Belle, I too am amazed at the insight of people here. Rascal, Your post just struck a nerve with me. A good nerve. I think that was my point in my first post.
Just because we get married does not mean the hubby is now Gods favorite and the woman must just lay down and take crap from her husband. God did not make the human spirit for that. How can any women that is in your friends shoes be truly happy? Ohh yeah it was wonderful before they were married. When they did get married things changed quickly. All of a sudden it was not the man she married. With the twi and their controling doctrine. She felt she had no choice. She loves God and is trying to do God's will and bless her heart for that. As rascal said. It almost took God to lift a 2x4 and wrap her with it to get her attention. I don't know if I will ever forget your story rascal.
Marriage is hard enough for 2 people to have a "good" marriage. Belle I can't believe what your friend must be thinking about the man she loved to just switch so fast as the way he treated her. I agree she must do something drastic to get his attention and then let him decide.
Thanks guys.....really, I am humbled by the effort that was enacted to help me *hear* again.
Dear oak brought up a very valid point with me however....there are bullies (wives) who missaplied the *guardian of the home* teaching....I must confess that I do not even know if it is biblical....but at the time, as a wafer ....it was a concept that I respected ...I could accept this and be enabled to become a strong person....unswayed by meanness, temper tantrums, intimidation........
Up to this point I had not been able to help him. I didn`t speak up, not because he was so horrid, but because I believed that God forbade it. I was precluded from helping him as I was ill equipped to deal with alcoholism with twi teaching.
Hey - just saw this thread and browsed through it.
Yeah - I waited 5 years for John to decide it was time to get out but we had (and still have) a relationship that was built on other things besides TWI.
I was willing to wait because John was willing to listen to me b!tch about it. He was not totally enamored of LCM or the WAP class or the way things were running at HQ's. We never ditched our friends who left or M&A'd anyone.
I guess you could compare it to sky-diving... you're in the plane, you have the chute on, you know what will happen, you've decided you want to do it, and all you have to do is jump. But you get scared and you stare out at the open sky wondering what it would be like to actually jump - you can almost taste it, but you're too afraid to act. Afraid of the unknown and quite comfortable in the plane.
Other times, people jump and forget to pull the rip-cord and end up getting hurt (well, worse than hurt). You've got to know when it's the right time, and prepare yourself as much as possible.
I had lots of friends outside of TWI - more than who were IN TWI. Most of our close TWI friends got out a long time ago. We'd been in our area for 20 years - hadn't moved around. We had an established business, a home and great neighbors. We hadn't been social with Wayfers in a long time - except the ones who we knew we could commiserate with about the problems in TWI. We also didn't tell the Poobahs in our area our business. We mastered the art of vague answers!
Oh - and just for the record - we didn't leave, we got kicked out. We were ready to jump and well prepared - but got pushed out before we could jump - which was fine with me. Either way we landed on our feet.
I guess you could compare it to sky-diving... you're in the plane, you have the chute on, you know what will happen, you've decided you want to do it, and all you have to do is jump. But you get scared and you stare out at the open sky wondering what it would be like to actually jump - you can almost taste it, but you're too afraid to act. Afraid of the unknown and quite comfortable in the plane.
Now THAT is something I can really relate to.........thanks Hope! :)-->
Thanks everyone. I have THOROUGHLY enjoyed reading what all have said. I think we have lots of sane voices on gs and a wealth of talent to go around.
This subject reminds me of something I read in Our Daily Bread for March 10th. It says "all rights reserved" in the front and has a copyright sign in the front so I hope its ok to post part of it. Here goes:
Rabbits are timid creatures that pop out of their holes every morning, trying to avoid everything (except other rabbits), eat their food, and jump back into their holes in the evening. "Whew? We made it through another day," they'd say if they could talk.
Rabbit-hole Christians are a lot like that. They eat lunch with other Christians at work and relate almost exclusively with fellow-believers in their church. They avoid socializing with unbelievers and wouldn't think of accepting an invitation to one of their parties. No wonder unbelievers equate being a Christian with a kind of aloof self-righteousness.
No one could say that about Jesus. He actually invited Himself to the home of Zacchaeus, a notorious tax collector. His congeniality among disreputable people earned Him the title of "a friend of tax collectors and sinners" (Matt. 11:19). He reached out to such people because He knew He couldn't help them without becoming their friend. Jesus never said anything He shouldn't have said, nor did He laugh at off-color stories. He won people's respect by caring for them.
Jesus has equipped us with the Holy Spirit and assured us that He'll be with us so we can follow His example. Let's guard against being rabbit-hole Christians. Herb Vandr Lugt
Apparently this isolationist mentality isn't unique to twi and offshoot followers.
Belle, I totally empathize with your friend because I used to live that way. Add me to the list of friends who are now praying for her freedom and recovery, however that plays out:-)
Following is a Private Topic Exchange that Rascal and I had this afternoon that we both agreed was germaine to the topic
Rascal:
I didn't want to derail the topic, or dilute your point on the SAHM's thread, but I wanted to run this by someone...you!
Your point about the wife being the "guardian of the home" is interesting. This was something that was taught in varying forms in TWI, and latched onto by my ex-wife.
While I think it was very brave, and showed a lot of determination and love for your children AND Mark by doing what you did, it was also a concept that was abused.
We often hear on GS about the women who were sidelined and dominated by their men. The voices of the men who were emotionally blackmailed and mentally castrated are not so often heard. Maybe it's because we men frequently don't want to admit that a woman pushed us around, or feel that what we went through was minor compared to what our sisters had to put up with.
The man was often reminded that he was "the head". What the heck did that mean? Especially when we were also told that husband and wife were to be in agreement? In some areas and in some marriages it meant that the husband lorded it over the wife and treated her as a second-class believer. What it meant in my area was that the men got blamed for everything, since they were "the heads". My wife would hold up decisions by claiming that, since we had to be in agreement we could not move on something that I thought we should do, nor even discuss it...just to "hold it in abeyance" until we agreed. What that meant was that things would be put on hold until I agreed with her.
Her understanding of "guardian of the home" was that everything that happened within our four walls was her decision to make. No "agreement", no discussion, she was "the guardian" and that was that. She did not, or would not see, the contradiction between my wishes being subject to her veto, but her decisions being beyond question and not subject to discussion or debate.
Eventually her role as guardian was used as a justification to keep me away from my own children, even when I still lived there.
You can see why I initially didn't want to post this. The whole "guardian of the home" concept makes me see red, yet in your case it saved your family, it saved your marriage.
By the way...
quote:
Now you may want to tag me as nuts or whatever...
Nope, not at all. I believe that God woke you up. Hooray!
quote:
by rascal posted Mar 15, 2005 2:27 PM
awww ((((Oak))) Damn it, I am so sorry. I don`t even know if the guardian of the home thing is biblical.
I only know that it was the only thing that would have given me the courage to stand up against mark unafraid.
Do you understand? It wasn`t that Mark was so horrible, it was that I believed that I had no right to protect myself or my children...we were at the mercy of whether or not Mark decided to be nice or mean....whether he was kind or abusive...whether he decided to be spiritual or carnal..... I thought that God required this of me and the children....I would not consider standing up to him because I had been taught that God could not bless me if I went against the head of the house...no matter how bad he got....I had to just try to be better wife....
TWI did not equip you or me to deal with abusive spouses dear oak....they simply gave the abusive partner the ammunition that they needed to imflict their selfishness on the rest of the family with impunity.
Please dear oak...that teaching may have been one hundred percent wrong, but it was what I needed when I was still waybrained in order to make my first break from the bondage of twi teachings....
Can you cut and paste both of these back onto the main thread, as I think that you bring up some very valid points.....this teaching should never have been used to keep you from your family.
I do not want anyone thinking that I advocate bullying.....
I needed to tell that girl in language that she could accept that she didn`t need to be afraid......
I did not consider the repercussions on you and other wonderfull men who`s wives have manipulated the scriptures in order to behave in an evil manner without suffering guilt.
Please, put this back in with the rest of the thread.....it is pertinant.
TWI did not teach us how to be sucessfull in mariage.Location: lives in a shoe | Registered: June 13, 2002
posted Mar 15, 2005 3:09 PM
I understand how it all helped you, just an example of how TWI twisted good things and sound concepts to gain control. They used the "submissive wife" thing to keep you down, and used "husband as the head" to keep me off balance.
You did the right thing for your family, did the right thing in sharing it, and posting it.
quote:
by rascal posted Mar 15, 2005 3:24 PM
(((oak))) I think that you are very right, I hope that you will post this so that others see that it wasn`t a guy or girl thing....it`s just like you said.....TWI twisted good things and sound concepts to gain control....the spouse was always off balance .... there was always a biblical *principle* to hold us in check....
Thank you oak. It wasn`t just the Moms that lost their identity. Sometimes I think it is just that we are more vocal here...lol.
After so many years of molding myself into what twi thought I should be....denying my worth, denying my interests...all in the interest of being what twi termed a *Godly woman*....I guess that I am feeling a bit rebellious....
I was so afraid that if I voiced my concerns or objected to our treatment, that I would be branded a *contentuous woman*.
If anyone became aware of my spiritual shortcomings.....it would reflect badly on my husband...it would mean that he as corpes had made an unwise choice....his very spirituality and leadership capabilities would be called into question....
See Mark never knew that I was not allowed to be myself....he never knew what I had been taught or why I was such a wimp....it was all bondage that I kept myself under because of twi teaching.
Belle, if your friend could understand God`s love for her....that he doesn`t require her to be miserable in this life.....
I hate for her to feel *honor bound* to stay in a situation that she is uncomfortable with.
Maybe her husband is very nice and she doesn`t want to lose him and is willing to endure life in twi....that is her choice.....but it is not required.
Whatever choice she makes....she will not be alone.
Thank y'all very much! Rascal and Oak, you two are priceless! :D--> You know how much I care for both of you! Thank you for sharing your private conversation with us, it helps a lot!
I think in TWI it was so hard to find balance. We were so expected to be perfect and in TWIt terms that means extreme. Those of us trying so dang hard to be perfect because of our hearts and/or because of our fear were too quick to behave much more severely with unreasonable demands on ourselves and those around us.
Oak, I think I went from being the passive, abused underdog to the scrappy domineering wife. I was tired of being constantly reminded that my husband was the head of our house and, in our house, that meant I was to be a silent, obedient partner. Like the wild animals who exhibit the fight or flight reactions to attack, I began to fight. I became obstinate and antagonistic. I also began passive-aggressive retaliation by lying and drinking and trying to stay away from home as much as possible. I quit trying to please my husband and I began to resent any time he had control of a situation.
I think that worked both ways in TWI. With most families one of the partners is the dominant one and the other becomes the wounded wild animal. I saw men castrated by women who took liberties with their "keeper of the home" responsibilities. The men weren't in control except in public and outside the home (like in the office). I saw it quite a bit with some wc couples. The guys knew how to talk, teach and confront people, but when you hear them talk about at home or hear their wives talk, you KNEW that the man's self-esteem had to be so beaten down that he didn't realize any of his good qualities.
My friend has been very touched by the prayers and offers of advice and support. Y'all are truly wonderful and, even if it seems to you that you are repeating the same thing over and over again, please continue to do so. More and more people are finding GSpot and continue to wake up from the fog they've been in. :D--> I KNOW FIRST HAND!
Recommended Posts
justloafing
Belle, I too am amazed at the insight of people here. Rascal, Your post just struck a nerve with me. A good nerve. I think that was my point in my first post.
Just because we get married does not mean the hubby is now Gods favorite and the woman must just lay down and take crap from her husband. God did not make the human spirit for that. How can any women that is in your friends shoes be truly happy? Ohh yeah it was wonderful before they were married. When they did get married things changed quickly. All of a sudden it was not the man she married. With the twi and their controling doctrine. She felt she had no choice. She loves God and is trying to do God's will and bless her heart for that. As rascal said. It almost took God to lift a 2x4 and wrap her with it to get her attention. I don't know if I will ever forget your story rascal.
Marriage is hard enough for 2 people to have a "good" marriage. Belle I can't believe what your friend must be thinking about the man she loved to just switch so fast as the way he treated her. I agree she must do something drastic to get his attention and then let him decide.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
back atcha oak, please respond.
Thanks guys.....really, I am humbled by the effort that was enacted to help me *hear* again.
Dear oak brought up a very valid point with me however....there are bullies (wives) who missaplied the *guardian of the home* teaching....I must confess that I do not even know if it is biblical....but at the time, as a wafer ....it was a concept that I respected ...I could accept this and be enabled to become a strong person....unswayed by meanness, temper tantrums, intimidation........
Up to this point I had not been able to help him. I didn`t speak up, not because he was so horrid, but because I believed that God forbade it. I was precluded from helping him as I was ill equipped to deal with alcoholism with twi teaching.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
Hope R.
Hey - just saw this thread and browsed through it.
Yeah - I waited 5 years for John to decide it was time to get out but we had (and still have) a relationship that was built on other things besides TWI.
I was willing to wait because John was willing to listen to me b!tch about it. He was not totally enamored of LCM or the WAP class or the way things were running at HQ's. We never ditched our friends who left or M&A'd anyone.
I guess you could compare it to sky-diving... you're in the plane, you have the chute on, you know what will happen, you've decided you want to do it, and all you have to do is jump. But you get scared and you stare out at the open sky wondering what it would be like to actually jump - you can almost taste it, but you're too afraid to act. Afraid of the unknown and quite comfortable in the plane.
Other times, people jump and forget to pull the rip-cord and end up getting hurt (well, worse than hurt). You've got to know when it's the right time, and prepare yourself as much as possible.
I had lots of friends outside of TWI - more than who were IN TWI. Most of our close TWI friends got out a long time ago. We'd been in our area for 20 years - hadn't moved around. We had an established business, a home and great neighbors. We hadn't been social with Wayfers in a long time - except the ones who we knew we could commiserate with about the problems in TWI. We also didn't tell the Poobahs in our area our business. We mastered the art of vague answers!
Oh - and just for the record - we didn't leave, we got kicked out. We were ready to jump and well prepared - but got pushed out before we could jump - which was fine with me. Either way we landed on our feet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Now THAT is something I can really relate to.........thanks Hope!
:)-->
skyrider
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
Thanks everyone. I have THOROUGHLY enjoyed reading what all have said. I think we have lots of sane voices on gs and a wealth of talent to go around.
This subject reminds me of something I read in Our Daily Bread for March 10th. It says "all rights reserved" in the front and has a copyright sign in the front so I hope its ok to post part of it. Here goes:
Rabbits are timid creatures that pop out of their holes every morning, trying to avoid everything (except other rabbits), eat their food, and jump back into their holes in the evening. "Whew? We made it through another day," they'd say if they could talk.
Rabbit-hole Christians are a lot like that. They eat lunch with other Christians at work and relate almost exclusively with fellow-believers in their church. They avoid socializing with unbelievers and wouldn't think of accepting an invitation to one of their parties. No wonder unbelievers equate being a Christian with a kind of aloof self-righteousness.
No one could say that about Jesus. He actually invited Himself to the home of Zacchaeus, a notorious tax collector. His congeniality among disreputable people earned Him the title of "a friend of tax collectors and sinners" (Matt. 11:19). He reached out to such people because He knew He couldn't help them without becoming their friend. Jesus never said anything He shouldn't have said, nor did He laugh at off-color stories. He won people's respect by caring for them.
Jesus has equipped us with the Holy Spirit and assured us that He'll be with us so we can follow His example. Let's guard against being rabbit-hole Christians. Herb Vandr Lugt
Apparently this isolationist mentality isn't unique to twi and offshoot followers.
Belle, I totally empathize with your friend because I used to live that way. Add me to the list of friends who are now praying for her freedom and recovery, however that plays out:-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Following is a Private Topic Exchange that Rascal and I had this afternoon that we both agreed was germaine to the topic
Rascal:
I didn't want to derail the topic, or dilute your point on the SAHM's thread, but I wanted to run this by someone...you!
Your point about the wife being the "guardian of the home" is interesting. This was something that was taught in varying forms in TWI, and latched onto by my ex-wife.
While I think it was very brave, and showed a lot of determination and love for your children AND Mark by doing what you did, it was also a concept that was abused.
We often hear on GS about the women who were sidelined and dominated by their men. The voices of the men who were emotionally blackmailed and mentally castrated are not so often heard. Maybe it's because we men frequently don't want to admit that a woman pushed us around, or feel that what we went through was minor compared to what our sisters had to put up with.
The man was often reminded that he was "the head". What the heck did that mean? Especially when we were also told that husband and wife were to be in agreement? In some areas and in some marriages it meant that the husband lorded it over the wife and treated her as a second-class believer. What it meant in my area was that the men got blamed for everything, since they were "the heads". My wife would hold up decisions by claiming that, since we had to be in agreement we could not move on something that I thought we should do, nor even discuss it...just to "hold it in abeyance" until we agreed. What that meant was that things would be put on hold until I agreed with her.
Her understanding of "guardian of the home" was that everything that happened within our four walls was her decision to make. No "agreement", no discussion, she was "the guardian" and that was that. She did not, or would not see, the contradiction between my wishes being subject to her veto, but her decisions being beyond question and not subject to discussion or debate.
Eventually her role as guardian was used as a justification to keep me away from my own children, even when I still lived there.
You can see why I initially didn't want to post this. The whole "guardian of the home" concept makes me see red, yet in your case it saved your family, it saved your marriage.
By the way...
Nope, not at all. I believe that God woke you up. Hooray!
posted Mar 15, 2005 3:09 PM
I understand how it all helped you, just an example of how TWI twisted good things and sound concepts to gain control. They used the "submissive wife" thing to keep you down, and used "husband as the head" to keep me off balance.
You did the right thing for your family, did the right thing in sharing it, and posting it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Thank you oak. It wasn`t just the Moms that lost their identity. Sometimes I think it is just that we are more vocal here...lol.
After so many years of molding myself into what twi thought I should be....denying my worth, denying my interests...all in the interest of being what twi termed a *Godly woman*....I guess that I am feeling a bit rebellious....
I was so afraid that if I voiced my concerns or objected to our treatment, that I would be branded a *contentuous woman*.
If anyone became aware of my spiritual shortcomings.....it would reflect badly on my husband...it would mean that he as corpes had made an unwise choice....his very spirituality and leadership capabilities would be called into question....
See Mark never knew that I was not allowed to be myself....he never knew what I had been taught or why I was such a wimp....it was all bondage that I kept myself under because of twi teaching.
Belle, if your friend could understand God`s love for her....that he doesn`t require her to be miserable in this life.....
I hate for her to feel *honor bound* to stay in a situation that she is uncomfortable with.
Maybe her husband is very nice and she doesn`t want to lose him and is willing to endure life in twi....that is her choice.....but it is not required.
Whatever choice she makes....she will not be alone.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Thank y'all very much! Rascal and Oak, you two are priceless!
:D--> You know how much I care for both of you! Thank you for sharing your private conversation with us, it helps a lot!
I think in TWI it was so hard to find balance. We were so expected to be perfect and in TWIt terms that means extreme. Those of us trying so dang hard to be perfect because of our hearts and/or because of our fear were too quick to behave much more severely with unreasonable demands on ourselves and those around us.
Oak, I think I went from being the passive, abused underdog to the scrappy domineering wife. I was tired of being constantly reminded that my husband was the head of our house and, in our house, that meant I was to be a silent, obedient partner. Like the wild animals who exhibit the fight or flight reactions to attack, I began to fight. I became obstinate and antagonistic. I also began passive-aggressive retaliation by lying and drinking and trying to stay away from home as much as possible. I quit trying to please my husband and I began to resent any time he had control of a situation.
I think that worked both ways in TWI. With most families one of the partners is the dominant one and the other becomes the wounded wild animal. I saw men castrated by women who took liberties with their "keeper of the home" responsibilities. The men weren't in control except in public and outside the home (like in the office). I saw it quite a bit with some wc couples. The guys knew how to talk, teach and confront people, but when you hear them talk about at home or hear their wives talk, you KNEW that the man's self-esteem had to be so beaten down that he didn't realize any of his good qualities.
My friend has been very touched by the prayers and offers of advice and support. Y'all are truly wonderful and, even if it seems to you that you are repeating the same thing over and over again, please continue to do so. More and more people are finding GSpot and continue to wake up from the fog they've been in.
:D--> I KNOW FIRST HAND!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.