fwiw...you might like Teresa of Avila's visions of mansions teachmevp...and anyone.
It seems the Bible and Judeo-Christian history is rich with comparing the soul to houses, mansions, temples and other forms of architecture. As if the much of the groundwork for much of what we call psychology was laid in monasteries and convents.
Avoidance and demonization of these contemplative dimensions of Judeo-Christianity is perhaps one of the most severe flaws of VPW/PFAL/TWI and ilk. As if we traded our direct experience of our very own soul's development for a story about God that is mostly outside of our selves and somewhere else but here.
Some of the best news i've ever heard is that the soul responds a thousandfold to our inquiry and attention.
I don't know a great deal about this topic, sorry.
Some questions come to mind, reading, as a result:
"North"....north of what? and then how far north?
"Mansions" - abodes, dwelling places. In what state, meaning a physical or a "spiritual" one, that being let's say for the sake of discussion, another state than one that's solely physical....although I guess it could be some conbination of anything or everything.
Although it will give some conniptions VPW represented a basic piece of defining "spirit" as we call it and the bible uses it - as "life", that is all life is spirit, and I suppose the reverse would be true. It can be metaphorical too, although the way pneuma is used in literature, and the bible, it leads towards "life" or a quality of being that we'd associate with that word life.
Life is - what? I was about to write "intelligent" but that's a very broad word and some of us might not quality as being "alive" then. (joke) Self aware - nope not consistently - although I've got some plants that can look kind of mischievous at times - but awareness might not be true in all cases, specifically the ability or state of knowing that I am me and that I exist and that I'm not you or someone or something else.
Two qualities that I might then place in the basket of Life - growth (hmmm....tabbing for further research) and continuity as in life continues till it doesn't, or doesn't appear to.
Growth
Continuity
Maybe (for humans and others) Self awareness
Change - the capacity to recalibrate or attenuate our state - not sure if that's true of Life but possibly. Maybe.
"Life" in relation to these "mansion" - how are you seeing that?
"lived" in may not be the right word for Jehovah and tents - I'm thinking of Exodus chap. 40 or so - I don't know that it's suggesting God "lived" in the constructed tents they built. Or that we would therefore have a vested relatiionship in something like a "tent" unless it's figurative and Lord knows the bible is a playground for Figurative thinking.
I've always thought of "many mansions" as different dimensions. Science knows there are at least 11 possible dimensions.
I think we have no clue what's beyond our little universe (although to us it seems big).
I've just always thought "dimensions."
God is outside space and time. We are not. We think in linear terms and can't imagine thinking in eternal term without boundaries of space and time. We are here on earth, yet told we are already seated above the heavens in the place called "glory" with Christ. It seems, we are two different places at once (Eph. and Col.). Our minds can't comprehend that - or even apprehend it.
We also know quantum physics deals with one particle that can be two different places at once and millions of miles away from each other yet in the same place.
Well, the "spirit", pneuma, the life, breath, etc. etc.......I see the difficulty in visualising these things. When I say "spirit" what am I really talking about? What does that mean, what is the foundation for understanding what it means?
Life has existence, what I call "continuity". Once a life begins it doesn't start and stop or cease to exist and then exist again. An instance of life can be recognized by it's qualities. I see a rock - it's not "alive". I see a cat - it's alive. What's the difference? There are differences.
Life occurs in individual instances. God is - God. There's one, Jehovah. I'm me - that's one. You're you, another. A cat - there's an instance of life. A fish - life. A rose - life. A tree - alive. A piece of wood from the tree cut and held a year later - not alive. Interesting. And the biological processes that produce and keep life going, that are "life", are present in individual instances. We know there are differences in qualities but there are basic similarities for anything that's "alive" and from our conscious recognition of it, it occurs in individual instances. .
I know this sounds very basic but it's not something I assume as being the only way that life could occur or exist but from our view, it is. That we are the way we are and life is as we observe it isn't a "gimme". And the fact that we don't observe or have any knowledge of it occuring in any other way is hugely significant, far more than we realize I think. We wake up every morning the way we are and the essence of that life never changes - there's a reason for that I think.
For you and I consciousness is a quality of life - we know who we are, recognize ourselves from others and accumulate memories and anticipate the future from the present.
Memory is another critical quality of our consciousness. If God had no beginning I'd have to ponder what His consciousness is, the "mind of God".
We can analyze the quality of our "life" by certain deficiencies - we "forget", lose pieces of information that our brains mix up or confuse and we can't recall. and we do that not with only 80-90 years under our belts. Does God do that?
A "perfect" God would never forget, never have anything He couldn't recall, presumably immediately. How does one know everything, all the time, and have the ability to recall it at anytime?
My point is that when I look at "life" and compare say - a plant, a cat, and myself and then God - I see differences in quality. Serious differences.
I do believe that there's a difference in the pneuma, the "spirit" of God and the spirit of man, simply and for no other reason than that.
There are similarities like singular, non-repetitive instances, individual consciousness, and memory and anticipation.
Other qualities, like continuity are vastly different. I can't assume that the life of man, my life, will in and of itself ever be the same as God's from this perspective that I have of life as I know it.
This isn't an imposed "superiority" teaching or viewpoint, it's simply a recognition of what I read in the bible and what I can see of life as we all know it. If I accept the God Jehovah as real, I have to accept the differences. I think God's pretty clear about those too, in the O.T., whatever version we use.
Teach suggested the mansions could be tents. A tent is a temporary place - the tent of meeting in the wilderness in Exodus was something that could be taken down, rolled up and put away.
A mansion suggests permanence, always there. Like the new Jerusalem, in Revelation - a permanent city. Maybe the mansion(s) is in the new Jerusalem?
These things are interesting to think about.
However, they're a long way in the future and too much thinking about them can lead to "head knowledge" and not heart knowledge.
After so much TWI "this is our private theory" and analysis of individual words, I always try to ask myself the question: How does this help me live my life better RIGHT NOW?
We know we have the promise of something great to come in the future.
Just as we cannot explain to a fetus how great life is outside the confines of the womb (where, that being a fetus's sole existence and knowledge, no doubt it was perfectly happy), I think God cannot explain to us how wonderful our new life will be. He gives us images to try to help, but we can only guess at it, in this lifetime.
Tents, mansions - makes sense Twinky. Temporar versus permanent.
I agree Twinky, the Life of God isn't something we're going to grasp at this point. We struggle (good naturedly at times, with vigor and enthusiam) just to understand our own lives even as we live them. Whether we do or not, life goes on as we say. Once the train's left the station, it's moving.
The understanding of it is due to what I would see as clear differences. We observe things outside ourselves but we can't really know what it's like to be a tree because we're not the tree or a tree. The essence, the definition of our existence is different, yet we both "live".
It's obvious to me that we won't truly have a grip on the "life" or pneuma of God until we're completely living that "life". We can't really, in a subjective way.
Yet, and this goes to TMVP's point on the "spirit" teaching being bogus - we go from a point in our lives where we don't have any real grasp of God or the things of His realm, to a point where we do being "born again". This singular instance of one-to-one generation (or regeneration if that's the drill someone chooses) is a game changer.
"New Life" - born again, children, "sons", in a familial relationship then with God. New nature, incorruptible, etc. etc. These terms provide contrasts, differences we can see.
This appears to be more than hmmm....say a new list of stuff we get or have. Promises, all of that. There is a difference we read about but the primary difference is the core essence, the "nature" of that new life, being born again.
All of the terminology of the N.T. leads me to believe that and understand it to a teensy bit as the "holy spirit", the hagion pneuma, as being different than the pneuma of man. Just as the tree is alive but different in quality of life, so this.
I don't subscribe to the idea that the N.T. was hijacked by people over history to completely impose a new view, a "superiority" teaching that creates a spiritual realm where there is none. Simple but intense viewing of life as it is leads me to understand that the overall perspective the Old and New Testaments give on God, man, the present and future are tenable. We know the bible's been messed with over and over throughout history, however there are clear basic strains of thought and expression that carry through.
Speaking of which - got some life to carry on myself this fine weekend, gotta get to it! Be back.
fwiw...in english alone, some have identified up to 12 ways we use "spirit" and "spiritual." not all of them in a religious context.
overall...i find all such confused words become more useful as words as we get more of an idea of how someone is using them. same is true for other common multi-used words like God Love Sex Hate Death Evil Good Hell Heaven etc...
so often people argue for/against the merits of a word before clearly defining it.
all along, the thing being named exists prior to and in spite of the words we find to tell our story of it.
...
also...friends of mine who teach forms of "spirituality" in the east and west have noticed that they dont have a word quite like it in the East. Things like sleeping, dreaming, waking up, gardening, eating, pooping are "spiritual"...and to be "spiritual" is simply to be.
as if, to the more nondual worldviews, "spiritual" is an extra word added by more dualistic worldviews.
...
i like tents too...
like Moses...whose design showed the very center of our self in God is in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a wilderness.
similar to the multi-colored layers of garments of jacob...or the pure math of unfolding nests of petals...aka "flowers of the field."
some buddhists have described many "sheathes" of consciousness...where a large part of waking up to who we have always been can be seen as losing layers.
in developmental psychology...this might be described as those major shifts in life where "subject" becomes "object"...and where what was once "the position we are observing from" becomes "the thing being observed." Like when we sucked on our toes as babes, not knowing we are the toes. Then when we realize our body, our face...we lose one more unknown...who we are moves one tent deeper, one mansion closer to the center of our experience of God.
Happens again when we notice our feelings inside of our body. Once we do, we no longer experience life from the point of view of those feelings ("I am angry"), but those feelings are now in our experience as things ("I am feeling angry inside of my body"). Same with thoughts, dreams, and many other things we do not know we are yet...like egos.
This becomes more and more important and evident as we age. For the first time we have many many changes to observe and compare, the geography of many layers have been added to the discard pile as "who we think we are" continues to move.
some describe the process like this...the center of our self moves ever deeper into the center of this "tabernacle of many robes"...even as the outer bounds of our sense of self expands outward beyond our body, to include our family, our culture, our race, and eventually all of life and the world...perhaps even beyond.
as if the first shall be last...and in the end we find that our destination is a home we never left in the first place.
There may be a language hurdle to make here TMVP. I believe you said english isn't your first language. Whatever your native language is, you're doing better with english than I would with yours or any other for that matter english is all I know, a few words and phrases of Spanish, German and French. Enough to get me kicked out of any decent restaurant if I go too far trying. So I'm not much help in that area, but you're doing fine, friend.
This is pretty side tracked off the "mansions" topic, like I said I don't know much about that, those, whatever.
The life topic is pretty simple to my mind. I'm getting we aren't coming to the same conclusion which is fine. Hopefully what I'm positing has made some sense, but I'm not sure from your responses what you mean, which may go both ways, if so, don't sweat it. .
Many religions have imaged their deities as persons, with names, physical features and what are more or less "super powers", compared to humans. They live somewhere and fuss and fight amongst themselves and occasionally it spills over into human affairs, not always a good thing by their accounts.
Although "Jehovah" came and went at times, and visited and dwelt and spoke and heard, the God of the O.T. made it clear He's not one among many, He's it. No names, no dwelling place of human construction holds or frames Him. I might conjecture that the gods of ancient religions (and more current ones too) reflect the creations of Jehovah, angels and the like, and their affairs throughout time that have intersected with man. "gods" may be ways to tell the piecemeal stories of what's gone on throughout time in God's realm. I really don't know, just a thought.
Jehovah - the name alone constructs the framing of how He's understood by that name - God in covenant relationship with people, "His" people. God's people are apparently very important to HIm but not the only business He's involved in or with, seems fairly clear.
My point is what the bible says - God doesn't dwell in temples made by us. God's dwelling place is described as with - "in" - His people. Christianity describes the role of Jesus Christ, Yeshuah in that.
For many years I think I struggled with "visualizing" God - I spoke about him in very human physical terms, and yet I really had no understanding of what that was really like or might be, in reality. I knew something was going on though and it wasn't hmmm, "this", what I see and hear of the physical. I hesitate to go much further than that because, at the risk of sounding like a goof, I believe that "true reality" must reveal itself to each one of us and it will become clear as it does. Some will see it differently, that's normal.
We aren't all right but we can all try. If I come to find I'm completely wrong, nuts and crazy, that's okay too. Shoot us for trying, right?
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bowtwi
Wow, teach! This is a DISCUSSION board and that's what Pax did, was contribute to the discussion here. I don't get it. Is your intention to lecture and to only allow opinions that mirror yours? If
teachmevp
Thanks for your Progressive point of view, but I am not a progressive, just a PFAL grad going foreword with research. Just some word studies I did one day, but thank for your progressive point of vi
teachmevp
Hi socks, the bible is a playground for figurative thinking, it sure seems that way at times? Hebrews 8:2 "and Yeshua has become the minister of the Sanctuary, and of the true Tent, which Yahweh pi
Sunesis
Sounds interesting Teachme. Pssst - check out your reputation :)
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teachmevp
Thanks for helping me with that reputation thing, it is a drag to get labeled,
the way seemed to have a way of labeling people. If I fall on my face, than it
is my doing, but to be labeled, I got flash backs of being in the way again.
Thanks Sunesis, hope your doing well.
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teachmevp
I wonder if our white horses will be around our abiding places, I remember
reading about us getting to ride white horses, just a thought?
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Pax
Teachme,
Are we taking the second coming of Christ a bit literally?
Ever considered that, as apocalyptic literature,
those sections of the NT were never meant to be taken literally?
"Literally"
does not mean "really"
as in "really true."
Literally is not the only way to take scripture as seriously as a Way Corp member. lol
Look where it got them. (literalism, not seriousness)
Scriptures that are interpreted metaphorically
can be taken just as "really true."
and just as seriously.
Garrison Keillor's "Lake Wobegon" stories are SO true.
really true ...
but not literally true.
We need to interpret scripture so that people will say,
"Oh my goodness that is SO true!"
(Otherwise we're workmen that need to be ashamed.)
Scriptural stories (Jesus walking on water for example)
can be really true without being literally true
in fact, for me, Truer.
Metaphor does not mean untrue or lying!
Why did the gospel writer talk about Jesus walking on water?
Is it because Jesus broke 100 laws of physics?
which of course, God could do, so I'm not saying That
but how likely was it that God and Jesus really did this
We just weren't there to take a video!
Even a Waybot can interpret those metaphors...
chaos, waters, Gen. 1:1-2, leviathan etc.,
faith, believing, trust, obey...
and off you go as a workman
not denying one's doubts about historical veracity
but WORKING the Word.
It Works if you Work it, so Work it, the World is Worth it.
Jesus' return IS "really true"
just perhaps ... not literally true.
No buses crashing though storefronts?!?
No "Left Behind"?
"NO" makes much more sense to my mind.
Can you accept that possibility?
If so, you can learn why Jesus' return
is such a potentially dynamite metaphorical truth.
My heart can accept much easier
what my mind does not reject
just one person's humble opinion for your consideration
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teachmevp
Thanks for your Progressive point of view, but I am not a progressive, just
a PFAL grad going foreword with research. Just some word studies I did one
day, but thank for your progressive point of view, play nice, stay on topic?
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Pax
If someone says,
"I think mansion means an abode in the north where I might be one day."
and you say
"Maybe mansion is part of a literary device
and does not indicate any geographic location you might literally be one day."
is that being off topic?
My words were not just for you,
in this PUBLIC forum
they were for anyone
for whom biblicist literalism
has become tiresome
discredited
and less-than-profitable.
Since that is not you,
I wish you well,
and will leave your private thread to yourself
and others who want to concentrate on this word study
"Play nice" was hurtful.
Since when is disagreement, respectfully stated,
not playing nice?
I will not force my opinions on you again.
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bowtwi
Wow, teach! This is a DISCUSSION board and that's what Pax did, was contribute to the discussion here.
I don't get it. Is your intention to lecture and to only allow opinions that mirror yours? If so, please state that
at the beginning of your post and people can decide if they want to tow your line or go elsewhere and think
freely as we see fit.
We're no longer in the cult and no longer have to all think exactly the same thoughts, thank God!
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sirguessalot
fwiw...you might like Teresa of Avila's visions of mansions teachmevp...and anyone.
It seems the Bible and Judeo-Christian history is rich with comparing the soul to houses, mansions, temples and other forms of architecture. As if the much of the groundwork for much of what we call psychology was laid in monasteries and convents.
Avoidance and demonization of these contemplative dimensions of Judeo-Christianity is perhaps one of the most severe flaws of VPW/PFAL/TWI and ilk. As if we traded our direct experience of our very own soul's development for a story about God that is mostly outside of our selves and somewhere else but here.
Some of the best news i've ever heard is that the soul responds a thousandfold to our inquiry and attention.
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year2027
God first
thanks teachmevp
I believe there are many returns happening at the same moment
otherwise the dead in are coming back future tense, and the dead will come back present tense, in the dead will come back passed tense
otherwise are happening at the same moment of many times
but about walking on water
water changes into three forms solid, liquid, gas
can water not changed forms for the son of God
to a solid form so the son of God can walk on it
I saw water change form
have you
maybe it all three forms right now
maybe it changes form faster than the eye can see
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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teachmevp
Thanks everyone of all the input, I made the claim that the ones that
do get gathered up at the gathering together, will see Yeshua as he is.
John 5:26 states that Yeshua was to have the noun "life" in himself, the
same noun of "life" Yahweh has within himself; when Yahweh raised Yeshua
from among the dead, Yeshua got that noun "life" in himself. In Luke 24:37-40,
Yeshua got that noun "life" in a body of some kind of flesh and bone body, we
will be in the north kickin it, maybe those abiding place are tents, that would be
to cool, our Father lives in a tent, or used to live in a tent, but their is way more
to Yahweh's tent, then living quarters?
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socks
I don't know a great deal about this topic, sorry.
Some questions come to mind, reading, as a result:
"North"....north of what? and then how far north?
"Mansions" - abodes, dwelling places. In what state, meaning a physical or a "spiritual" one, that being let's say for the sake of discussion, another state than one that's solely physical....although I guess it could be some conbination of anything or everything.
Although it will give some conniptions VPW represented a basic piece of defining "spirit" as we call it and the bible uses it - as "life", that is all life is spirit, and I suppose the reverse would be true. It can be metaphorical too, although the way pneuma is used in literature, and the bible, it leads towards "life" or a quality of being that we'd associate with that word life.
Life is - what? I was about to write "intelligent" but that's a very broad word and some of us might not quality as being "alive" then. (joke) Self aware - nope not consistently - although I've got some plants that can look kind of mischievous at times - but awareness might not be true in all cases, specifically the ability or state of knowing that I am me and that I exist and that I'm not you or someone or something else.
Two qualities that I might then place in the basket of Life - growth (hmmm....tabbing for further research) and continuity as in life continues till it doesn't, or doesn't appear to.
Growth
Continuity
Maybe (for humans and others) Self awareness
Change - the capacity to recalibrate or attenuate our state - not sure if that's true of Life but possibly. Maybe.
"Life" in relation to these "mansion" - how are you seeing that?
"lived" in may not be the right word for Jehovah and tents - I'm thinking of Exodus chap. 40 or so - I don't know that it's suggesting God "lived" in the constructed tents they built. Or that we would therefore have a vested relatiionship in something like a "tent" unless it's figurative and Lord knows the bible is a playground for Figurative thinking.
Should I invest in Coleman stock? (joke)
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Sunesis
I've always thought of "many mansions" as different dimensions. Science knows there are at least 11 possible dimensions.
I think we have no clue what's beyond our little universe (although to us it seems big).
I've just always thought "dimensions."
God is outside space and time. We are not. We think in linear terms and can't imagine thinking in eternal term without boundaries of space and time. We are here on earth, yet told we are already seated above the heavens in the place called "glory" with Christ. It seems, we are two different places at once (Eph. and Col.). Our minds can't comprehend that - or even apprehend it.
We also know quantum physics deals with one particle that can be two different places at once and millions of miles away from each other yet in the same place.
Think of a mansion how you want.
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teachmevp
Hi socks, the bible is a playground for figurative thinking, it sure seems
that way at times? Hebrews 8:2 "and Yeshua has become the minister of
the Sanctuary, and of the true Tent, which Yahweh pitched, not man"; the
tent Moses built, was copied after the tent Yahweh pitched. The tent Yahweh
pitched is a physical tent, just like the tent Moses built was physical. The physical
things Moses had built for the tent, Yahweh told him to build, are the same
things in Yahweh's tent.
It is funny how when one hears something enough, like spirit, one just starts
accepting it as fact. The fact is that their is way to much spirit, it seems everything
is spiritual, spiritual walk, spiritual life, spiritual power, spiritual body, spiritual buildings.
It seems VeePee had a hay day with his spiritual exploring; sit next to me on my bus young
lady, lets explore the spiritual side of things. Colman stock would be a good deal, but one can
make more money with spirit, twist a teaching from the bible with spirit, sell a book? A.T. Robertson
wrote a book, Grammer of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research, this guy gets
into some words, were the meanings of those words were deliberately changed; these deliberately
changed words are nothing but a pain, from the gnosticism twists, up to Constantine twists, up to Luther twists,
up to VeePees many ways to explore spiritual matters on his bus.
Thanks for your insight socks, it seems that all that spirit twisting of the bible has gotten in my way
to share that life with you, sometimes it seems we got to wait until the gathering
together of the body, of which Yeshua is the head, to see which spirit twist gets gathered up? I will stay
with that life Yeshua got, I remember reading Revelation, and that John saw two groups of people, the first group was
small, but the second group was way more bigger then the first; maybe it is going to take the day of Yahweh
to convince people, the life that Yahweh has within himself is a noun. Or the life that Yahweh has is spiritual life,
a spiritual noun and a spiritual verb?
The north is talked about in Isa. 14:13,14; funny thing though, I thought I would look this north stuff up in the Tanakh
translation, none of that north business is in the Tanakh translation? Maybe what John saw, thrones and all that stuff in
Revelations, was a notion that's anachronistically read back into the old testament to explain the "On the summit of Zaphon"
All the bibles in the world have that north, but how that north got in their, is not what is being talked about in 14:13,14-Isaiah is
mocking the Assyrian king, the whole world is relieved at the death of the Assyrian king, whose brutality was renowned; but
Isaiah is mocking the the king's vain aspirations to god-like status? Thats what is so cool about researching, research it again,
trippe stuff.
Funny thing about this Tanakh translation, Jesus being the servent teaching in Isaiah, is not in their either; the servent in Isaiah,
is Yahweh's servent coming out of Babylon, the Israelites? Maybe a "life after death" has a reason for this room like thing in Revelations,
to be overly forced on the old testament? I made the claim that a superiority teaching was added to Hebrews, maybe some of that stuff
was add to justify this superiority teaching?
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socks
Well, the "spirit", pneuma, the life, breath, etc. etc.......I see the difficulty in visualising these things. When I say "spirit" what am I really talking about? What does that mean, what is the foundation for understanding what it means?
Life has existence, what I call "continuity". Once a life begins it doesn't start and stop or cease to exist and then exist again. An instance of life can be recognized by it's qualities. I see a rock - it's not "alive". I see a cat - it's alive. What's the difference? There are differences.
Life occurs in individual instances. God is - God. There's one, Jehovah. I'm me - that's one. You're you, another. A cat - there's an instance of life. A fish - life. A rose - life. A tree - alive. A piece of wood from the tree cut and held a year later - not alive. Interesting. And the biological processes that produce and keep life going, that are "life", are present in individual instances. We know there are differences in qualities but there are basic similarities for anything that's "alive" and from our conscious recognition of it, it occurs in individual instances. .
I know this sounds very basic but it's not something I assume as being the only way that life could occur or exist but from our view, it is. That we are the way we are and life is as we observe it isn't a "gimme". And the fact that we don't observe or have any knowledge of it occuring in any other way is hugely significant, far more than we realize I think. We wake up every morning the way we are and the essence of that life never changes - there's a reason for that I think.
For you and I consciousness is a quality of life - we know who we are, recognize ourselves from others and accumulate memories and anticipate the future from the present.
Memory is another critical quality of our consciousness. If God had no beginning I'd have to ponder what His consciousness is, the "mind of God".
We can analyze the quality of our "life" by certain deficiencies - we "forget", lose pieces of information that our brains mix up or confuse and we can't recall. and we do that not with only 80-90 years under our belts. Does God do that?
A "perfect" God would never forget, never have anything He couldn't recall, presumably immediately. How does one know everything, all the time, and have the ability to recall it at anytime?
My point is that when I look at "life" and compare say - a plant, a cat, and myself and then God - I see differences in quality. Serious differences.
I do believe that there's a difference in the pneuma, the "spirit" of God and the spirit of man, simply and for no other reason than that.
There are similarities like singular, non-repetitive instances, individual consciousness, and memory and anticipation.
Other qualities, like continuity are vastly different. I can't assume that the life of man, my life, will in and of itself ever be the same as God's from this perspective that I have of life as I know it.
This isn't an imposed "superiority" teaching or viewpoint, it's simply a recognition of what I read in the bible and what I can see of life as we all know it. If I accept the God Jehovah as real, I have to accept the differences. I think God's pretty clear about those too, in the O.T., whatever version we use.
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Twinky
Just to add a very small thought to this thread:
Teach suggested the mansions could be tents. A tent is a temporary place - the tent of meeting in the wilderness in Exodus was something that could be taken down, rolled up and put away.
A mansion suggests permanence, always there. Like the new Jerusalem, in Revelation - a permanent city. Maybe the mansion(s) is in the new Jerusalem?
These things are interesting to think about.
However, they're a long way in the future and too much thinking about them can lead to "head knowledge" and not heart knowledge.
After so much TWI "this is our private theory" and analysis of individual words, I always try to ask myself the question: How does this help me live my life better RIGHT NOW?
We know we have the promise of something great to come in the future.
Just as we cannot explain to a fetus how great life is outside the confines of the womb (where, that being a fetus's sole existence and knowledge, no doubt it was perfectly happy), I think God cannot explain to us how wonderful our new life will be. He gives us images to try to help, but we can only guess at it, in this lifetime.
That said - carry on. Interesting thread.
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socks
Tents, mansions - makes sense Twinky. Temporar versus permanent.
I agree Twinky, the Life of God isn't something we're going to grasp at this point. We struggle (good naturedly at times, with vigor and enthusiam) just to understand our own lives even as we live them. Whether we do or not, life goes on as we say. Once the train's left the station, it's moving.
The understanding of it is due to what I would see as clear differences. We observe things outside ourselves but we can't really know what it's like to be a tree because we're not the tree or a tree. The essence, the definition of our existence is different, yet we both "live".
It's obvious to me that we won't truly have a grip on the "life" or pneuma of God until we're completely living that "life". We can't really, in a subjective way.
Yet, and this goes to TMVP's point on the "spirit" teaching being bogus - we go from a point in our lives where we don't have any real grasp of God or the things of His realm, to a point where we do being "born again". This singular instance of one-to-one generation (or regeneration if that's the drill someone chooses) is a game changer.
"New Life" - born again, children, "sons", in a familial relationship then with God. New nature, incorruptible, etc. etc. These terms provide contrasts, differences we can see.
This appears to be more than hmmm....say a new list of stuff we get or have. Promises, all of that. There is a difference we read about but the primary difference is the core essence, the "nature" of that new life, being born again.
All of the terminology of the N.T. leads me to believe that and understand it to a teensy bit as the "holy spirit", the hagion pneuma, as being different than the pneuma of man. Just as the tree is alive but different in quality of life, so this.
I don't subscribe to the idea that the N.T. was hijacked by people over history to completely impose a new view, a "superiority" teaching that creates a spiritual realm where there is none. Simple but intense viewing of life as it is leads me to understand that the overall perspective the Old and New Testaments give on God, man, the present and future are tenable. We know the bible's been messed with over and over throughout history, however there are clear basic strains of thought and expression that carry through.
Speaking of which - got some life to carry on myself this fine weekend, gotta get to it! Be back.
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sirguessalot
mmm...go socks
fwiw...in english alone, some have identified up to 12 ways we use "spirit" and "spiritual." not all of them in a religious context.
overall...i find all such confused words become more useful as words as we get more of an idea of how someone is using them. same is true for other common multi-used words like God Love Sex Hate Death Evil Good Hell Heaven etc...
so often people argue for/against the merits of a word before clearly defining it.
all along, the thing being named exists prior to and in spite of the words we find to tell our story of it.
...
also...friends of mine who teach forms of "spirituality" in the east and west have noticed that they dont have a word quite like it in the East. Things like sleeping, dreaming, waking up, gardening, eating, pooping are "spiritual"...and to be "spiritual" is simply to be.
as if, to the more nondual worldviews, "spiritual" is an extra word added by more dualistic worldviews.
...
i like tents too...
like Moses...whose design showed the very center of our self in God is in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a wilderness.
similar to the multi-colored layers of garments of jacob...or the pure math of unfolding nests of petals...aka "flowers of the field."
some buddhists have described many "sheathes" of consciousness...where a large part of waking up to who we have always been can be seen as losing layers.
in developmental psychology...this might be described as those major shifts in life where "subject" becomes "object"...and where what was once "the position we are observing from" becomes "the thing being observed." Like when we sucked on our toes as babes, not knowing we are the toes. Then when we realize our body, our face...we lose one more unknown...who we are moves one tent deeper, one mansion closer to the center of our experience of God.
Happens again when we notice our feelings inside of our body. Once we do, we no longer experience life from the point of view of those feelings ("I am angry"), but those feelings are now in our experience as things ("I am feeling angry inside of my body"). Same with thoughts, dreams, and many other things we do not know we are yet...like egos.
This becomes more and more important and evident as we age. For the first time we have many many changes to observe and compare, the geography of many layers have been added to the discard pile as "who we think we are" continues to move.
some describe the process like this...the center of our self moves ever deeper into the center of this "tabernacle of many robes"...even as the outer bounds of our sense of self expands outward beyond our body, to include our family, our culture, our race, and eventually all of life and the world...perhaps even beyond.
as if the first shall be last...and in the end we find that our destination is a home we never left in the first place.
sounds like good news to me.
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teachmevp
Thanks everybody so much for your insight;
The noun of spirit life, or, the noun of that life of which Yeshua said he was going to get, and
now has within himself. The noun of the life that Yeshua got, their is nothing else involved,
like the noun of spirit life? With spirit life, their is a spirit body to be had, and a seed of spirit
when you get born again, which helps one to think spiritual, because our spiritual brother is in
heaven; a little help here, I think that is what I see? The life that Yeshua said he was going to get,
and did indeed get; Hey everybody, Yeshua got that life Yahweh has within himself, cool dude?
I guess, the foundation for understanding is that it was important to Yeshua, that man strived
for something that was important to him; because Yeshua came back, and showed himself to all
those people behind closed doors? Even Yeshua said to them behind those closed doors, Has a
spirit flesh and bone, as you see me have? That noun of that life Yeshua got, was important to him, Yeshua is the Author
of life everlasting, we must go through the gate, no other way, but through that gate, soon we too
will have the abundance of that life? VeePee taught that verb teaching of that life, the best of both
worlds was his goal; but knowing all we have to do is walk through the gate, it seems Yeshua can
be the head of the body of which Yahweh called out, of which we are of, so we try to think Yeshua's
thoughts, we can let our own conscious be our guild; their is a lot freedom in letting our own conscious
be our guild?
Their is going to be a new heaven and a new earth, it is cool we get to help out somehow, and we will
need a place to kick it, until we see the new Jerusalem coming down from somewhere? My thought with
kickin it in a tent, if there is going to be a new heaven, why have permanent kickin pads, seems we have
a lot of work to do, riding those white horses, kinda gets one thinking?
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year2027
God first
thanks Todd and socks
I like hats over the tents
can spirit be a hat?
but we awake fleshly while our bodies are wake but are our spirit awake yet?
is our body living and our soul living is the birth of our spirit day came yet were can wear that hat?
is mansions just another word for hat, spirit, tent, dwelling, life, or any word?
please tell me
because hat fits but what about self
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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teachmevp
Where I lay my head is my home, a hat would make a good pillow.
Sunglasses would be a little ruff for a pillow.
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socks
There may be a language hurdle to make here TMVP. I believe you said english isn't your first language. Whatever your native language is, you're doing better with english than I would with yours or any other for that matter english is all I know, a few words and phrases of Spanish, German and French. Enough to get me kicked out of any decent restaurant if I go too far trying.
So I'm not much help in that area, but you're doing fine, friend.
This is pretty side tracked off the "mansions" topic, like I said I don't know much about that, those, whatever.
The life topic is pretty simple to my mind. I'm getting we aren't coming to the same conclusion which is fine. Hopefully what I'm positing has made some sense, but I'm not sure from your responses what you mean, which may go both ways, if so, don't sweat it. .
Many religions have imaged their deities as persons, with names, physical features and what are more or less "super powers", compared to humans. They live somewhere and fuss and fight amongst themselves and occasionally it spills over into human affairs, not always a good thing by their accounts.
Although "Jehovah" came and went at times, and visited and dwelt and spoke and heard, the God of the O.T. made it clear He's not one among many, He's it. No names, no dwelling place of human construction holds or frames Him. I might conjecture that the gods of ancient religions (and more current ones too) reflect the creations of Jehovah, angels and the like, and their affairs throughout time that have intersected with man. "gods" may be ways to tell the piecemeal stories of what's gone on throughout time in God's realm. I really don't know, just a thought.
Jehovah - the name alone constructs the framing of how He's understood by that name - God in covenant relationship with people, "His" people. God's people are apparently very important to HIm but not the only business He's involved in or with, seems fairly clear.
My point is what the bible says - God doesn't dwell in temples made by us. God's dwelling place is described as with - "in" - His people. Christianity describes the role of Jesus Christ, Yeshuah in that.
For many years I think I struggled with "visualizing" God - I spoke about him in very human physical terms, and yet I really had no understanding of what that was really like or might be, in reality. I knew something was going on though and it wasn't hmmm, "this", what I see and hear of the physical. I hesitate to go much further than that because, at the risk of sounding like a goof, I believe that "true reality" must reveal itself to each one of us and it will become clear as it does. Some will see it differently, that's normal.
We aren't all right but we can all try. If I come to find I'm completely wrong, nuts and crazy, that's okay too. Shoot us for trying, right?
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teachmevp
Thanks socks for your insight, english is all I know, that life is a trip;
in the tread of DNA and RNA; we all learned that the storys of the giants
really don't need to be knit picked over, we learned that Satan trick the
machine. Michail T. O'buck back in 1986 one day as were drinking coffee,
he was reading some medical journal, and he look up at me and said their is this
DNA and RNA thing, then he started talking about the giants, cool thread.
It is cool to bounce reasonings back and forth, when I started that DNA and
RNA, that stuff is way over my head, I have no business talking about that
subject, but it was cool what we learned. Thanks socks and everybody for all
your insight, it is cool to bounce reasonings back and forth.
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sirguessalot
i think so, Roy.
hats are perfect.
and how hats can indicate a perspective, or a voice, or a role...or a nimbus, or a halo.
reminds me...how a dear friend of mine who is a nun told me she wears her habit in public so people know she is a nun.
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year2027
God first
thanks Todd
thank you my friend
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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