"So is it any different.... whether control over an individual is achieved by use of superior force... a weapon...or the scriptures?"
Different? Yes. But are they potentially equally damaging in different ways? Again, yes.
I have experienced both. I will say this though, it was much clearer to me when it was physical force and that made it much easier for me to take a stand against it and get out.
Oldiesman,
" "The limits of tyrants are prescribed by those whom they oppress." I like to look at my time in The Way in a more positive sense. I want to "eat the fish and spit out the bones." "
I think there is much validity to this. However, some suffered more than others, were hurt more, damaged more deeply. Some just naturally recover more quickly than others too. I agree, there is a point where we have to recognize our own role in our victimization (as Rascal pointed out the women who are doing it to themselves). But it is not for me or you or anyone else to decide for another at what point they are or should be ready to move out of "victim" and into "recovered victim" or even into "victory".
Additionally, even when we've healed or mostly healed, there will be "triggers" which will bring up the old hurts and angers. Over time, those too begin to fade, but again, it is not for one to decide for another.
And finally, by bringing our stories to the front and telling them, perhaps even reliving them to some degree or another, we can help others realize they are not alone, not the only ones, and that they too can heal.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
I agree with you. This forum is for talking things out, which, in itself, sometimes, can be very healing.
I could see in your posts that you felt very manipulated and you have every right to talk about it. That's what GS is for. I don't see you or rascal or myself portraying ourselves as victims, nor do I see any of us asking for sympathy. We're simply stating what happened and hoping to find some closure in our own lives with what happened and hopefully helping someone else in the process by comparing notes.
quote:But it is not for me or you or anyone else to decide for another at what point they are or should be ready to move out of "victim" and into "recovered victim" or even into "victory".
In other words, I should just be quiet and not express my viewpoint?
OF COURSE it's up to others decisions. ALL I AM DOING is expressing a point of view.
The open exchange of ideas is what Greasespot is all about. Sometimes things are said that cut into my heart like a knife, as well. But that's all part of participating in a public forum. No viewpoints are immune from scrutiny and examination. If that changes, I'm sure Pawtucket will let us know.
rascal: You know you have my utmost admiration and respect, and always will. I think, perhaps, you might be going a bit overboard on Oldiesman on this thread. You've certainly suffered at TWI's hands and there's no disputing that. I'm truly sorry it ever happened to you, and I pray God that it never happens again, not to any woman. (or man, for that matter)
Oldiesman had a different experience in TWI, as did I. At the time, I was greatly saddened when TWI-1 fell apart because of the good times I had with our little Twig of believers. I thought the whole thing was that dumb jock Martindale's fault and were it not for him, all would be happyTwigland again. Between the time I went to my last Twig and the time I stumbled across Waydale, I was quite happy all alone in my little PFAL-world, and did the best I could to please God, orange-book style. I just held on to the memories, but longed for the fellowship lost.
After discovering that Martindale was just a worm in a big rotten apple, I found it a lot easier to get over the "loss" of TWI. In that regard, I'm doing what Oldiesman/JAL said--don't let myself be a victim forever. It's an apples and oranges thing, though. One eventually forgets a skinned knee (me); it's a colossal task to forget an amputated leg (you).
[shrug] That's all I got out of what he was saying.
Oldiesman: While your viewpoint shouldn't be censored, it might be more prudent to express it a bit more circumspectly on threads such as these. Unless I have totally misread you and you ARE saying what rascal thinks you are, that is.
The Secret Signature of the Day has been cancelled by the HTML Police.
Fence...agreed...Talking about this stuff has so NEVER ever been a ploy for *sympathy* as some avow.
It was and continues to be all about finally recognising being manipulated (and that it is ok to be angry)... the weapons that were employed to assure compliance...no matter what form the abuse and robbery took........God was hidden behind....scriptures were the camoflage used to mask the evil perperated.
.....anytime one of us comes forward with these stories exposing the evil experienced ..there are usually guys who come along and tell us either that it never really happened...or it wasnt really that bad or or it really was our faults...we wanted it all along....OR even if it WAS devistating to you personally...that doesn`t matter because some of the rest of us got the *word*!!
Only thing I can figure out about why our stories are upsetting to some is that maybe they threaten ones perceptions of twi...........
But it is not for me or you or anyone else to decide for another at what point they are or should be ready to move out of "victim" and into "recovered victim" or even into "victory".
In other words, I should just be quiet and not express my viewpoint?
OF COURSE it's up to others decisions. ALL I AM DOING is expressing a point of view.
Oldies, you innacurately read between the lines. What I said is what I meant to say, no hidden message. Like you, I was expressing a point of view. I value your input as much as anyone else's, even when I disagree, because it provokes thought. Hell, I even agreed with some of what you said and expressed that.
Perhaps, as the written word lacks tone of voice and facial expression, you read my response has being much harsher than it was intended, as sometimes happens when others read your posts.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
(((Zix))) thankyou... I am sorry ... I certainly don`t intend to be hard on oldies...sorry if that is how it is percieved.
Maybe I AM misreading him....Maybe I am lumping him in a catagory with others ....I get real mad when I feel like what we went through is ok because ...
a) it didn`t happen...
b) if it did happen it was ok because you... probably deserved it...
c) on the remote chance it DID happen and that it was as bad as you say... it really IS all good because we recieved the word like it hasn`t been taught like the first century..
Guess that is what I hear ....is that NOT what is really been said when you tell me to quit being a victim.... oldies? am I mis reading you when you say *just eat the fish and spit out the bones*? That hey, the degradation you suffered........the soul consuming ... life sucking ....youth robbing situations would not be a problem...you would be just fine if you would just focus on the good of twi???
I am SAYING that in *MY* *opinion* being in twi AS a woman SUCKED !!!! Almost every bit of the 10 plus years of involvement ...somebody was manipulating me to do things that were unpleasant or take something from me...
When you oldies want to wax nostalgic and say...but yeah it was really ok...and you just need to look at the nice things...I grow very angry...
I`ll bet you as a man might very well HAVE had a wonderfull time...maybe you were a leader....at any rate you were closer to the top of the food chain closer to the light and nutrients.......what the rest of us (namely the women and the children) many times experienced was the excrement that was dropping down continuously from those above.
Thank you zix, I admire and respect you enormously, that you would care enough to try to help me see things more circumspectly...is apreciated...Thankyou for taking the time...
I apologise if I dissapoint you with my anger...i guess after finally finding a voice after all of these years...I have a few things that I want to say.
Oldies...if I have misread you, if I am being unfair, or ugly... my sincerest apologies...
If I haven`t and your position is as I percieve...then I believe you to be one cold fish.
OM, I don't take your posts as saying one way or another that things did or didn't happen. I take them more along the lines of "you people need to get over it, whatever it was".
I'm just wondering, not trying to censor or anything, but... why?
Why do you feel a need to comment to or about the folks who have shared their experiences?
Sure, you're entitled to your opinions, beliefs, etc. This is an open forum, no question.
But still I ask why? To use a quote that may make some cringe, I ask "what's the profit?"
Why do you always feel the need to comment to those who are telling their story? Again, the question isn't THAT you are within your rights and able to do it... the question is WHY do you feel the need to do it?
I don't really understand why. And I can't really think of a valid reason other than "because you can". Which isn't really a good reason.
Do you think you're in any way promoting any healing in this area?
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
Ok ok...the topic wasn`t supposed to be about abuse and whether or not we should just *get over it*....or figure out whether or not I a victim wallowing in it or allowed to still be mad...it is supposed to be about using the *WORD* to control us ...be we men women or children....leadership or not....THIS is what angers me....even MORE than the abuses .
Something that was supposed to be good and wholesome....God and the bible....was the tool utilized to control our lives and actions...
I think I could have fought back against a gun or physical force....but how much MORE difficult is it to actually fight back against what God supposedly wants??
We were taught to have great reverence and respect for that word...to put it above everything.....it was the hook...the snare
If you had ANY thoughts contrary to what was being demanded...it was *Satan* tricking you...
If you hesitated to comply with your leadership...you were rebellious and bound for destruction........
If you didn`t immediatly comply with the head of the household...you were posessed with a lesbian spirit to be reviled and viewed with disgust....If the spouse couldn`t keep you in line...he was *spiritually* weak....if there was sickness or problems of ANY kind in your life or your marriage it was due to the head of household blowing it somewhere....if you didn`t follow leaderships instructions...you were treated as a pariah by everyone you knew....
The fear of being outside the will of God ensured complete unquestioned compliance from us...to consider any other action was to be allowing Satan in.
The *WORD* was wielded like a ball bat.
I am not even claiming that the *word* taught was necessarily a bad thing....I am saying that AFTER teaching it and instilling reverence and respect...it was then used...USED to force us into unwholesome miserable situations.
[This message was edited by rascal on January 15, 2004 at 13:49.]
[This message was edited by rascal on January 15, 2004 at 14:09.]
I don't say a hell of a lot here because someitmes I may touch a nerve of someone that continues to be hurting very badly. To be hurt, as bad as some of the posters (both mentally and physically), I could never relate too or feel their pain.
Please know that I deeply want for your pain to go away so true peace and happiness can be a big part of your life.
Sometimes I forget how TWI made some of the most compassionate and loving people to be arrogant and demeaning to others. I have seen that this attitude is still around within some posters who have not yet recovered what was stripped of them also.
I'm certainly not here to take up for TWI but to read what could have possibly happened to me if each one of you had not opened your hearts to me.
Thank You GS and each one of you for preventing me from the pain and suffering that could have been a part of my life had I not have found you.
Tom Srange, thankyou for understanding...Abigail, thanks for letting me borrow your line....
You know....as ....ed as I am about being used....I gotta wonder...if ther IS a God ...how does HE feel about HIS name being an instrument used to force people to comply...
How did HE feel when the ones looking to him were forced into unwanted servitude>?
How did HE feel when we were killing our babies because we thought it was what he required?
How did HE feel when we faithfully gave our money for his service...though we mightn`t have enough money for food or to repair our own cars....and knowing that in reality it was going to by something frivolous for the mog or his newest interest?
How did HE feel when we stayed in abusive marriages/wayhomes/wow fiels..whatever the sitution beacuse we were told that was what he expected?
How did HE feel when half the folks looking to him were told that they no longer were allowed to have that spiritual *connection* because now they had to go through their spouses?
If he`s there....maybe he`s feeling a bit used as well.
(Sadie)) thanks...not to worry friend, this is all part of the healing and grow...trust me.
See I will go out on a limb here...I will EVEN say that I believe that twi taught and utilized the word to the point where they were able to shut OUT the very voice of God...
I cannot tell you how many times I vigorously shut him out by mistaking him for evil old man nature. I fiercly ignored his voice of protest everytime I subjected myself to some new indignity being introduced by twi by ferociously running scriptures through my mind so that I could live with myself and the choices I was makeing.
quote:Thank you zix, I admire and respect you enormously, that you would care enough to try to help me see things more circumspectly...is apreciated...Thankyou for taking the time...
I apologise if I dissapoint you with my anger...i guess after finally finding a voice after all of these years...I have a few things that I want to say.
(((Rascal))) I can't think of a single time where you haven't utterly failed at disappointing me. :D-->
The Secret Signature of the Day has been cancelled by the HTML Police.
quote:Guess that is what I hear ....is that NOT what is really been said when you tell me to quit being a victim.... oldies? am I mis reading you when you say *just eat the fish and spit out the bones*? That hey, the degradation you suffered........the soul consuming ... life sucking ....youth robbing situations would not be a problem...you would be just fine if you would just focus on the good of twi???
Rascal, I view "spitting out the bones" as a good thing; you view it as a bad thing. Our experiences with TWI were so very different that I don't know if we'll ever have agreement whether TWI was a godly organization or a devilish organization. To be fair, I think it was both at the same time.
quote:But still I ask why? To use a quote that may make some cringe, I ask "what's the profit?" ... the question is WHY do you feel the need to do it? ...
Tom, like everyone else, I have significant time invested in TWI, and I'd like to continue to express my viewpoint about it. That's the best answer I can give you at this time.
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Abigail
Wow!!!!!
Rascal, your story is sooooo much like mine.
"So is it any different.... whether control over an individual is achieved by use of superior force... a weapon...or the scriptures?"
Different? Yes. But are they potentially equally damaging in different ways? Again, yes.
I have experienced both. I will say this though, it was much clearer to me when it was physical force and that made it much easier for me to take a stand against it and get out.
Oldiesman,
" "The limits of tyrants are prescribed by those whom they oppress." I like to look at my time in The Way in a more positive sense. I want to "eat the fish and spit out the bones." "
I think there is much validity to this. However, some suffered more than others, were hurt more, damaged more deeply. Some just naturally recover more quickly than others too. I agree, there is a point where we have to recognize our own role in our victimization (as Rascal pointed out the women who are doing it to themselves). But it is not for me or you or anyone else to decide for another at what point they are or should be ready to move out of "victim" and into "recovered victim" or even into "victory".
Additionally, even when we've healed or mostly healed, there will be "triggers" which will bring up the old hurts and angers. Over time, those too begin to fade, but again, it is not for one to decide for another.
And finally, by bringing our stories to the front and telling them, perhaps even reliving them to some degree or another, we can help others realize they are not alone, not the only ones, and that they too can heal.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
Abigail,
I agree with you. This forum is for talking things out, which, in itself, sometimes, can be very healing.
I could see in your posts that you felt very manipulated and you have every right to talk about it. That's what GS is for. I don't see you or rascal or myself portraying ourselves as victims, nor do I see any of us asking for sympathy. We're simply stating what happened and hoping to find some closure in our own lives with what happened and hopefully helping someone else in the process by comparing notes.
Fencie
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Trefor Heywood
All TWI ended up as were control freaks turning God into a control freak by claiming that he is absolutely on their side.
Never question, always obey (and pay).
Now that certainly fits my definition of a cult!
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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oldiesman
Abigail said:
In other words, I should just be quiet and not express my viewpoint?
OF COURSE it's up to others decisions. ALL I AM DOING is expressing a point of view.
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rascal
Shoot oldies .... I guess that I just keep overestimating you.
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excathedra
when it comes to certain matters of others' hearts, no don't express your viewpoint
?
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oldiesman
The open exchange of ideas is what Greasespot is all about. Sometimes things are said that cut into my heart like a knife, as well. But that's all part of participating in a public forum. No viewpoints are immune from scrutiny and examination. If that changes, I'm sure Pawtucket will let us know.
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rascal
Oldies... your *exchanges* generally appear to be a thinly diguised attempt to justify twi`s behavior.
Damn right you are going to draw some flack when you say what happened to us was REALLY ok becaaaaaause... of whatever
When you say oh it wasn`t that bad....just get over it you *victim* you....it is cold ...very cold.....gosh you have made that dirty shamefull word.
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excathedra
i was being sarcastic oldies
?
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excathedra
ps. when you were a young lad, did dr. wierwille ever ask you for a blowjob ?
using the Word of course....
?
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Zixar
rascal: You know you have my utmost admiration and respect, and always will. I think, perhaps, you might be going a bit overboard on Oldiesman on this thread. You've certainly suffered at TWI's hands and there's no disputing that. I'm truly sorry it ever happened to you, and I pray God that it never happens again, not to any woman. (or man, for that matter)
Oldiesman had a different experience in TWI, as did I. At the time, I was greatly saddened when TWI-1 fell apart because of the good times I had with our little Twig of believers. I thought the whole thing was that dumb jock Martindale's fault and were it not for him, all would be happyTwigland again. Between the time I went to my last Twig and the time I stumbled across Waydale, I was quite happy all alone in my little PFAL-world, and did the best I could to please God, orange-book style. I just held on to the memories, but longed for the fellowship lost.
After discovering that Martindale was just a worm in a big rotten apple, I found it a lot easier to get over the "loss" of TWI. In that regard, I'm doing what Oldiesman/JAL said--don't let myself be a victim forever. It's an apples and oranges thing, though. One eventually forgets a skinned knee (me); it's a colossal task to forget an amputated leg (you).
[shrug] That's all I got out of what he was saying.
Oldiesman: While your viewpoint shouldn't be censored, it might be more prudent to express it a bit more circumspectly on threads such as these. Unless I have totally misread you and you ARE saying what rascal thinks you are, that is.
The Secret Signature of the Day has been cancelled by the HTML Police.
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rascal
Fence...agreed...Talking about this stuff has so NEVER ever been a ploy for *sympathy* as some avow.
It was and continues to be all about finally recognising being manipulated (and that it is ok to be angry)... the weapons that were employed to assure compliance...no matter what form the abuse and robbery took........God was hidden behind....scriptures were the camoflage used to mask the evil perperated.
.....anytime one of us comes forward with these stories exposing the evil experienced ..there are usually guys who come along and tell us either that it never really happened...or it wasnt really that bad or or it really was our faults...we wanted it all along....OR even if it WAS devistating to you personally...that doesn`t matter because some of the rest of us got the *word*!!
Only thing I can figure out about why our stories are upsetting to some is that maybe they threaten ones perceptions of twi...........
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Abigail
Oldies, you innacurately read between the lines. What I said is what I meant to say, no hidden message. Like you, I was expressing a point of view. I value your input as much as anyone else's, even when I disagree, because it provokes thought. Hell, I even agreed with some of what you said and expressed that.
Perhaps, as the written word lacks tone of voice and facial expression, you read my response has being much harsher than it was intended, as sometimes happens when others read your posts.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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oldiesman
Zix,
I'm not sure how more circumspectly i could express myself on this thread, except to just be quiet.
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rascal
(((Zix))) thankyou... I am sorry ... I certainly don`t intend to be hard on oldies...sorry if that is how it is percieved.
Maybe I AM misreading him....Maybe I am lumping him in a catagory with others ....I get real mad when I feel like what we went through is ok because ...
a) it didn`t happen...
b) if it did happen it was ok because you... probably deserved it...
c) on the remote chance it DID happen and that it was as bad as you say... it really IS all good because we recieved the word like it hasn`t been taught like the first century..
Guess that is what I hear ....is that NOT what is really been said when you tell me to quit being a victim.... oldies? am I mis reading you when you say *just eat the fish and spit out the bones*? That hey, the degradation you suffered........the soul consuming ... life sucking ....youth robbing situations would not be a problem...you would be just fine if you would just focus on the good of twi???
I am SAYING that in *MY* *opinion* being in twi AS a woman SUCKED !!!! Almost every bit of the 10 plus years of involvement ...somebody was manipulating me to do things that were unpleasant or take something from me...
When you oldies want to wax nostalgic and say...but yeah it was really ok...and you just need to look at the nice things...I grow very angry...
I`ll bet you as a man might very well HAVE had a wonderfull time...maybe you were a leader....at any rate you were closer to the top of the food chain closer to the light and nutrients.......what the rest of us (namely the women and the children) many times experienced was the excrement that was dropping down continuously from those above.
Thank you zix, I admire and respect you enormously, that you would care enough to try to help me see things more circumspectly...is apreciated...Thankyou for taking the time...
I apologise if I dissapoint you with my anger...i guess after finally finding a voice after all of these years...I have a few things that I want to say.
Oldies...if I have misread you, if I am being unfair, or ugly... my sincerest apologies...
If I haven`t and your position is as I percieve...then I believe you to be one cold fish.
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Tom Strange
OM, I don't take your posts as saying one way or another that things did or didn't happen. I take them more along the lines of "you people need to get over it, whatever it was".
I'm just wondering, not trying to censor or anything, but... why?
Why do you feel a need to comment to or about the folks who have shared their experiences?
Sure, you're entitled to your opinions, beliefs, etc. This is an open forum, no question.
But still I ask why? To use a quote that may make some cringe, I ask "what's the profit?"
Why do you always feel the need to comment to those who are telling their story? Again, the question isn't THAT you are within your rights and able to do it... the question is WHY do you feel the need to do it?
I don't really understand why. And I can't really think of a valid reason other than "because you can". Which isn't really a good reason.
Do you think you're in any way promoting any healing in this area?
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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rascal
Ok ok...the topic wasn`t supposed to be about abuse and whether or not we should just *get over it*....or figure out whether or not I a victim wallowing in it or allowed to still be mad...it is supposed to be about using the *WORD* to control us ...be we men women or children....leadership or not....THIS is what angers me....even MORE than the abuses .
Something that was supposed to be good and wholesome....God and the bible....was the tool utilized to control our lives and actions...
I think I could have fought back against a gun or physical force....but how much MORE difficult is it to actually fight back against what God supposedly wants??
We were taught to have great reverence and respect for that word...to put it above everything.....it was the hook...the snare
If you had ANY thoughts contrary to what was being demanded...it was *Satan* tricking you...
If you hesitated to comply with your leadership...you were rebellious and bound for destruction........
If you didn`t immediatly comply with the head of the household...you were posessed with a lesbian spirit to be reviled and viewed with disgust....If the spouse couldn`t keep you in line...he was *spiritually* weak....if there was sickness or problems of ANY kind in your life or your marriage it was due to the head of household blowing it somewhere....if you didn`t follow leaderships instructions...you were treated as a pariah by everyone you knew....
The fear of being outside the will of God ensured complete unquestioned compliance from us...to consider any other action was to be allowing Satan in.
The *WORD* was wielded like a ball bat.
I am not even claiming that the *word* taught was necessarily a bad thing....I am saying that AFTER teaching it and instilling reverence and respect...it was then used...USED to force us into unwholesome miserable situations.
[This message was edited by rascal on January 15, 2004 at 13:49.]
[This message was edited by rascal on January 15, 2004 at 14:09.]
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sadie
I don't say a hell of a lot here because someitmes I may touch a nerve of someone that continues to be hurting very badly. To be hurt, as bad as some of the posters (both mentally and physically), I could never relate too or feel their pain.
Please know that I deeply want for your pain to go away so true peace and happiness can be a big part of your life.
Sometimes I forget how TWI made some of the most compassionate and loving people to be arrogant and demeaning to others. I have seen that this attitude is still around within some posters who have not yet recovered what was stripped of them also.
I'm certainly not here to take up for TWI but to read what could have possibly happened to me if each one of you had not opened your hearts to me.
Thank You GS and each one of you for preventing me from the pain and suffering that could have been a part of my life had I not have found you.
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rascal
Tom Srange, thankyou for understanding...Abigail, thanks for letting me borrow your line....
You know....as ....ed as I am about being used....I gotta wonder...if ther IS a God ...how does HE feel about HIS name being an instrument used to force people to comply...
How did HE feel when the ones looking to him were forced into unwanted servitude>?
How did HE feel when we were killing our babies because we thought it was what he required?
How did HE feel when we faithfully gave our money for his service...though we mightn`t have enough money for food or to repair our own cars....and knowing that in reality it was going to by something frivolous for the mog or his newest interest?
How did HE feel when we stayed in abusive marriages/wayhomes/wow fiels..whatever the sitution beacuse we were told that was what he expected?
How did HE feel when half the folks looking to him were told that they no longer were allowed to have that spiritual *connection* because now they had to go through their spouses?
If he`s there....maybe he`s feeling a bit used as well.
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rascal
(Sadie)) thanks...not to worry friend, this is all part of the healing and grow...trust me.
See I will go out on a limb here...I will EVEN say that I believe that twi taught and utilized the word to the point where they were able to shut OUT the very voice of God...
I cannot tell you how many times I vigorously shut him out by mistaking him for evil old man nature. I fiercly ignored his voice of protest everytime I subjected myself to some new indignity being introduced by twi by ferociously running scriptures through my mind so that I could live with myself and the choices I was makeing.
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Zixar
The Secret Signature of the Day has been cancelled by the HTML Police.
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oldiesman
Rascal, I view "spitting out the bones" as a good thing; you view it as a bad thing. Our experiences with TWI were so very different that I don't know if we'll ever have agreement whether TWI was a godly organization or a devilish organization. To be fair, I think it was both at the same time.
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oldiesman
Tom, like everyone else, I have significant time invested in TWI, and I'd like to continue to express my viewpoint about it. That's the best answer I can give you at this time.
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Tom Strange
OM, I can respect that... then please, express your viewpoint on TWI, NOT on the folks who suffered... cool?
peas
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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