical practitioners do not deny this. I do not understand why this fallacy keeps cropping up, but if you doubt it, ask any doctor. I have yet to find one that does not agree that diet and exercise contribute to good health, and I have asked many.
Until I know that herbal preparation is safe, effective, contains the proper dosage,and is free from contaminants, I think I'll pass.
Who put the stop payment on my reality check?
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firebee
Kay
I admire your courage and conviction. Tim, you and your family remain in my thoughts and prayers
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Kay1952
I guess I haven't thought of it as courage and conviction. I learned how to listen to God when I was walking alone. So? If I didn't listen I found myself a$$ deep in alligators with no direction as to how to get out of that pond! After the millionteenth time I was being chewed by those alligators it occured to me that I knew the answer all along.
LISTEN TO GOD!
Thanks tho!
Love, Kay
Kay1952
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firebee
You've a heart of gold
no need to embelish on that fact
Courage and conviction is HOW I picture you when my prayers are spoken for you and Tim
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OCD #2
izzat the WOG ............"Word of Goey" ?
hmmmm
"gave up the ghost"
"into your hands I commend my spirit"
I'll be in good company
i do believe in the hope, and when faced with aforementioned difficulties, I apply those beliefs for strength and courage
SISTER: Donna, diagnosed with brain tumor at 30, nine years later still alive, "broke records", thanks to the marvels of science, "creating a new standard for the statistics"
Donna at 39, bald, thin and "ugly"
Her now 15 year old daughter, Natasha
anyhow, she want's to be a cancer research physician now
i lost my train of thought
----------------------------------------------------------
Mom calls me Jake ....but you can call me Norm
time is on our side
[This message was edited by OCD #2 on December 03, 2002 at 6:24.]
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OCD #2
to each his own
somehow there IS a bigger plan than we can quite figure out
i won't even go into the "crazy" approaches to lifes ill's that i have witnessed in my life
my favorite phrase emblazened on the back of my guitar neck
"Whatever it .... takes!!!"......the "human" "spirit" seems to get there .....and then it don't
i would have Donna here for selfish reasons
i smoke an incredible amount of cigarettes, i'm going to die, i'm sure of it ahhh, the wages of sin ....and NO i don't want sympathy, attention or least of all e-mails
rock on!
----------------------------------------------------------
Mom calls me Jake ....but you can call me Norm
time is on our side
[This message was edited by OCD #2 on December 03, 2002 at 6:32.]
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OCD #2
oh yeah, thank God for cigarettes!
i can tell when i'm getting a cold cuz they start tasting sweet....yuk!
----------------------------------------------------------
Mom calls me Jake ....but you can call me Norm
time is on our side
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