As Christ died so will the comforter which is seen.
Not understanding death and destroy hinders seeing what will surely come.
We found comfort in the scriptures. To a degree we all did.
Another will come for each of us, that he may abide with you for ever.
I do not put down or ignore the scriptures, they are the schoolmaster.
The Comforter a comfort to me? Well..... yes.
That humble and meek Spirit that can gently chasten me, enlighten me, guide my prayers......and so much more......yes, the Holy Spirit is an indescribable comfort. His presence passes explanation. But, I believe that the Holy Spirit is God and that God is eternal. He will not die. Nor do I believe Jesus Christ is dead, but rather that He lives.
Because He lives, I also live.
I am not sure how you understand death or why these topics always seem to end up there, but my understanding of death is that it is an enemy. I don't think that our original design included death, but rather sin brought death. Death is what Jesus Christ destroyed and redeemed us from. I think that life is eternal and it is found in Jesus Christ. I live that eternal life now...in Him. It began the moment I was truly born again of the Spirit.
I am also unsure what you mean by the scriptures being the school master. I think the scriptures.....can bring that life to us....because from A-Z they tell us of the person who brings life as it was always meant to be. They tell us about ourselves, about sin, about God, and about what real love is.....they themselves are alive because they give the words of life. This is what I believe and it may seem difficult for some ex-way to accept....and I really get that...it may seem too reminiscent of what VP taught. After all, TWI was a counterfeit of a genuine faith.
He, meaning God, abides with me now cman....makes His home with me now and forever....my waiting is over.
Christ has been around a long time. Before the birth of Jesus.
So I don't know and really can't say for sure that Jesus was the first Comforter.
Yeah, well, wow, I can see where such considerations could cause an endless loop - probably put my money on it that it DOES cause an endless loop, something that we will never plummet to the end, nor profit from in any further way after the first few loops.
It’s a wonder that we communicate at all. But we do!!! Now there’s a whole linguistics study of depth that I’m not going into, but, hey, check this out:
I know of a 5000 year old Native American story. According to this Native American, it is 5000 years old. Now I now, 5000 years old – how could they know that? Blah, blah (short for blah, blah, blah). But NDN memory goes way back. Their memory goes back to before Alcatraz was an island. Wow! The Iroquois memory goes back to date their constitution (attempt to date according to our system for our benefit), a model upon which our constitution – and perspective of indepence - built in great measure – to 1000 or 1400 AD. Big difference, but either way, wow!
This story that goes back 5000 years is about the Great Spirit sending his son who gets killed by the Evil One, but raised up by the Great Spirit three days later to forever care for the Great Spirit’s people, the NDN’s.
Give or take a few thousand years that still predates the births of Jesus, the Vikings who first visited the New World, or Columbus for that matter.
Parallels of the NDN prophecy to biblical prophecy are impossible to not see.
But was the Great Spirit’s son in the story, Christ or the Comforter?
I tend to think that any Christ that existed before Jesus Christ existed, existed, like, ourselves, in the mind of God and His believers.
The Comforter was something new, something promised to come that came. It is come. God and Christ are come in the one spirit, the one gift, the one new man, the Comforter. Wow! A lot to take in. Not God, but God comes with it. Not Christ, but Christ comes with it. A Spirit that started as fire from God, & split into tongues of fire that entered into the 12. The fire is one fire with tongues never separating from their source.
So are we with the Comforter. You don’t have YOUR spirit (as in yours & no one else’s). I don’t have mine & mine alone. We are one, our membership in particular realized therein.
To briefly agree - the comforter, or counselor as that's translated at times, is referred to as a specific thing, an event that Jesus said would occur later in a specific time frame.
We can't really take that and make it a euphemism or a general kind of reference to whatever or anything we want, although it could be taken many different ways and applied to many different kinds of things. Iif the words in the bible are to be taken as a meaningful set of statements with a context and definition.
Likewise with "death" being an enemy and "loving your enemies". That's just not a sound connection there cman, sorry.
People talk about "learning to live" with their enemies too......you can't do that with death, literally.
Death is simply not the optimal progression for life. Well, maybe it could be I guess, it could be simply that life has an expiration date, a known start and end time and that's that. The whole deal with the bible speaks to another reality though, or one that's different at any rate.
Well, I take that back. These pants make my butt look big, mostly because well, it's not as big as it was but it's certainly not as small as it will be. There's the scarey part - "will be". How small will it get? And once small will it expand back to it's previous and larger state? This may be the most scarey thing of all in life, the constant never ending continuous back and forth of this cross cut saw like pattern of the expansion and reduction of my butt. I can't even see the dammed think without craning my neck so who cares??? - perhaps that explains the invention of the mirror, the better to view the current condition of the posterior portion of my pants and what's in them back there.
Yeah, there is always that, yeah. Big scarey that or at least potentially.
for one, new pain and disability is almost a sure catalyst for losing another worldview. and sometimes the relief we find is not what we thought we needed. we typically can't go back to who we thought we were and how we thought the world worked.
dying is clearly the hotter catalyst for change, though. and the greater need for a comforter. and not just for the one who is dying, but for everyone in the blast radius.
This excerpt is from DA Carson's For the Love of God........the book goes along with a reading plan and I think it is meant as a companion for those who have been recently introduced to the bible. It is a great book for reference and a wonderful reading plan.
I relate far better to this perspective myself...it speaks to my own relationship and experience with the Holy Spirit.
Here are his thoughts on the passages in question.
"THE FAREWELL DISCOURSE, beginning in John 14, includes some extraordinarily
rich material on the Holy Spirit. Some highlights:
(1) In Greek, every noun is grammatically designated masculine, feminine, or
neuter. The word for "spirit" is neuter. When a pronoun referring to "spirit" is
used, it too should be neuter. In this chapter, however, the pronoun is sometimes
masculine, breaking grammatical form, a way of gently affirming that the Holy
Spirit is personal.
(2) Among his titles is "Counselor" (14:16), or, in some English versions,
"Comforter" or "Helper." When Comforter was coined, it drew from Latin words
that meant "to strengthen" or "to strengthen along with." Today a comforter is
either a thick quilt or someone who helps the bereaved, and is therefore too
restrictive to convey what is meant here. The Greek word is capable of a variety
of nuances, so some do not translate it but merely transliterate it (i.e., put it into
English spelling) as Paraclete. He is certainly someone who is called alongside to
help and to strengthen. Sometimes the help is legal: he can for instance serve as
prosecuting attorney (16:7-11), and he may be our legal "Counselor." (The word
should not conjure up pictures of camp counselors or psychological counselors.)
(3) He is, Jesus says, "another Counselor" (14:16, italics added). In older
Greek, this word for "another" usually had overtones of "another of the same
kind." By the time of the New Testament, that meaning is fairly rare; it cannot
be assumed, but must be demonstrated from the context. In this case, Jesus is
clearly promising to send someone who will stand in his place. Intriguingly, apart
from its use in the Farewell Discourse, the word rendered "Counselor" is found
in the New Testament only in one other place, viz. 1 John 2:1 (NIV: "one who
speaks to the Father in our defense"). So Jesus is the first Paraclete. At his
impending departure, he promises to send the Holy Spirit, another Paraclete, to
and for his followers.
(4) He is also called "the Spirit of truth" (14:17). This not only means he tells
the truth as opposed to lies, but that he is the true Spirit, the one who mediates
the very presence of the Father and the Son to the believers (14:23).
(5) The Spirit, Jesus promises, "will teach you all things and will remind you
of everything I have said to you" (14:26). Since the "you" are being reminded of
what Jesus said, in the first instance they must be the first disciples. The Spirit
will enable them to recall Jesus' teaching, and flesh out its significance in the
wake of the cross and resurrection. How secure would the links have been without
i certainly see the description of "death" as transitional
1 Corinthians 15
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
i don't see death as a friend, but an enemy to be loved
it's the only way to get past the fear of it....now
I might also put it in musical terms, artistic ideals - a violin can be built, seasoned through playing and time and then
by deliberate effort or simply time, be destroyed.
The music written and played on it however can endure.
i do like what you wrote there....
and yet still, what it is, to be 'destroyed', eludes many great minds
I see what you're saying cman. This is a great topic and I appreciate your insight and thoughts, as always.
I hiccup at the term transition because many views are that going from death unto life is a natural progression and I don' t see it as such. It's described in those kinds of terms in many places and sources, including the Bible and that's what happens but the progression is also described as a "birth", a new birth and in that I think we see the correct view of life and death long term.
If man didn't die, he wouldn't need to be born over, or again. The Bible seems to say that even in this life we live we are 'dead', corruptible, in a 'sinful' nature, and somehow in the state of being kittywampus to where we need to be.
The "new birth" occurs while we're yet "alive"....now. That pending death sentence our bodies have is off plan, to put it mildly but it is what happens.
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geisha779
The Comforter a comfort to me? Well..... yes.
That humble and meek Spirit that can gently chasten me, enlighten me, guide my prayers......and so much more......yes, the Holy Spirit is an indescribable comfort. His presence passes explanation. But, I believe that the Holy Spirit is God and that God is eternal. He will not die. Nor do I believe Jesus Christ is dead, but rather that He lives.
Because He lives, I also live.
I am not sure how you understand death or why these topics always seem to end up there, but my understanding of death is that it is an enemy. I don't think that our original design included death, but rather sin brought death. Death is what Jesus Christ destroyed and redeemed us from. I think that life is eternal and it is found in Jesus Christ. I live that eternal life now...in Him. It began the moment I was truly born again of the Spirit.
I am also unsure what you mean by the scriptures being the school master. I think the scriptures.....can bring that life to us....because from A-Z they tell us of the person who brings life as it was always meant to be. They tell us about ourselves, about sin, about God, and about what real love is.....they themselves are alive because they give the words of life. This is what I believe and it may seem difficult for some ex-way to accept....and I really get that...it may seem too reminiscent of what VP taught. After all, TWI was a counterfeit of a genuine faith.
He, meaning God, abides with me now cman....makes His home with me now and forever....my waiting is over.
I have enjoyed chatting...thanks!!
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cman
Death is a prominent topic in the bible.
Just look at how many times the subject comes up.
Death, die, dead and other words are all over the place.
Without death there is no need for God.
and the bible says to love your enemies
of which death is the greatest enemy, requiring the greatest love
the last enemy to be destroyed, we ain't done with it yet
defeating it will involve facing it as defeated when it comes
but you will not be alone
I have no "Universalist position" as you put it.
Claiming that I have to do something to get eternal life is a contradiction of, we do not command god's will.
Eternal life is happening, and all the will of the soul will be intact as the fire burns the chaff in every soul.
There are no special clubs of those that have eternal life and those that do not.
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geisha779
Never mind!
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
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Tom
Yeah, well, wow, I can see where such considerations could cause an endless loop - probably put my money on it that it DOES cause an endless loop, something that we will never plummet to the end, nor profit from in any further way after the first few loops.
It’s a wonder that we communicate at all. But we do!!! Now there’s a whole linguistics study of depth that I’m not going into, but, hey, check this out:
I know of a 5000 year old Native American story. According to this Native American, it is 5000 years old. Now I now, 5000 years old – how could they know that? Blah, blah (short for blah, blah, blah). But NDN memory goes way back. Their memory goes back to before Alcatraz was an island. Wow! The Iroquois memory goes back to date their constitution (attempt to date according to our system for our benefit), a model upon which our constitution – and perspective of indepence - built in great measure – to 1000 or 1400 AD. Big difference, but either way, wow!
This story that goes back 5000 years is about the Great Spirit sending his son who gets killed by the Evil One, but raised up by the Great Spirit three days later to forever care for the Great Spirit’s people, the NDN’s.
Give or take a few thousand years that still predates the births of Jesus, the Vikings who first visited the New World, or Columbus for that matter.
Parallels of the NDN prophecy to biblical prophecy are impossible to not see.
But was the Great Spirit’s son in the story, Christ or the Comforter?
I tend to think that any Christ that existed before Jesus Christ existed, existed, like, ourselves, in the mind of God and His believers.
The Comforter was something new, something promised to come that came. It is come. God and Christ are come in the one spirit, the one gift, the one new man, the Comforter. Wow! A lot to take in. Not God, but God comes with it. Not Christ, but Christ comes with it. A Spirit that started as fire from God, & split into tongues of fire that entered into the 12. The fire is one fire with tongues never separating from their source.
So are we with the Comforter. You don’t have YOUR spirit (as in yours & no one else’s). I don’t have mine & mine alone. We are one, our membership in particular realized therein.
Tom
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socks
To briefly agree - the comforter, or counselor as that's translated at times, is referred to as a specific thing, an event that Jesus said would occur later in a specific time frame.
We can't really take that and make it a euphemism or a general kind of reference to whatever or anything we want, although it could be taken many different ways and applied to many different kinds of things. Iif the words in the bible are to be taken as a meaningful set of statements with a context and definition.
Likewise with "death" being an enemy and "loving your enemies". That's just not a sound connection there cman, sorry.
People talk about "learning to live" with their enemies too......you can't do that with death, literally.
Death is simply not the optimal progression for life. Well, maybe it could be I guess, it could be simply that life has an expiration date, a known start and end time and that's that. The whole deal with the bible speaks to another reality though, or one that's different at any rate.
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Ham
what do you you do..
Scary question.
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socks
Aye aye!
I fear nothing.
Well, I take that back. These pants make my butt look big, mostly because well, it's not as big as it was but it's certainly not as small as it will be. There's the scarey part - "will be". How small will it get? And once small will it expand back to it's previous and larger state? This may be the most scarey thing of all in life, the constant never ending continuous back and forth of this cross cut saw like pattern of the expansion and reduction of my butt. I can't even see the dammed think without craning my neck so who cares??? - perhaps that explains the invention of the mirror, the better to view the current condition of the posterior portion of my pants and what's in them back there.
Yeah, there is always that, yeah. Big scarey that or at least potentially.
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cman
O I believe there is a BIG connection there, socks.
One set of verses comes to mind, among many.
Where it says to die to live in Romans.
There's lots of them in Romans, so take your pick,
chapters 7 & 8 for instance.
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sirguessalot
perhaps "the comforter" is a way of describing some sort of post-grief state. as if Jesus was preparing them to grieve well.
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cman
like a transformation
from one comfort to another
of the same spirit
but opening to another portion of it
although i do see what you are saying
i think
like get ready to see things differently
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sirguessalot
yeah. grief comes at every stage of life.
like when a worldview dies. we mourn the loss of who we thought we were.
but the only way to the other side of it is through it.
keep digging. the relief will come.
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cman
been thinking before your post and moreso after
interestingly, i had hernia surgery 3 months ago
i had 2 hernias in the area, they meshed it
which has been bothering me a lot, still
pain discomfort burning off and on, more on
but i have to change my attitude about it
it - being relief
still consulting the surgeon
but i need to depend more on seeing the problem gone,
then looking for the temporary relief, which they give sometimes
really tired of having to call them
focus of energy which takes some change of thought life
change of perception of my world, life, work, etc...
it's in me to be done, letting go of the old into new worlds
not sure if that relates
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sirguessalot
i think i can see a number of ways it relates.
for one, new pain and disability is almost a sure catalyst for losing another worldview. and sometimes the relief we find is not what we thought we needed. we typically can't go back to who we thought we were and how we thought the world worked.
dying is clearly the hotter catalyst for change, though. and the greater need for a comforter. and not just for the one who is dying, but for everyone in the blast radius.
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geisha779
This excerpt is from DA Carson's For the Love of God........the book goes along with a reading plan and I think it is meant as a companion for those who have been recently introduced to the bible. It is a great book for reference and a wonderful reading plan.
I relate far better to this perspective myself...it speaks to my own relationship and experience with the Holy Spirit.
Here are his thoughts on the passages in question.
"THE FAREWELL DISCOURSE, beginning in John 14, includes some extraordinarily
rich material on the Holy Spirit. Some highlights:
(1) In Greek, every noun is grammatically designated masculine, feminine, or
neuter. The word for "spirit" is neuter. When a pronoun referring to "spirit" is
used, it too should be neuter. In this chapter, however, the pronoun is sometimes
masculine, breaking grammatical form, a way of gently affirming that the Holy
Spirit is personal.
(2) Among his titles is "Counselor" (14:16), or, in some English versions,
"Comforter" or "Helper." When Comforter was coined, it drew from Latin words
that meant "to strengthen" or "to strengthen along with." Today a comforter is
either a thick quilt or someone who helps the bereaved, and is therefore too
restrictive to convey what is meant here. The Greek word is capable of a variety
of nuances, so some do not translate it but merely transliterate it (i.e., put it into
English spelling) as Paraclete. He is certainly someone who is called alongside to
help and to strengthen. Sometimes the help is legal: he can for instance serve as
prosecuting attorney (16:7-11), and he may be our legal "Counselor." (The word
should not conjure up pictures of camp counselors or psychological counselors.)
(3) He is, Jesus says, "another Counselor" (14:16, italics added). In older
Greek, this word for "another" usually had overtones of "another of the same
kind." By the time of the New Testament, that meaning is fairly rare; it cannot
be assumed, but must be demonstrated from the context. In this case, Jesus is
clearly promising to send someone who will stand in his place. Intriguingly, apart
from its use in the Farewell Discourse, the word rendered "Counselor" is found
in the New Testament only in one other place, viz. 1 John 2:1 (NIV: "one who
speaks to the Father in our defense"). So Jesus is the first Paraclete. At his
impending departure, he promises to send the Holy Spirit, another Paraclete, to
and for his followers.
(4) He is also called "the Spirit of truth" (14:17). This not only means he tells
the truth as opposed to lies, but that he is the true Spirit, the one who mediates
the very presence of the Father and the Son to the believers (14:23).
(5) The Spirit, Jesus promises, "will teach you all things and will remind you
of everything I have said to you" (14:26). Since the "you" are being reminded of
what Jesus said, in the first instance they must be the first disciples. The Spirit
will enable them to recall Jesus' teaching, and flesh out its significance in the
wake of the cross and resurrection. How secure would the links have been without
his work?"
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cman
consider this, geisha, along with your relationship and experience
along with this study that you would need to download to read, i think
it's in my dropbox
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/198326/The%20Feminine%20Gender%20of%20the%20Holy%20Spirit.pdf
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socks
cman, interesting discussion - I see it described more as a 'birth'. How can a man die? Happens everyday.
How can a man be born again? With God it's possible.
From fetus to full term a growing baby isn't able to prepare for it's next transition consciously, it has no
knowledge of it and isn't aware of it, probably wouldn't want it to happen if it knew what was going to happen.
Since it hasn't happened yet there are no memories accumulated, no context or sense of 'self' to compare anything to.
And as it happens the baby's progress into the immediate new life is a bumpy road for baby and bearer, to say the least.
I don't see the description of "death" as transitional, not in the Bible or elsewhere. There are lots of metaphorical
comparisons to transition, change, needing to embrace death and accept it and attempt to understand it, yes.
It's understandable to me that we don't know of ourselves "what comes next" as it's a "you can't get there from here" proposition.
It's also not like a birth, although people describe it in those kinds of terms sometimes.
Transition, change, letting go of one thing to grasp another - I get all that. But death is a zero
sum total by all appearances and historical indicators.
As a Christian I see the "new life" in Christ and God but I don't see death as a friend or ideal part of life.
It is what it is and the way it is though. Barring intervention our physical bodies die.
I might also put it in musical terms, artistic ideals - a violin can be built, seasoned through playing and time and then
by deliberate effort or simply time, be destroyed.
The music written and played on it however can endure.
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cman
socks, your post reminds me of 1 Corinthians 15
i certainly see the description of "death" as transitional
1 Corinthians 15
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
i don't see death as a friend, but an enemy to be loved
it's the only way to get past the fear of it....now
i do like what you wrote there....
and yet still, what it is, to be 'destroyed', eludes many great minds
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socks
I see what you're saying cman. This is a great topic and I appreciate your insight and thoughts, as always.
I hiccup at the term transition because many views are that going from death unto life is a natural progression and I don' t see it as such. It's described in those kinds of terms in many places and sources, including the Bible and that's what happens but the progression is also described as a "birth", a new birth and in that I think we see the correct view of life and death long term.
If man didn't die, he wouldn't need to be born over, or again. The Bible seems to say that even in this life we live we are 'dead', corruptible, in a 'sinful' nature, and somehow in the state of being kittywampus to where we need to be.
The "new birth" occurs while we're yet "alive"....now. That pending death sentence our bodies have is off plan, to put it mildly but it is what happens.
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cman
perhaps changing the terms used to describe these things would help
give me some time and i can come up with some different views and perspectives
i just got off work so i'm a bit tired
as it comes i'll give
and yeah, i don't buy the 'sinful nature' rap
not even a little
i think our nature deep down is godly
there is lots more to dieing and rebirth then graveyard dead and life after that
if we can see past that, 1 Corin 15 would say a lot more to us
a lot of things die in us and are reborn while we still live now
transition does not set well with me
where as transform says it better i think
there are some redeeming qualities in that which has died that come with us
cause without that state before, then the state after could not occur
rather simply put and basic, if you were not born you could not die
our thoughts are enlightened, transformed, to the same sets of words, values, or quality of life
in the throws of transforming, seeing what's next may be blurred
but glimpses and real hope with substance will keep you
gotta watch interpreting that which is not intended to be interpreted....yet
not jumping the gun, without getting the bigger picture
which keeps getting bigger
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cman
Can't really think of another way to put what has already been said in 1 Corin,
it's all about change and exploring those changes.
These things are and have been initiated by God from the beginning.
In his time these will happen, we can get our minds out of 'stuck' in the same old thinking though.
To let loose, undo our own grip on what we think, and be shown, and then to look at it without fear.
I'm quite sure you can think of many ways to express your own transformations.
Don't let limits of language stop you.
Just throw it out there, someone will see it.
When it comes from the heart, you know it's not you alone letting it go.
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cman
It's an individual journey that is spoken of.
Some think it happens to everyone at the same time,
the changes expressed in scriptures here and 1 Thess 4.
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