It depends on what "administration" (haha) of the Way you were referring to.
In the Way's "Grace Administration" Weirwille and company felt buying houses and leasing cars and property was no big deal. Just count the cost and makethe payments.
In the "Skywalker becomes Darth Vader" phase LCM phase (whether he was ever skywalker is totally not the point - it's just for reference)it started out fairly simple - try not to go in debt. Which then started the - well leasing a car isn't "best" when 1+2=3. That ever changing formula became something along the lines of - don't go in debt when X=G4c+/- 0sdif0sojivsojdf.... ad nauseaum. Eventually basing their entire theology off of one verse "Owe no man anything".
They INTERPRETED this to mean at no point could you / should you owe something financially. Except they couldn't answer the simplest questions like: isn't a one year lease for a home debt? -- to which if pressed they would say something like - "yeah but you can get out of it if you really need to."
Of course that begged the question, couldn't I sell my new home, motorcycle, RV, boat if I needed to to get out of it? To which, they would never answer that question but deflect to your motivation in wanting to purchase the said item. Why can't you save and buy it with cash? It's a sin if you want something and try to purchase it without cash. Even insinuating you were operating out of lust and implying you might be opening yourself to "spirit possesion".
The real truth of the matter is that all that crap was instituted at a time when TWI was strapped financially and didn't want to have to provide staff members the funds to actually get ahead in life and wanted to encourage their followers to free up ever more money to "plurality give". Then when LCM received his legendary "revelation" to make the corpse go full time all of the above problems instantly replicated to the enth degree.
One of the gals here, I know her real name but forget her handle, wrote a research paper studying the uses of the words owe, borrow sin etc... in the new testament. She presented that to the ministry and they never even bothered to write her back. The conclusion of the paper was that what is a sin is to make a commitment (of any kind - finacially or otherwise) and then fall behind in it - that is what owe means. If you are "current" on your commitments you are fulfilling what you said you would do.
Obviously, this approach would allow people to decide what commitments they want in their life and if they could handle them. Some of the people of the way would have felt a freedom to rush right out and perhaps make commitments they really couldn't keep. BUT that is what is called freedom of choice. The way didn't feel that people were "spiritual" enough to handle the truth so like mushrooms - they kept us in the dark and fed us dang.
I believe I have that research paper on my computer - it might even be on this site - pm me if you want me to send it to you
...Some excellant points presented on this thread. Of course, Martindale twisted the verses to meet his desired end...his "debt doctrine" was ludicrous at best. It was totally illogical and destructive at the same time.
It's amazing to me that people swallowed this poison pill...I left in 1987 when darth martinfart first started his fear and loathing campaigns. Sins of debt?...What kind of sin is involved with what twi has done to so many people? Suicides, broken marriages, financial ruination, lost careers...what does twi "owe" these people?
It would seem that if the entire payment process was sin then after someone had sinned by taking out a loan - wouldn't they be better off to stop sinning and stop paying it back? :D-->
There were certain exceptions to the debt policy, which you were allowed to have and still be eligible to participate in Advanced Class stuff, run a fellowship: child support/alimony and medical bills were two that spring to mind, seems like there were a total of five.
If you owe on a mortgage, that's debt, right? What's the problem...you owe the person or bank money for your house and it ties you down so you can't move light (was that what's its called)?
Well, what about if you sign a lease on an apartment...aren't you promising to pay a year's worth of rent in twelve installments? (or 2 years in 24 installments or whatever)
Isn't that a form of debt as well (because you are agreeing to owing something)?
Just wondering...this debt stuff didn't start up until after i'd gone.
(Or did everybody have to live on month to month places)
Twi taught that when it came to abundant sharing...we OWED God money! Well...seems that God almighty has painted us into a corner here...
Being in debt is sin...We are inherently in debt to God (twi)...therefore:
It's sinful to owe money on a mortage for a house that you will end up owning, but it's NOT sinful to owe God (twi) money perpetually. If debt is sin, why did God put us into a perpetual state of debt?
If you owe on a mortgage, that's debt, right? What's the problem...you owe the person or bank money for your house and it ties you down so you can't move light (was that what's its called)?
Well, what about if you sign a lease on an apartment...aren't you promising to pay a year's worth of rent in twelve installments? (or 2 years in 24 installments or whatever)
Isn't that a form of debt as well (because you are agreeing to owing something)?
Just wondering...this debt stuff didn't start up until after i'd gone.
That is exactly what I am talking about. If you are paying rent, you are still obligated to pay that whether it is a month, year, two year lease or what ever. The Way Disciples program, as far as I can remember, required people to get a month to month lease, I guess so they could move around if needed. Still, it is a debt, an obligation. If you rent for life, as they do in twi, you are in debt for life. Unless you are diligently trying to save to buy a house in cash, you are willingly staying in debt. How could anyone stay an Adv. Cl. Grad or corps person!?
I think from all this we see what we already knew which was this debt teaching in the ministry was totally wacked.
Napkinlady was one who saw this many years ago and decided to go to the Bible and really see what it says. That paper makes a hell of a lot of sense. Thank you Napkinlady! I think I may show it to my innie family.
Here's one more nonsensical real life example from her paper...
quote:
I got delivered from the condemnation I had because I had chosen the foolish way out of debt. I had sold my house that was mortgaged and I would have been able to pay it off by now, or if not now, I am sure it could have been paid off by the time I save up enough to buy one cash while paying someone else rent.
Another think she said was how she felt she couldn't ask certain people to fellowship, like her landlord. She knew that if he came that eventually they would tell him he had to change professions. lol
Thanks again to all for adding to the ammo I needed. Now all I need to the courage to start that conversation with the family.
Yes, Chris Jordan / Napkinlady's research paper on debt is phenomenal. It's very well put together and follows all of the TWIt research keys. Rico Spaghetti tried to dismantle this teaching in his tape to the wc that was never shared outside the corps household in our area. I have notes on it. I'll have to see if I can find them.
If the new lurkers (and old lurkers for that matter ) haven't read Napkinlady/Chris Jordan's research paper on debt, I highly recommend it. She follows TWI's "research guidelines" to a "T" which, sadly and predictably, can't be said about Rico Spaghetti's.
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Horse Called War
Hey Lindy,
It depends on what "administration" (haha) of the Way you were referring to.
In the Way's "Grace Administration" Weirwille and company felt buying houses and leasing cars and property was no big deal. Just count the cost and makethe payments.
In the "Skywalker becomes Darth Vader" phase LCM phase (whether he was ever skywalker is totally not the point - it's just for reference)it started out fairly simple - try not to go in debt. Which then started the - well leasing a car isn't "best" when 1+2=3. That ever changing formula became something along the lines of - don't go in debt when X=G4c+/- 0sdif0sojivsojdf.... ad nauseaum. Eventually basing their entire theology off of one verse "Owe no man anything".
They INTERPRETED this to mean at no point could you / should you owe something financially. Except they couldn't answer the simplest questions like: isn't a one year lease for a home debt? -- to which if pressed they would say something like - "yeah but you can get out of it if you really need to."
Of course that begged the question, couldn't I sell my new home, motorcycle, RV, boat if I needed to to get out of it? To which, they would never answer that question but deflect to your motivation in wanting to purchase the said item. Why can't you save and buy it with cash? It's a sin if you want something and try to purchase it without cash. Even insinuating you were operating out of lust and implying you might be opening yourself to "spirit possesion".
The real truth of the matter is that all that crap was instituted at a time when TWI was strapped financially and didn't want to have to provide staff members the funds to actually get ahead in life and wanted to encourage their followers to free up ever more money to "plurality give". Then when LCM received his legendary "revelation" to make the corpse go full time all of the above problems instantly replicated to the enth degree.
One of the gals here, I know her real name but forget her handle, wrote a research paper studying the uses of the words owe, borrow sin etc... in the new testament. She presented that to the ministry and they never even bothered to write her back. The conclusion of the paper was that what is a sin is to make a commitment (of any kind - finacially or otherwise) and then fall behind in it - that is what owe means. If you are "current" on your commitments you are fulfilling what you said you would do.
Obviously, this approach would allow people to decide what commitments they want in their life and if they could handle them. Some of the people of the way would have felt a freedom to rush right out and perhaps make commitments they really couldn't keep. BUT that is what is called freedom of choice. The way didn't feel that people were "spiritual" enough to handle the truth so like mushrooms - they kept us in the dark and fed us dang.
I believe I have that research paper on my computer - it might even be on this site - pm me if you want me to send it to you
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Some excellant points presented on this thread. Of course, Martindale twisted the verses to meet his desired end...his "debt doctrine" was ludicrous at best. It was totally illogical and destructive at the same time.
It's amazing to me that people swallowed this poison pill...I left in 1987 when darth martinfart first started his fear and loathing campaigns. Sins of debt?...What kind of sin is involved with what twi has done to so many people? Suicides, broken marriages, financial ruination, lost careers...what does twi "owe" these people?
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My3Cents
It would seem that if the entire payment process was sin then after someone had sinned by taking out a loan - wouldn't they be better off to stop sinning and stop paying it back?
:D-->
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Horse Called War
For anyone who want to read Chris Jordan's research on Debt that was submitted to the TWI board of directors please visit:
http://www.waychrist.com/featured_writers/debt.htm
Lindy makes a great point:
Debt to TWI was a deeper, more scarring sin than anything they could think of.
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Oakspear
There were certain exceptions to the debt policy, which you were allowed to have and still be eligible to participate in Advanced Class stuff, run a fellowship: child support/alimony and medical bills were two that spring to mind, seems like there were a total of five.
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markomalley
Well, here's a question about debt, sort of:
If you owe on a mortgage, that's debt, right? What's the problem...you owe the person or bank money for your house and it ties you down so you can't move light (was that what's its called)?
Well, what about if you sign a lease on an apartment...aren't you promising to pay a year's worth of rent in twelve installments? (or 2 years in 24 installments or whatever)
Isn't that a form of debt as well (because you are agreeing to owing something)?
Just wondering...this debt stuff didn't start up until after i'd gone.
(Or did everybody have to live on month to month places)
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lindyhopper
Thanks you guys.
HCW, was that "Napkinlady's" paper you are talking/ posting there.
I never really read it the previous times it was posted. I will this time.
OMG! I may have to start researching the Bible again to help get my family out of the ministry!
:D-->
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Danny
So all 50 limb leaders rode in leased cars and a few other choice folks. That's a lot of sin in the camp.
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smurfette
oak
Last I heard from family member...those exceptions are no longer valid cept alimony/child support-butI think that has to be "current"
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outintexas
Don't you know you shouldn't ask "foolish and unlearned" questions?
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Horse Called War
yes Lindy - that is her.
It is a fascinating read.
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Horse Called War
wrong thread
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GrouchoMarxJr
Another thought...not to split hairs, but....
Twi taught that when it came to abundant sharing...we OWED God money! Well...seems that God almighty has painted us into a corner here...
Being in debt is sin...We are inherently in debt to God (twi)...therefore:
It's sinful to owe money on a mortage for a house that you will end up owning, but it's NOT sinful to owe God (twi) money perpetually. If debt is sin, why did God put us into a perpetual state of debt?
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lindyhopper
That is exactly what I am talking about. If you are paying rent, you are still obligated to pay that whether it is a month, year, two year lease or what ever. The Way Disciples program, as far as I can remember, required people to get a month to month lease, I guess so they could move around if needed. Still, it is a debt, an obligation. If you rent for life, as they do in twi, you are in debt for life. Unless you are diligently trying to save to buy a house in cash, you are willingly staying in debt. How could anyone stay an Adv. Cl. Grad or corps person!?
I think from all this we see what we already knew which was this debt teaching in the ministry was totally wacked.
Napkinlady was one who saw this many years ago and decided to go to the Bible and really see what it says. That paper makes a hell of a lot of sense. Thank you Napkinlady! I think I may show it to my innie family.
Here's one more nonsensical real life example from her paper...
Another think she said was how she felt she couldn't ask certain people to fellowship, like her landlord. She knew that if he came that eventually they would tell him he had to change professions. lol
Thanks again to all for adding to the ammo I needed. Now all I need to the courage to start that conversation with the family.
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Belle
Yes, Chris Jordan / Napkinlady's research paper on debt is phenomenal. It's very well put together and follows all of the TWIt research keys. Rico Spaghetti tried to dismantle this teaching in his tape to the wc that was never shared outside the corps household in our area. I have notes on it. I'll have to see if I can find them.
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Belle
If the new lurkers (and old lurkers for that matter
) haven't read Napkinlady/Chris Jordan's research paper on debt, I highly recommend it. She follows TWI's "research guidelines" to a "T" which, sadly and predictably, can't be said about Rico Spaghetti's.
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