I have made my mistakes probably will make more, I chose to trust and try still.
What Im saying is some stay in these marriages miserable or not .
complain , be miserable , see the wrongness, and stay.
I think every person has made mistakes in judgement of who someone is or isnt, it happens . I know I have. it is a lucky few who do it right and find the 'right " mix with alot of work in any relationship.
Im talking about these marriages that they often claim to like and yet live like that or just complain for ever and never see the problem or USE the problem as an advatage for their own agenda. never make a change .
Let me tell you about what happens when you try to leave...
Xxxxx and I had just had a huge fight about something really stupid - he was upset because I paid too much attention to our cat, in his opinion. He wanted me to get rid of the cat - I refused and fought to keep the cat. (That cat was like a child - he was just that one-in-a-million pet that you get - if you're lucky!) It got to the point where Xxxxx backed me into a corner - physically - wrapped one hand around my throat, and the other hand grabbed the top my head, while he s-c-r-e-a-m-e-d at me for a good 10 mins. - it felt like eternity. He twisted his body sideways and pinned me so I couldn't knee him. I remember him yelling over-and-over "I just want to take the top of your head off and make your brain work the way it should! I wish I was God so I could do it!"
I defused him as best I could - somehow got him to calm down and to see that the cat wasn't so evil. (Was this twisted or what?) And when he finally went somewhere, I started packing the car - yuppers, I was gonna LEAVE! He got back, and I told him it was over - I was headed back home. All I needed was my books, clothes, and the cat!
Well, he called leadership and got this goon of a branch coordinator to come over - So, guess what? This jerk comes in my house, yelling at me for leaving! I told him to get out and went back to the bedroom to pack. I told him what happened and he said - I'm not kidding - "I don't blame him! I'd've wanted to do the same thing!" and then something like "God shouldn't have given women brains - just p---ies!" Like, that's all women were good for. He did give Xxxxx hell for laying a hand on me - and talked me down from leaving by playing the "who are you going to go to? You're leaving the ministry that gave you the Word! You're not going to be anybody without us - you vowed before God to submit to this man, etc." - I'm sure many of you have heard the same thing.
So, I stayed. I didn't want to. I wasn't raised to allow a man to even speak to me like this - never mind let him touch me the way Xxxxx did. This wasn't the only incident like this - there were more - some worse. This was relatively mild, overall. It wasn't the only time leadership shamed, feared, and conned me into staying. I hated them for it but felt sooo trapped.
So, you build your life around a ministry that teaches you to forsake your unbeliever friends and family. You build your life around an emotionally and mentally unstable man. You put thousands of miles between you and your family or people who could help you. You believe it just might get better, all you need is the next ___________ class. You get hit over the head with scripture enough to believe that something WILL happen to YOU if you leave - and since you're the bottom of the leadership food chain because you're a married woman...
Well... Yeah, who wouldn't feel they had no choices but to stay in a mess like that?
It was only when we really hit rock bottom and had NOTHING left to loose, that I wasable to leave - and it was soooo liberating! So, yeah, I was miserable, I complained (when I didn't have to wear a twig-smile), and I saw the wrongness of it all... but now do you understand why many women stay?
Like I said Im single so I do not understand going theextra mile to make someone stop being abusive.
Im not afraid of losing relationships , but I have been influenced by people I love and made wrong choices on their influence . learned form it to never again.
YOU always had the motivation to be true to your self , you are a victor !
You always knew what better and truer love was and is you saw it in your cat even.
for yu it was just a matter of time. congrats on a new life! be happy life is good and you wont do that again right?
I have always felt if I lose my own self I would no longer be able to give anything to anyone. so nothing to lose comes down to me mostly , if IM happy the whole world is happy ya know?
"So, you build your life around a ministry that teaches you to forsake your unbeliever friends and family. You build your life around an emotionally and mentally unstable man. You put thousands of miles between you and your family or people who could help you. You believe it just might get better, all you need is the next ___________ class. You get hit over the head with scripture enough to believe that something WILL happen to YOU if you leave - and since you're the bottom of the leadership food chain because you're a married woman...
Well... Yeah, who wouldn't feel they had no choices but to stay in a mess like that?
It was only when we really hit rock bottom and had NOTHING left to loose"
Yup, me too. When I reached the point that the risk of death was worth it, I left. When you've never been in such a situation, it is very difficult to understand the way the mental (not even talking here about the physical) abuse wears you down over time. It is insidious, and it usually starts out, much like TWI did, with a slow erosion of boundaris so that you often aren't even aware that it is occuring.
Amen Chaz and Morgan, I have been to the place where immenet death held less fear for me than staying in an abusive situation.
It is a horrible exixtance, it takes many years of weaing down ones self esteem and worth to get to the place where you feel you have no other option :(
I was married to my first husband in twi, and I had a boyfriend in twi at the time I left. Both relationships and all in between were HELL!
Because of twi, I felt compelled to keep my marriage commitment to a drug addict. I found out 3 years in to the marriage about his drug use. I tried to get counseling with leaders, but they never wanted to hear the REAL problems. They only wanted to tell us to read Volume 5 "Heirs Together...". That was crap. I never got to tell them his drug use was killing our marriage. He didn't go to 12 step programs because twi didn't sanction them. It was all a horrible nightmare. I learned from all of that and vowed I would never marry again unless I knew there were no secrets. I remember calling up our twi coordinator when we were having a heated argument. The TC chastised me because I was going over hubby's head.
The boyfriend I had when I left was a miserable old bastage. He was so full of hate and judgment. One example was him saying "If we get married and have kids and our daughter gets pregnant, that's it. She'll be out!" I looked at him in dismay as to why he even had thoughts like that for someone who didn't even exist. I told him that I would be there for my kids NO MATTER WHAT!! I told him that included if they decided to be gay democrats. You should have seen the fire in him. hehehehe!!! He was frustrated that I didn't submit to his stupidity. He even had the audacity to tell my sister that I didn't listen to him. My sister and I laugh about it now. I ended that relationship telling him I didn't like his personality because it was offensive and rude and that I had no intention of ever marrying him. Goodbye arsehole.
I kept that boyfriend around because he was the only "believer" that came around in my late childbearing years. I thought that God had given me the best available. It was sad. I am sooo glad I woke up. I am glad that marriage #1 was so bad that I refused to do it again. Had I not met my hubby I have now, I would still stay single than be in a terrible marriage.
It was all because of twi that we gave in to the BS. Commitment was the major blinder towering over our heads. Commitment HAS to be hand-in-hand with LOVE. True love. Not some twisted image of love that exists in twi. That's why a lot of women in twi put up with what they did. It takes getting out of the cult to see it sometimes. What got us there in the first place? The bullshirt that "any two believers can make a marriage work" was dangled over our heads.
I bet most of the marriages or relationships didn't start the way they ended. I still get shocked thinking about how husband #1 changed during our honeymoon. He had me, so he didn't have to try to get me anymore. I was depressed at my honeymoon. It should have been a moment to remember. But it was the strong teaching in COMMITMENT that kept me there. Commitment is admirable, but it is not in an abusive or dysfunctional relationship.
Wow, Wafer not--he changed during your honeymoon. How sad and scary.
My decision to marry my husband was one of the few smart things I did during TWI. I married him because he reminded me of my dad--and my dad was a kind, generous, hard working, fun loving man. My husband does have those qualities.
Even so, the TWI beliefs on marriage, plus nosy, unkind, unfriendly, unloving, looking for a fault leadership, made for some ugly times for us.
Some ladies from Texas may recall a UNIQUE teaching at a women's mtg. in the late 80's when we were told emphatically by the BC's wife that, as women, we sometimes just have to EAT &$*# when it comes to our men. At the time we all nodded & acted like we got it; the gist seemed to be that whatever he dishes out, you take. It stuck in my head bec. the eat &$*# part was repeated SEVERAL times.
As it turned out, apparently there was much &$*# to be eaten in THAT marriage. On the one hand, I felt kind of sorry for her, but not too much as she was bloody obnoxious to pretty much everybody. But, that one teaching had an effect on me for years.......
I can't say if it's his usual scary stuff, as I'm only about half way through; so far it's boring in that regard, I like the creepy stuff.
However...............The first several chapters any women who ever was married while in TWI, or even in a seriouse relationship, will understand and relate to.
There are enough writings on abuse in marriage to fill any library, but this one (and it is about abuse and escape and control) is written, I dunno, in a way that's not clinical. Of course, it's a novel of Kings, so it's a story, but ya'll will know Rose and understand her life and you'll know her husband and the beliefs that drive him.
Just a short teaser: Rose is in a shop and comes across a painting. The painting is poor quality, according to some, but to Rose it's the most beautiful thing she's seen. It speaks of freedom to her, as well as liberty of her own life; the first thing she'll own of her own choosing, the only thing her husband didn't pick out for her or stop her from buying regardless of how much she loved and wanted it.
Any woman who's ever found the courage to leave an abusive, controlling partner will find herself in this story. Any woman who's been in TWI and found the courage to dig deep for the courage to maintain in the puke and .... of the marriage controlled by TWI will find herself in the story too.
Some ladies from Texas may recall a UNIQUE teaching at a women's mtg. in the late 80's when we were told emphatically by the BC's wife that, as women, we sometimes just have to EAT &$*# when it comes to our men. At the time we all nodded & acted like we got it; the gist seemed to be that whatever he dishes out, you take. It stuck in my head bec. the eat &$*# part was repeated SEVERAL times.
As it turned out, apparently there was much &$*# to be eaten in THAT marriage. On the one hand, I felt kind of sorry for her, but not too much as she was bloody obnoxious to pretty much everybody. But, that one teaching had an effect on me for years.......
I wonder if that BC's wife is still enjoying eating &$*# from her hubby.
If she is, then I gotta admit that I respect her for still practicing what she preached though I don't agree with it.
We came back to Texas in 1987 after we left TWI and knew a couple who had their own following...at the time we laughingly referred to it as "the other way". I'm curious who the sh*+-eating wife was. We were in Ft. Worth in the early 80's before going into the corps and it seems I heard that same "nutritional suggestion" given then.
Tonto, ha ha ha - I didn't know I was part of "the other way". As for identities, I'll just say it was a bona fide snake oil salesman & his psycho wife, both prev. Way corpse.
I was always leery of the Leader's Stepford Wife who said, "Follow your man, no matter how wrong he is!" because most of the women I knew who said stuff like that are the ones who really wore "the pants" in the marriage!
During "da fog", I remember LCM ranting during WC night hook ups about several upper leadership couples who left. He very often blamed the wife - saying that she deceived her husband and made him leave - she was the reason for their decision, in other words. Funny, he could never blame the men - or seldom blamed the men - he usually had issues with the women...
Knowing what I know now about LCM and his preference for some women, I also wonder how many of those women he really 'knew'.....
When people get married they make a vow before God.
When people get ordained they also make a vow before God.
When yourmarried you begin to have more responsibility in the marriage , family bills etc.. a shared life.
some in twi married TWI, and everything eles was second or nothing at all .
Well that is a personal choice I think between the vows one made with God and the person.
It is not wrong In my opinion to put a marriage vow before a "job".
if God ordained these guys for service with Jesus , Jesus can travel to an new organization , ya know.
but Divorce is a different story in the bible altogether.
Both John Lynn and John S. got divorced when they left soo what does that say? about what you claim LCM said?
So, uh.... pond...
:unsure:
... are you saying that someone shouldn't divorce because they made a vow before God, and a vow for being clergy should NOT come before the marriage, but since some clergy got divorced than that makes them hypocrits?
Im saying a vow with God is between God and the person.
Not where they get a paycheck.
Im saying twi took vows with God to be vows with the organization .
sure anyone can be ordained anyone at all . But in twi it was assumed by many the clergy because they had been or are involved in an organization twi, they no longer made a vow TO GOD.
I do not believe so I think if a person is called of God to make a vow to HIM , regardless of how you employer may think of you you still made a vow before God that must be addressed before the JOB.
In denominations clergy leave for various reason , a bigger church a smaller church a different location etc. they do not lose the clergy title , it is taken with them as a vow made to God not to any particular location or group of people other than Who they feel they want to serve at the time.
As far as marriage goes many think "grace" will cover for the fact they now chose to not continue in a vow made before God .. it is betwen the person and God again ... what is written is indeed quite serious about divorce , do I think people should be as careless as they seem to be regarding their spirtual obligations? short answer no.
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pond
yeah I know Shaz,
I have made my mistakes probably will make more, I chose to trust and try still.
What Im saying is some stay in these marriages miserable or not .
complain , be miserable , see the wrongness, and stay.
I think every person has made mistakes in judgement of who someone is or isnt, it happens . I know I have. it is a lucky few who do it right and find the 'right " mix with alot of work in any relationship.
Im talking about these marriages that they often claim to like and yet live like that or just complain for ever and never see the problem or USE the problem as an advatage for their own agenda. never make a change .
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ChasUFarley
Let me tell you about what happens when you try to leave...
Xxxxx and I had just had a huge fight about something really stupid - he was upset because I paid too much attention to our cat, in his opinion. He wanted me to get rid of the cat - I refused and fought to keep the cat. (That cat was like a child - he was just that one-in-a-million pet that you get - if you're lucky!) It got to the point where Xxxxx backed me into a corner - physically - wrapped one hand around my throat, and the other hand grabbed the top my head, while he s-c-r-e-a-m-e-d at me for a good 10 mins. - it felt like eternity. He twisted his body sideways and pinned me so I couldn't knee him. I remember him yelling over-and-over "I just want to take the top of your head off and make your brain work the way it should! I wish I was God so I could do it!"
I defused him as best I could - somehow got him to calm down and to see that the cat wasn't so evil. (Was this twisted or what?) And when he finally went somewhere, I started packing the car - yuppers, I was gonna LEAVE! He got back, and I told him it was over - I was headed back home. All I needed was my books, clothes, and the cat!
Well, he called leadership and got this goon of a branch coordinator to come over - So, guess what? This jerk comes in my house, yelling at me for leaving! I told him to get out and went back to the bedroom to pack. I told him what happened and he said - I'm not kidding - "I don't blame him! I'd've wanted to do the same thing!" and then something like "God shouldn't have given women brains - just p---ies!" Like, that's all women were good for. He did give Xxxxx hell for laying a hand on me - and talked me down from leaving by playing the "who are you going to go to? You're leaving the ministry that gave you the Word! You're not going to be anybody without us - you vowed before God to submit to this man, etc." - I'm sure many of you have heard the same thing.
So, I stayed. I didn't want to. I wasn't raised to allow a man to even speak to me like this - never mind let him touch me the way Xxxxx did. This wasn't the only incident like this - there were more - some worse. This was relatively mild, overall. It wasn't the only time leadership shamed, feared, and conned me into staying. I hated them for it but felt sooo trapped.
So, you build your life around a ministry that teaches you to forsake your unbeliever friends and family. You build your life around an emotionally and mentally unstable man. You put thousands of miles between you and your family or people who could help you. You believe it just might get better, all you need is the next ___________ class. You get hit over the head with scripture enough to believe that something WILL happen to YOU if you leave - and since you're the bottom of the leadership food chain because you're a married woman...
Well... Yeah, who wouldn't feel they had no choices but to stay in a mess like that?
It was only when we really hit rock bottom and had NOTHING left to loose, that I wasable to leave - and it was soooo liberating! So, yeah, I was miserable, I complained (when I didn't have to wear a twig-smile), and I saw the wrongness of it all... but now do you understand why many women stay?
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Belle
mj/pond, would that we could all be as wise, noble and intelligent as you.
It must get tiring passing judgement on so many people who just don't have it together like you.
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pond
I believe when we know better we do better.
Like I said Im single so I do not understand going theextra mile to make someone stop being abusive.
Im not afraid of losing relationships , but I have been influenced by people I love and made wrong choices on their influence . learned form it to never again.
YOU always had the motivation to be true to your self , you are a victor !
You always knew what better and truer love was and is you saw it in your cat even.
for yu it was just a matter of time. congrats on a new life! be happy life is good and you wont do that again right?
I have always felt if I lose my own self I would no longer be able to give anything to anyone. so nothing to lose comes down to me mostly , if IM happy the whole world is happy ya know?
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Morgan
"So, you build your life around a ministry that teaches you to forsake your unbeliever friends and family. You build your life around an emotionally and mentally unstable man. You put thousands of miles between you and your family or people who could help you. You believe it just might get better, all you need is the next ___________ class. You get hit over the head with scripture enough to believe that something WILL happen to YOU if you leave - and since you're the bottom of the leadership food chain because you're a married woman...
Well... Yeah, who wouldn't feel they had no choices but to stay in a mess like that?
It was only when we really hit rock bottom and had NOTHING left to loose"
Yup, me too. When I reached the point that the risk of death was worth it, I left. When you've never been in such a situation, it is very difficult to understand the way the mental (not even talking here about the physical) abuse wears you down over time. It is insidious, and it usually starts out, much like TWI did, with a slow erosion of boundaris so that you often aren't even aware that it is occuring.
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rascal
Amen Chaz and Morgan, I have been to the place where immenet death held less fear for me than staying in an abusive situation.
It is a horrible exixtance, it takes many years of weaing down ones self esteem and worth to get to the place where you feel you have no other option :(
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Nottawayfer
I was married to my first husband in twi, and I had a boyfriend in twi at the time I left. Both relationships and all in between were HELL!
Because of twi, I felt compelled to keep my marriage commitment to a drug addict. I found out 3 years in to the marriage about his drug use. I tried to get counseling with leaders, but they never wanted to hear the REAL problems. They only wanted to tell us to read Volume 5 "Heirs Together...". That was crap. I never got to tell them his drug use was killing our marriage. He didn't go to 12 step programs because twi didn't sanction them. It was all a horrible nightmare. I learned from all of that and vowed I would never marry again unless I knew there were no secrets. I remember calling up our twi coordinator when we were having a heated argument. The TC chastised me because I was going over hubby's head.
The boyfriend I had when I left was a miserable old bastage. He was so full of hate and judgment. One example was him saying "If we get married and have kids and our daughter gets pregnant, that's it. She'll be out!" I looked at him in dismay as to why he even had thoughts like that for someone who didn't even exist. I told him that I would be there for my kids NO MATTER WHAT!! I told him that included if they decided to be gay democrats. You should have seen the fire in him. hehehehe!!! He was frustrated that I didn't submit to his stupidity. He even had the audacity to tell my sister that I didn't listen to him. My sister and I laugh about it now. I ended that relationship telling him I didn't like his personality because it was offensive and rude and that I had no intention of ever marrying him. Goodbye arsehole.
I kept that boyfriend around because he was the only "believer" that came around in my late childbearing years. I thought that God had given me the best available. It was sad. I am sooo glad I woke up. I am glad that marriage #1 was so bad that I refused to do it again. Had I not met my hubby I have now, I would still stay single than be in a terrible marriage.
It was all because of twi that we gave in to the BS. Commitment was the major blinder towering over our heads. Commitment HAS to be hand-in-hand with LOVE. True love. Not some twisted image of love that exists in twi. That's why a lot of women in twi put up with what they did. It takes getting out of the cult to see it sometimes. What got us there in the first place? The bullshirt that "any two believers can make a marriage work" was dangled over our heads.
I bet most of the marriages or relationships didn't start the way they ended. I still get shocked thinking about how husband #1 changed during our honeymoon. He had me, so he didn't have to try to get me anymore. I was depressed at my honeymoon. It should have been a moment to remember. But it was the strong teaching in COMMITMENT that kept me there. Commitment is admirable, but it is not in an abusive or dysfunctional relationship.
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Bramble
Wow, Wafer not--he changed during your honeymoon. How sad and scary.
My decision to marry my husband was one of the few smart things I did during TWI. I married him because he reminded me of my dad--and my dad was a kind, generous, hard working, fun loving man. My husband does have those qualities.
Even so, the TWI beliefs on marriage, plus nosy, unkind, unfriendly, unloving, looking for a fault leadership, made for some ugly times for us.
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Free Soul
Some ladies from Texas may recall a UNIQUE teaching at a women's mtg. in the late 80's when we were told emphatically by the BC's wife that, as women, we sometimes just have to EAT &$*# when it comes to our men. At the time we all nodded & acted like we got it; the gist seemed to be that whatever he dishes out, you take. It stuck in my head bec. the eat &$*# part was repeated SEVERAL times.
As it turned out, apparently there was much &$*# to be eaten in THAT marriage. On the one hand, I felt kind of sorry for her, but not too much as she was bloody obnoxious to pretty much everybody. But, that one teaching had an effect on me for years.......
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Nottawayfer
I was in Texas in the late 80s. What area are you talking about?
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Shellon
Recommended reading: Steven King's "Rose Madding"
I can't say if it's his usual scary stuff, as I'm only about half way through; so far it's boring in that regard, I like the creepy stuff.
However...............The first several chapters any women who ever was married while in TWI, or even in a seriouse relationship, will understand and relate to.
There are enough writings on abuse in marriage to fill any library, but this one (and it is about abuse and escape and control) is written, I dunno, in a way that's not clinical. Of course, it's a novel of Kings, so it's a story, but ya'll will know Rose and understand her life and you'll know her husband and the beliefs that drive him.
Just a short teaser: Rose is in a shop and comes across a painting. The painting is poor quality, according to some, but to Rose it's the most beautiful thing she's seen. It speaks of freedom to her, as well as liberty of her own life; the first thing she'll own of her own choosing, the only thing her husband didn't pick out for her or stop her from buying regardless of how much she loved and wanted it.
Any woman who's ever found the courage to leave an abusive, controlling partner will find herself in this story. Any woman who's been in TWI and found the courage to dig deep for the courage to maintain in the puke and .... of the marriage controlled by TWI will find herself in the story too.
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FreeFromCults
I wonder if that BC's wife is still enjoying eating &$*# from her hubby.
If she is, then I gotta admit that I respect her for still practicing what she preached though I don't agree with it.
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Free Soul
Tarrant & Johnson counties
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tonto
We came back to Texas in 1987 after we left TWI and knew a couple who had their own following...at the time we laughingly referred to it as "the other way". I'm curious who the sh*+-eating wife was. We were in Ft. Worth in the early 80's before going into the corps and it seems I heard that same "nutritional suggestion" given then.
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Free Soul
Tonto, ha ha ha - I didn't know I was part of "the other way". As for identities, I'll just say it was a bona fide snake oil salesman & his psycho wife, both prev. Way corpse.
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ChasUFarley
I was always leery of the Leader's Stepford Wife who said, "Follow your man, no matter how wrong he is!" because most of the women I knew who said stuff like that are the ones who really wore "the pants" in the marriage!
During "da fog", I remember LCM ranting during WC night hook ups about several upper leadership couples who left. He very often blamed the wife - saying that she deceived her husband and made him leave - she was the reason for their decision, in other words. Funny, he could never blame the men - or seldom blamed the men - he usually had issues with the women...
Knowing what I know now about LCM and his preference for some women, I also wonder how many of those women he really 'knew'.....
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pond
When people get married they make a vow before God.
When people get ordained they also make a vow before God.
When yourmarried you begin to have more responsibility in the marriage , family bills etc.. a shared life.
some in twi married TWI, and everything eles was second or nothing at all .
Well that is a personal choice I think between the vows one made with God and the person.
It is not wrong In my opinion to put a marriage vow before a "job".
if God ordained these guys for service with Jesus , Jesus can travel to an new organization , ya know.
but Divorce is a different story in the bible altogether.
Both John Lynn and John S. got divorced when they left soo what does that say? about what you claim LCM said?
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Bramble
Pond:
Okay, now I'm confused.
What post are you refering to? Putting a marriage vow before a job??? What previous post was this about?
And who claimed LCM said what?
Could you clarify? Because I can't figure out what you're posting about.
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ChasUFarley
So, uh.... pond...
:unsure:
... are you saying that someone shouldn't divorce because they made a vow before God, and a vow for being clergy should NOT come before the marriage, but since some clergy got divorced than that makes them hypocrits?
:blink:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uh, Paw....
We need an emoticon of a smiley face drinking - like a beer or martini or something... I NEED A DRINK!
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pond
Im saying a vow with God is between God and the person.
Not where they get a paycheck.
Im saying twi took vows with God to be vows with the organization .
sure anyone can be ordained anyone at all . But in twi it was assumed by many the clergy because they had been or are involved in an organization twi, they no longer made a vow TO GOD.
I do not believe so I think if a person is called of God to make a vow to HIM , regardless of how you employer may think of you you still made a vow before God that must be addressed before the JOB.
In denominations clergy leave for various reason , a bigger church a smaller church a different location etc. they do not lose the clergy title , it is taken with them as a vow made to God not to any particular location or group of people other than Who they feel they want to serve at the time.
As far as marriage goes many think "grace" will cover for the fact they now chose to not continue in a vow made before God .. it is betwen the person and God again ... what is written is indeed quite serious about divorce , do I think people should be as careless as they seem to be regarding their spirtual obligations? short answer no.
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