20 yrs in TWI, wow, Twig coord, Children's fellowship coord for years...but the end result of my association with TWI was bondage. The lowest point of my life. I could do nothing right.
The things that I would expect God to protect--marriage, family--were the very things being attacked--from inside the Church/fellowship/ministry. There was no miracle, there was no power, no prince on a white horse, just the gritty realization that this way of life did not work for me and mine. It was harmful. It was chipping away at the things I held most dear. It was somwething to escape.
Speaking in tongues did not change things. What finally changed things was a cruel man finally showed his true self to my husband, verifying things I had been saying over the years.(I was one of those who stayed in because spouse didn't want to leave.)
We did alot of 'witnessing' those last couple of years IN with the fellowship. I would meet women, moms, through my kids and think I needed to 'witness' to them. What a joke. Those moms had lives I could only envy, and some where rank unbelievers. Hmmm.
Life without all the way doctrine is much sweeter. Sorry, that is my personal opinion.
Perhaps agnostics had experiences somewhat like that...
No, I didn't see a lot of "miraculous" stuff. And, yeah, I "spoke in tongues", so what? Do you really know what you're doing when you do that? The Bible is certainly vague enough in that regard. Yeah, I know Wierwille had it all figured out and all the scriptures showed it so clearly, yada, yada. But where is the verse that says "You move your lips, your mouth, YOU do the speaking!" etc.? And where's the verse that says that - once you get over you inhibitions and start blurting out some gibberish - that that is an actual language being supplied by God? And furthermore, why the hell would an all-knowing god want his people to even DO such a bizarre thing? Yeah, I know, we can't ask those kind of questions, not our job and all that...
So agnosticism seemed like the only reasonable choice to me. I went on for years, praying, believing, studying and fellowhshipping, just like a good believer should, but I never saw any benefit from it. I prayed, I never got so much as a "hello" in return. I "believed", never saw anything come of it. I fellowshipped, only to wind up getting a good foot-chewing now and then - for no particular reason. There was no discernable evidence that there was an Almighty God, or even of half-assed god for that matter.
What I DID see in my "Christian" period was a lot of desperate people. People desperate to find some sort of evidence that they're not going to really die, but that they're going to get to live on and on. And desperate for comfort, for reassurance. So, if the "miraculous" didn't happen, they helped it along a little bit. Everyday happenings and the odd coincidence took on the attributes of divine intervention. Parking spaces at the front door of the mall, a child recovering from a cold, a promotion at work, and such like all became fodder for the "looky what God did for me" testimonies.
Eventually I started to view all of it with a very jaundiced eye. Why would such a powerful God need to have his effects measured with a micrometer? You sure don't see THAT in THE BIBLE.
And for that matter, why should we lend any credence to The Bible at all? And if we should, then which version? There's literally THOUSANDS of them. And why would Almighty GOD want to be so obtuse about WHAT his word actually is?
Just a few of the questions that finally pushed me over the edge. And now I find - miraculously - that things make MUCH more sense if I take off the "God" glasses and just view them as they REALLY are. Gosh, what a concept...
Click HERE! It's the story you've probably read about how prayer didn't help anyone. This goes against your personal experiences though doesn't it? How do you explain it then? That lots of people praying for Uncle Joe didn't help Uncle Joe get well any better than Aunt Betty who had nobody praying for her? How does a believer in prayer 'splain that? And why would God H. Almighty demand that people beseech Him first before he performed deliverance on His people? Why must He be begged to do what He's said He was going to do anyways? Heal the sick and deliver the infirmed?
But I digress.. you're asking how folks who used to be in a cult could say that personal experiences are no guarantee for the truth? Hmmmm????
I first remember becoming burnt out on religion at about age 5 or 6. I remember looking in the "sanctuary" at our local Lutheran church and thinking to myself "man, this sucks" or words to that effect. Eight or ten years in a Methodist (Reformed) Church didn't help my attitude any. Then WayWorld came along with all sorts of promises of manna from heaven and all sorts of miraculous stuff. And, well, you know how that turned out.
I also had a bit of exposure to the Mormons, being as how the PNW is sorta their territory, but, sorry to say, wasn't particularly taken with their dogma either. But as they say, YMMV...
Thank you George I have always wondered why some like you became agnostic and some like me went the other way when answers just weren't forthcoming.
Interesting about the Lutherans that too was the church of my childhhod, and they affected me exactly the same way . (BTW it never ceases to amaze me how many LDS who converted were once Lutheran)
I think is has to do with the presentation..........
I know that's how the believer crowd likes to dress it up - "pleasure or pressure". That way you can conveniently pat yourself on the back for withstanding same (not like those lesser folk who caved), and simultaneously reinforce those same beliefs, despite yet getting any sort of evidence that they're real.
Personally though, when I reverted to my native agnosticism, it was neither a particularly pleasureable or pressured departure. Just a progressive dwindling of any belief in unsubstantiated fables. Life continued on pretty much the same as it had during my "believer" mode. I just didn't have to go to the goddam meetings anymore...
For many agnostics/atheists, it was less coming to not believe what they formerly had than it was coming to a decision to quit playing make-believe about things they never fully believed, but tried to.
I can't remember ever being fully convinced about any religious belief. Before, during, and after my time with TWI, I wanted and tried to believe various things. I claimed to believe them, acted like I believed them, and pretty well fooled everyone around me into thinking that I did believe them. The one thing I think I never did was to actually believe them. Finally, I decided to quit the pretense, and have been happier ever since.
Bramble - Don't apologize for your belief or point of view. This thread isn't to tear anyone down or try to change anyone - just more to get information, really. I respect others beliefs - even if it's not in any diety or higher power at all.
Question for you: Do you feel your life is better without God or just without The Way, religion, etc.?
=======================================
George - Interesting posts - I especially like your commment:
Everyday happenings and the odd coincidence took on the attributes of divine intervention. Parking spaces at the front door of the mall, a child recovering from a cold, a promotion at work, and such like all became fodder for the "looky what God did for me" testimonies.
I have never believed that God was into something as mundane as a parking place or whatever. The Word says that our time on this earth is like next to nothing to him - a small thing. I used to think he must get sick of us just asking for crap all the time - why did we deserve it or need it or whatever.... Yes, I still believe in God, and I still pray - but not like I did in TWI (and certainly not for the BOT! LOL!).
=======================================
Sudo - You asked some questions that are hard to explain. We've asked them too. Please don't laugh... but we went through this when we lost a cat (yes... a cat.... okay?... yes, you can laugh....) but he was a special cat - just the coolest that ever lived. He was that one in a million pet you get to have in life. He died rather suddenly, but not of an accident or anything. We had prayed for him when he was sick, but it seemed like God didn't hear our prayer - he shouldn't have died. Hubby is still somewhat "mad" at God for that - it rattled him a bit - but he still believes. He just wonders "Why did he have to go? Why couldn't or didn't God heal the cat or save him?" I guess when you get down to it, it's like - where's God's credibility or integrity in this area?
(I'm sure I'll get some hate mail for that one, but oh well....)
=======================================
LG -
Question: Why do you lump agnostics in with athiests? Do you consider them to be the same thing?
I found your comments about how you just stopped pretending to believe to be interesting - there was a thread a few years ago about people who faked SIT. It was amazing how many people spoke up on that one - came out of the closet.
=======================================
Okay, would an agnostic also belive in the "BIG BANG" theory? Or could an agnostic person believe in Creationism or a form of it? (As in, a higher power pulling everything together....)
For those of us who experience a powerful prayer life and see miracles in our lives, it seems unfathomable that others can come to the conclusion that there is no God. My heart goes out to them, because I cannot begin to imagine a life without God. But I guess that is just me wishing that others could experience the same kind of joy I have had in my life. Those people probably wish for me that I could also experience life through their eyes and come to the same conclusions as they do. Guess that what's so great about freedom of will, each gets to decide for him/herself how to direct his/her life. I am glad I have chosen to have God at the center, because He always comes through and helps to turn around times of trouble and turmoil, and make the good times even sweeter.
Bramble - Don't apologize for your belief or point of view.
*I am used to many people being horribly offended that you have chosen a different belief than their own.
This thread isn't to tear anyone down or try to change anyone - just more to get information, really. I respect others beliefs - even if it's not in any diety or higher power at all.
*That is refreshing!
Question for you: Do you feel your life is better without God or just without The Way, religion, etc.?
*I feel my life is far better than it once was. For all my efforts, being the 'good girl' type, Christianity never worked for me as it did for others. I think it was the wrong path for me.
As far as religion... As a small box to live in, full of commands and demands imposed by others, with dire consequences, yes, I have problems with that. Groups tend to leave me pretty cold anyway. Post TWI truama maybe. But as far as meaningful ritual/meditation/prayer/ symbolism that results in inspiration, or comfort or celebration, that makes life richer I think.
For those of us who experience a powerful prayer life and see miracles in our lives, it seems unfathomable that others can come to the conclusion that there is no God.
You see things happen in your life and attribute them to God; others see the same thing and attribute them to random occurences, karma, hard work, or any number of other things. None of us really know for sure, but we choose to asign a source to the events in our lives. I'm no less happy if one of my children recovers from a deadly illness if I attribute it to a really sharp doctor and my kid's immune system than if I believe that God did it.
My heart goes out to them, because I cannot begin to imagine a life without God.
With all respect suda, save your pity. Those of us who don't believe as you do are not lacking any depth in our lives, it's just different.
This thread has been on my mind all evening. I may be totally wrong, but it seems to me that at least two groups of people emerged from twi. (I'm sure more than two, and my thoughts here may not include many with our shared history in twi.) For some of us, twi gave us something we had been searching for - a way to finally connect with God in a personal, intimate way. We learned to communicate with Him, our prayer life blossomed, and we learned how to recognize the still, quiet voice that is God. We learned how to search the scripture and find answers to questions personal to us - not from a Way magazine article, a SNS tape, a twig fellowship, but by going to God and having Him teach us individually. And we were fortunate to be surrounded by a lot of good people that were also on their personal spiritual quest, and were there for us to share with, both the good times and the bad. We had dear friends that we could turn to in times of trouble, who really cared about us and wanted to help, and who would join together with us in prayer and learning to find the solutions to problems, answers to questions, etc. We saw the signs, miracles, and wonders in our lives that the Bible had told us were available, and we rejoiced that we had finally found the desires of our hearts, a God that loved us individually, and that we knew He was always by our side. That's not to say everything with our lives was peaches and roses, for indeed it was not. I don't think life is ever that way for anyone. We have lots of times of trouble, but it contains enough of the "signs, miracles, and wonders" that we always have hope and the desire to take that next step and keep living life to the fullest no matter what comes our way. (Sometimes God's hand seems to just be sprinkling in our lives, other times His blessings seem to be raining down.) Through our years with twi we built on this foundation, and continued to do so after twi, and still live that way to this day. God is alive to us, and always will be.
Then there seems to be a group that never experienced any spiritual ephipanies, never saw the hand of God at work in their lives. I wonder if
The people I'm referring to are people who were in TWI. They spoke in tongues. They probably went WOW. They probably even saw God or some supernatural being work in their lives at some point - something amazing had to have happened.... sometime, somewhere....
just never happened for them. But since everyone else was always talking about their positive experiences, this group pretended (this may not be the best choice of words) that these things were happening to them, too. Due to the "group think" mentality many experienced, maybe they were fearful of speaking up and voicing a different tune to the rest of the wayfers. And if these thoughts are correct, then when they left twi it would stand to reason that since God, prayer, etc. had never "materialized" for them in twi, why not leave God, prayer, etc. behind also? I can see where becoming agnostic or atheist would make sense for them.
Maybe God was present in their lives, and they didn't recognize it. Or maybe He wasn't. I don't pretend to know or understand what happens in another person's life. But hopefully, for them, there was at least a little something good that they brought with them from twi. I think for most everyone, we made dear friends there, and are still making new friends today here at GS with people from our shared twi days.
Anyway, as I said earlier, I may be totally off base here. But these are the thoughts I had this evening while pondering the opening post on this thread from ChasUFarley asking how someone involved with twi later became agnostic. I'd welcome any comments people have on my thoughts. ChasUFarley's question is one I have wondered about often, also.
Question: Why do you lump agnostics in with athiests? Do you consider them to be the same thing?
No, but there's plenty of overlap between them. Some people could be accurately called both agnostic and atheist. Some would be better called agnostic by some definitions and atheist by others. For the purposes of most discussions with theists, I think that agnostics and atheists are better lumped together as non-theists, because the real issue is the difference between theism and non-theism.
I don't normally even categorize myself in this manner, but when I do, I consider myself to be an atheist, rather than an agnostic. George Aar considers himself to be an agnostic, rather than an atheist. But I don't see much, if any, difference between his non-theism and my non-theism, though our attitudes about past adventures in theism are slightly different.
Sorry to derail again, but had to respond to Sudo’s comments about the power of prayer. When I was told by a friend about the article (may be the one Sudo has linked to above and I reference excerpts from below) that prayer does not have any effect, my immediate, gut-level response was bull****. Too many times I have seen the powerful, beneficial effects of prayer.
One camp seems to side with this quote (bold supplied by me): “But Paul Kurtz . . . had a simpler response when asked why the study had found no evidence for the power of prayer. "Because there is none," he said. "That would be one answer."”
Another camp sides with these quotes (bold supplied by me):
- “The results of the study provoked discord among doctors and scientists in the US, many of whom questioned the wisdom of subjecting prayer to the conditions of a research project.”
- “Dr Richard Sloan, . . ."The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion."”
- “Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect," he said.”
- “Dr. David Stevens, . . ., told the AP that he believed intercessory prayer could influence people's health, but that scientists were not equipped to measure the phenomenon.”
Also, it’s interesting to note that the prayer participants were told what to pray “The worshippers starting praying for the patients the night before surgery and for the next two weeks, asking God to grant "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications".”
In my opinion, true prayer comes from the heart, it is a one-on-one, personal conversation with God. It is not reading a script from a piece of paper. So, it is questionable whether this scientific experiment even measured true prayer at all. And if it did not, the results are meaningless.
They also note the fact that: “"Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not. God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not," he said.”
Another good conclusion from the study: “As for the new study, he said, "I don’t think... it’s going to stop people praying for the sick."” And why not? Because too many people know how effective the power of prayer is.
As for Sudo’s question, “why would God . . . demand that people beseech Him first before he performed deliverance on His people? Why must He be begged to do what He's said He was going to do anyways? Heal the sick and deliver the infirmed?”
First of all, God does not demand that we pray; it’s our choice whether we do or not. And it is not begging for something He said He was going to do anyway. It’s talking to Him, sharing our thoughts and concerns with Him, and asking for guidance and direction. We can ask for specific outcomes, but that doesn’t mean He’s going to give us exactly what we ask for. At times the sick and infirmed are healed, sometimes they are not. But that’s not our decision, it’s Gods. There are many more variables at play than what we are aware of. But does it hurt to talk with Him, ask Him for deliverance? No. Does it help? I think so. It may not result in the answer we were wanting in that situation, but it does help in building our relationship with Him, every time we go to Him with anything. Since we can’t go visit God, or call him on the phone, the only way we can talk with Him is to pray.
Let’s look at that from another viewpoint. Why do children ask their earthly parents for things? Could be the parents are unaware of something they want or need, and unless the child asks for it, the parent does not know to supply it for the child. Sometimes we know what they need, but wait until they are aware of it enough that they can articulate it themselves, and then ask us for it. Sometimes we know what they need, but they don’t want our help, so we withhold it until they ask for it. And just because they ask for something, does it mean that we automatically give it to them? Of course not. Often as a child when I had a problem, all I wanted was to talk to my parents about it. In our conversations I often came up with the answer to my problem, but would not have without using them as a sounding board. Communication is just as important with our earthly parents as it is with our heavenly Father. And just as it is with our spouses. We may not always agree on everything, but every time we go to each other with our concerns and problems, and talk them out, it brings our hearts closer together, even if the concern or problem is not settled in exactly the way we wanted. Same way with our prayer life with God. It just brings our heart closer to Him when we talk to Him.
Guess there’s no need to go on and on about my beliefs in the power of prayer. People either believe it, or they don’t. But with prayer being in the spiritual realm, I don’t think the effects of it can be measured in physical terms. So I guess I shouldn’t get bothered by someone thinking that an experiment like that should actually prove to anyone who believes in prayer that their beliefs are in error. Guess what got my dander up was what I interpreted as a condescending, bitter tone in the post.
Glad to know that when I want/need prayer or a prayer partner, there are many people who believe in it’s power and are glad to join in with me. And thankful to know that God is there as is my mediator, Jesus Christ, to help me with whatever situation I take to Him.
Suda (stepping down from her soap box, and apologizing again for the derail)
(P.S. Just in case your wondering, I am not here trying to diss my husband. I love him and feel free to respond to his posts, just as I would to any other person’s post.)
I too think twi over-populised ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER YOU ASK IN PRAYER. I believe at times the first part of a prayer request should be for God to let you know if need be whether you should be praying for the desired result or not.
I can't imagine a legion of ministering angels surrounding a sick cat when theres an atheist down the road who is ready to committ his or her life to Christ (if you know what I mean).
And I am certainly not trying to be sarcastic or belligerent here, I love my Siamese cat to bits (and I have had a cat in the past that was 'healed' of a tumour when my bro-in-law prayed 'over' it.
(the only worthwhile thing he ever did for me actually !!)
I too think twi over-populised ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER YOU ASK IN PRAYER. I believe at times the first part of a prayer request should be for God to let you know if need be whether you should be praying for the desired result or not.
I can't imagine a legion of ministering angels surrounding a sick cat when theres an atheist down the road who is ready to committ his or her life to Christ (if you know what I mean).
And I am certainly not trying to be sarcastic or belligerent here, I love my Siamese cat to bits (and I have had a cat in the past that was 'healed' of a tumour when my bro-in-law prayed 'over' it.
(the only worthwhile thing he ever did for me actually !!)
Allen - Yes, TWI's teaching about how God answers prayer - even about the most trivial things - was set up for big let downs. It always struck me as greedy to hit Father up for everything from a parking place (when you really need to be walking that parkin' lot, baby!) to red drapes. Yeah, God can make things "Eph. 3:20", but I sometimes think that in TWI we were expecting that to be the norm - or perhaps it "just happened" (gasp!).
Part of what has really struck me about TWI, now that I've had a few years to put some distance between IT and ME, is that they didn't really w-o-r-s-h-i-p God, did they? We stood and clapped for Rev. Dropshispants all the time, but had less respect for God than the man on the stage. Meetings were so scripted that no one could act on inspiration - or seldom dared to - God was in His neat little box all the time, wasn't he? We were even told what to pray about: "Krista, please lift the Board of Trustees and the Way Corps...." It was vain repition, week after week.
In starting this thread, part of me is also curious if TWI and the whole experience just didn't kill any spiritual interest or desires that someone may have had - even the most tepid believing could have gone stone cold in that situation - like a woman swearing off men after she's burned in a bad romance....
Chas..I think if anyone has a real love for God, just about nothing can 'rock the boat', the Bible is full of examples of that.
Awesome worship can/should be manifested often by way of music and excitement for God, listen to any of Hillsongs demos etc..
I take my hat off to my wife Selina...when we realized that that was one of the 'key' ingredients missing in our services, she set about setting up a worship band for our church (pretty much from scratch).
God blessed us with some very talented musicians from a cupla other churches.
Music plays a very important part in loving worship, just as love songs do in any relationship.
One thing that always perplexes me about the so-called "power of prayer" (and for that matter, "alternative healing" and any other claim of the supernatural) is that usually there are built-in weasel words to account for why it doesn't always bring the desired results.
We can ask for specific outcomes, but that doesn’t mean He’s going to give us exactly what we ask for. At times the sick and infirmed are healed, sometimes they are not. But that’s not our decision, it’s Gods
So what exactly are we talking about when we say "prayer works"? If we can't know in advance what prayers are going to elicit the desired results, and "answers to prayer" are entirely dependent on the whim of a god who's not going to tell us what prayers he's going to answer and what ones he's not, then obviously there can be no scientific test that will measure that, because it's not cause-and-effect, it's the volition of a thinking being..."God".
The problem I see with that point of view is that many Christians use their experience with "answered prayers" as their personal proof that God as they envision him (or her) exists, yet receive results that statistically are equal to random chance.
Does this mean that there is no God? Does this mean that there are no miracles or answered prayers? In my opinion, no. But there is enough doubt to warrant an agnostic position: "I don't know".
Chas..I think if anyone has a real love for God, just about nothing can 'rock the boat', the Bible is full of examples of that.
Awesome worship can/should be manifested often by way of music and excitement for God, listen to any of Hillsongs demos etc..
Music plays a very important part in loving worship, just as love songs do in any relationship.
I guess that means anyone that has had their boat rocked didn't have a real love for God. Isn't the Bible full of examples of God's people that had their boat rocked?
And music is great in helping one "keep the faith", but as you said, it can do that for a secular relationship as well. If you have a real love of God, do you need music to keep the love alive? Your assertions seem contradictory to me.
Indeed, but logic and religion have never been comfortable with each other, IMNSHO.
Despite claims to the contrary, I see religion has being entirely dependant on emotions and feelings. Rational thinking need not apply. Maybe that's why women seem so much more attracted to church-going?
Does this mean that there is no God? Does this mean that there are no miracles or answered prayers? In my opinion, no. But there is enough doubt to warrant an agnostic position: "I don't know".
All those things I "held in abeyance" surfaced as obvious discrepencies in the Bible, after I left the twi cloud. Of course figures of speech can explain it all I guess, but soon it all becomes figurative.
There is much to be gained from basic Christianity, but I think of my hard core very Baptist uncle when I think of the superior attitude that is one of the less admirable qualities of some Christians. The line of some in this discussion seems so condescending toward any that no longer accept the traditional dogma. Some pity those that are still in the twi box, but also pity those that didn't stay in the Bible box they remained in. Others seem to want to subtly undershepherd the agnostic back into the fold, because they understand it is only the hurt of twi that has led them astray.
I'm in favor of outside the box thinking. That kind of thinking can also contain what is in the box (or boxes) Just my four cents (trying to one up My3Cents) .
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Bramble
I'm not agnostic, but I am not Christian...
20 yrs in TWI, wow, Twig coord, Children's fellowship coord for years...but the end result of my association with TWI was bondage. The lowest point of my life. I could do nothing right.
The things that I would expect God to protect--marriage, family--were the very things being attacked--from inside the Church/fellowship/ministry. There was no miracle, there was no power, no prince on a white horse, just the gritty realization that this way of life did not work for me and mine. It was harmful. It was chipping away at the things I held most dear. It was somwething to escape.
Speaking in tongues did not change things. What finally changed things was a cruel man finally showed his true self to my husband, verifying things I had been saying over the years.(I was one of those who stayed in because spouse didn't want to leave.)
We did alot of 'witnessing' those last couple of years IN with the fellowship. I would meet women, moms, through my kids and think I needed to 'witness' to them. What a joke. Those moms had lives I could only envy, and some where rank unbelievers. Hmmm.
Life without all the way doctrine is much sweeter. Sorry, that is my personal opinion.
Perhaps agnostics had experiences somewhat like that...
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George Aar
I think maybe this one has my name on it?
To give you the short answer:
No, I didn't see a lot of "miraculous" stuff. And, yeah, I "spoke in tongues", so what? Do you really know what you're doing when you do that? The Bible is certainly vague enough in that regard. Yeah, I know Wierwille had it all figured out and all the scriptures showed it so clearly, yada, yada. But where is the verse that says "You move your lips, your mouth, YOU do the speaking!" etc.? And where's the verse that says that - once you get over you inhibitions and start blurting out some gibberish - that that is an actual language being supplied by God? And furthermore, why the hell would an all-knowing god want his people to even DO such a bizarre thing? Yeah, I know, we can't ask those kind of questions, not our job and all that...
So agnosticism seemed like the only reasonable choice to me. I went on for years, praying, believing, studying and fellowhshipping, just like a good believer should, but I never saw any benefit from it. I prayed, I never got so much as a "hello" in return. I "believed", never saw anything come of it. I fellowshipped, only to wind up getting a good foot-chewing now and then - for no particular reason. There was no discernable evidence that there was an Almighty God, or even of half-assed god for that matter.
What I DID see in my "Christian" period was a lot of desperate people. People desperate to find some sort of evidence that they're not going to really die, but that they're going to get to live on and on. And desperate for comfort, for reassurance. So, if the "miraculous" didn't happen, they helped it along a little bit. Everyday happenings and the odd coincidence took on the attributes of divine intervention. Parking spaces at the front door of the mall, a child recovering from a cold, a promotion at work, and such like all became fodder for the "looky what God did for me" testimonies.
Eventually I started to view all of it with a very jaundiced eye. Why would such a powerful God need to have his effects measured with a micrometer? You sure don't see THAT in THE BIBLE.
And for that matter, why should we lend any credence to The Bible at all? And if we should, then which version? There's literally THOUSANDS of them. And why would Almighty GOD want to be so obtuse about WHAT his word actually is?
Just a few of the questions that finally pushed me over the edge. And now I find - miraculously - that things make MUCH more sense if I take off the "God" glasses and just view them as they REALLY are. Gosh, what a concept...
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templelady
George, was TWI your only experience with Christianity or was it just the straw that broke the camels back?
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Sudo
Chas,
Click HERE! It's the story you've probably read about how prayer didn't help anyone. This goes against your personal experiences though doesn't it? How do you explain it then? That lots of people praying for Uncle Joe didn't help Uncle Joe get well any better than Aunt Betty who had nobody praying for her? How does a believer in prayer 'splain that? And why would God H. Almighty demand that people beseech Him first before he performed deliverance on His people? Why must He be begged to do what He's said He was going to do anyways? Heal the sick and deliver the infirmed?
But I digress.. you're asking how folks who used to be in a cult could say that personal experiences are no guarantee for the truth? Hmmmm????
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George Aar
Mo,
I first remember becoming burnt out on religion at about age 5 or 6. I remember looking in the "sanctuary" at our local Lutheran church and thinking to myself "man, this sucks" or words to that effect. Eight or ten years in a Methodist (Reformed) Church didn't help my attitude any. Then WayWorld came along with all sorts of promises of manna from heaven and all sorts of miraculous stuff. And, well, you know how that turned out.
I also had a bit of exposure to the Mormons, being as how the PNW is sorta their territory, but, sorry to say, wasn't particularly taken with their dogma either. But as they say, YMMV...
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templelady
Thank you George I have always wondered why some like you became agnostic and some like me went the other way when answers just weren't forthcoming.
Interesting about the Lutherans that too was the church of my childhhod, and they affected me exactly the same way . (BTW it never ceases to amaze me how many LDS who converted were once Lutheran)
I think is has to do with the presentation..........
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allan w.
I believe God showed my wife and I things that weren't 'spiritually right' in-res. When we made the decision to leave the doors started to open.
As I've said before, seen enough prayers answered and some real miracles too, not that those need to convince me.
Pressures or pleasures are what usually takes people out ( in it's least common denominator ).
Those that believe in him will not be disappointed in their expectations.
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George Aar
Yeah Allan,
I know that's how the believer crowd likes to dress it up - "pleasure or pressure". That way you can conveniently pat yourself on the back for withstanding same (not like those lesser folk who caved), and simultaneously reinforce those same beliefs, despite yet getting any sort of evidence that they're real.
Personally though, when I reverted to my native agnosticism, it was neither a particularly pleasureable or pressured departure. Just a progressive dwindling of any belief in unsubstantiated fables. Life continued on pretty much the same as it had during my "believer" mode. I just didn't have to go to the goddam meetings anymore...
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LG
For many agnostics/atheists, it was less coming to not believe what they formerly had than it was coming to a decision to quit playing make-believe about things they never fully believed, but tried to.
I can't remember ever being fully convinced about any religious belief. Before, during, and after my time with TWI, I wanted and tried to believe various things. I claimed to believe them, acted like I believed them, and pretty well fooled everyone around me into thinking that I did believe them. The one thing I think I never did was to actually believe them. Finally, I decided to quit the pretense, and have been happier ever since.
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allan w.
Thats true to a point George..I can see how twi could and did 'pressure' people out of believing God any longer.
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ChasUFarley
Bramble - Don't apologize for your belief or point of view. This thread isn't to tear anyone down or try to change anyone - just more to get information, really. I respect others beliefs - even if it's not in any diety or higher power at all.
Question for you: Do you feel your life is better without God or just without The Way, religion, etc.?
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George - Interesting posts - I especially like your commment:
Everyday happenings and the odd coincidence took on the attributes of divine intervention. Parking spaces at the front door of the mall, a child recovering from a cold, a promotion at work, and such like all became fodder for the "looky what God did for me" testimonies.
I have never believed that God was into something as mundane as a parking place or whatever. The Word says that our time on this earth is like next to nothing to him - a small thing. I used to think he must get sick of us just asking for crap all the time - why did we deserve it or need it or whatever.... Yes, I still believe in God, and I still pray - but not like I did in TWI (and certainly not for the BOT! LOL!).
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Sudo - You asked some questions that are hard to explain. We've asked them too. Please don't laugh... but we went through this when we lost a cat (yes... a cat.... okay?... yes, you can laugh....) but he was a special cat - just the coolest that ever lived. He was that one in a million pet you get to have in life. He died rather suddenly, but not of an accident or anything. We had prayed for him when he was sick, but it seemed like God didn't hear our prayer - he shouldn't have died. Hubby is still somewhat "mad" at God for that - it rattled him a bit - but he still believes. He just wonders "Why did he have to go? Why couldn't or didn't God heal the cat or save him?" I guess when you get down to it, it's like - where's God's credibility or integrity in this area?
(I'm sure I'll get some hate mail for that one, but oh well....)
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LG -
Question: Why do you lump agnostics in with athiests? Do you consider them to be the same thing?
I found your comments about how you just stopped pretending to believe to be interesting - there was a thread a few years ago about people who faked SIT. It was amazing how many people spoke up on that one - came out of the closet.
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Okay, would an agnostic also belive in the "BIG BANG" theory? Or could an agnostic person believe in Creationism or a form of it? (As in, a higher power pulling everything together....)
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Suda
For those of us who experience a powerful prayer life and see miracles in our lives, it seems unfathomable that others can come to the conclusion that there is no God. My heart goes out to them, because I cannot begin to imagine a life without God. But I guess that is just me wishing that others could experience the same kind of joy I have had in my life. Those people probably wish for me that I could also experience life through their eyes and come to the same conclusions as they do. Guess that what's so great about freedom of will, each gets to decide for him/herself how to direct his/her life. I am glad I have chosen to have God at the center, because He always comes through and helps to turn around times of trouble and turmoil, and make the good times even sweeter.
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Bramble
Bramble - Don't apologize for your belief or point of view.
*I am used to many people being horribly offended that you have chosen a different belief than their own.
This thread isn't to tear anyone down or try to change anyone - just more to get information, really. I respect others beliefs - even if it's not in any diety or higher power at all.
*That is refreshing!
Question for you: Do you feel your life is better without God or just without The Way, religion, etc.?
*I feel my life is far better than it once was. For all my efforts, being the 'good girl' type, Christianity never worked for me as it did for others. I think it was the wrong path for me.
As far as religion... As a small box to live in, full of commands and demands imposed by others, with dire consequences, yes, I have problems with that. Groups tend to leave me pretty cold anyway. Post TWI truama maybe. But as far as meaningful ritual/meditation/prayer/ symbolism that results in inspiration, or comfort or celebration, that makes life richer I think.
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Oakspear
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Suda
This thread has been on my mind all evening. I may be totally wrong, but it seems to me that at least two groups of people emerged from twi. (I'm sure more than two, and my thoughts here may not include many with our shared history in twi.) For some of us, twi gave us something we had been searching for - a way to finally connect with God in a personal, intimate way. We learned to communicate with Him, our prayer life blossomed, and we learned how to recognize the still, quiet voice that is God. We learned how to search the scripture and find answers to questions personal to us - not from a Way magazine article, a SNS tape, a twig fellowship, but by going to God and having Him teach us individually. And we were fortunate to be surrounded by a lot of good people that were also on their personal spiritual quest, and were there for us to share with, both the good times and the bad. We had dear friends that we could turn to in times of trouble, who really cared about us and wanted to help, and who would join together with us in prayer and learning to find the solutions to problems, answers to questions, etc. We saw the signs, miracles, and wonders in our lives that the Bible had told us were available, and we rejoiced that we had finally found the desires of our hearts, a God that loved us individually, and that we knew He was always by our side. That's not to say everything with our lives was peaches and roses, for indeed it was not. I don't think life is ever that way for anyone. We have lots of times of trouble, but it contains enough of the "signs, miracles, and wonders" that we always have hope and the desire to take that next step and keep living life to the fullest no matter what comes our way. (Sometimes God's hand seems to just be sprinkling in our lives, other times His blessings seem to be raining down.) Through our years with twi we built on this foundation, and continued to do so after twi, and still live that way to this day. God is alive to us, and always will be.
Then there seems to be a group that never experienced any spiritual ephipanies, never saw the hand of God at work in their lives. I wonder if
just never happened for them. But since everyone else was always talking about their positive experiences, this group pretended (this may not be the best choice of words) that these things were happening to them, too. Due to the "group think" mentality many experienced, maybe they were fearful of speaking up and voicing a different tune to the rest of the wayfers. And if these thoughts are correct, then when they left twi it would stand to reason that since God, prayer, etc. had never "materialized" for them in twi, why not leave God, prayer, etc. behind also? I can see where becoming agnostic or atheist would make sense for them.Maybe God was present in their lives, and they didn't recognize it. Or maybe He wasn't. I don't pretend to know or understand what happens in another person's life. But hopefully, for them, there was at least a little something good that they brought with them from twi. I think for most everyone, we made dear friends there, and are still making new friends today here at GS with people from our shared twi days.
Anyway, as I said earlier, I may be totally off base here. But these are the thoughts I had this evening while pondering the opening post on this thread from ChasUFarley asking how someone involved with twi later became agnostic. I'd welcome any comments people have on my thoughts. ChasUFarley's question is one I have wondered about often, also.
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LG
I don't normally even categorize myself in this manner, but when I do, I consider myself to be an atheist, rather than an agnostic. George Aar considers himself to be an agnostic, rather than an atheist. But I don't see much, if any, difference between his non-theism and my non-theism, though our attitudes about past adventures in theism are slightly different.
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Suda
Sorry to derail again, but had to respond to Sudo’s comments about the power of prayer. When I was told by a friend about the article (may be the one Sudo has linked to above and I reference excerpts from below) that prayer does not have any effect, my immediate, gut-level response was bull****. Too many times I have seen the powerful, beneficial effects of prayer.
One camp seems to side with this quote (bold supplied by me): “But Paul Kurtz . . . had a simpler response when asked why the study had found no evidence for the power of prayer. "Because there is none," he said. "That would be one answer."”
Another camp sides with these quotes (bold supplied by me):
- “The results of the study provoked discord among doctors and scientists in the US, many of whom questioned the wisdom of subjecting prayer to the conditions of a research project.”
- “Dr Richard Sloan, . . ."The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion."”
- “Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect," he said.”
- “Dr. David Stevens, . . ., told the AP that he believed intercessory prayer could influence people's health, but that scientists were not equipped to measure the phenomenon.”
Also, it’s interesting to note that the prayer participants were told what to pray “The worshippers starting praying for the patients the night before surgery and for the next two weeks, asking God to grant "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications".”
In my opinion, true prayer comes from the heart, it is a one-on-one, personal conversation with God. It is not reading a script from a piece of paper. So, it is questionable whether this scientific experiment even measured true prayer at all. And if it did not, the results are meaningless.
They also note the fact that: “"Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not. God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not," he said.”
Another good conclusion from the study: “As for the new study, he said, "I don’t think... it’s going to stop people praying for the sick."” And why not? Because too many people know how effective the power of prayer is.
As for Sudo’s question, “why would God . . . demand that people beseech Him first before he performed deliverance on His people? Why must He be begged to do what He's said He was going to do anyways? Heal the sick and deliver the infirmed?”
First of all, God does not demand that we pray; it’s our choice whether we do or not. And it is not begging for something He said He was going to do anyway. It’s talking to Him, sharing our thoughts and concerns with Him, and asking for guidance and direction. We can ask for specific outcomes, but that doesn’t mean He’s going to give us exactly what we ask for. At times the sick and infirmed are healed, sometimes they are not. But that’s not our decision, it’s Gods. There are many more variables at play than what we are aware of. But does it hurt to talk with Him, ask Him for deliverance? No. Does it help? I think so. It may not result in the answer we were wanting in that situation, but it does help in building our relationship with Him, every time we go to Him with anything. Since we can’t go visit God, or call him on the phone, the only way we can talk with Him is to pray.
Let’s look at that from another viewpoint. Why do children ask their earthly parents for things? Could be the parents are unaware of something they want or need, and unless the child asks for it, the parent does not know to supply it for the child. Sometimes we know what they need, but wait until they are aware of it enough that they can articulate it themselves, and then ask us for it. Sometimes we know what they need, but they don’t want our help, so we withhold it until they ask for it. And just because they ask for something, does it mean that we automatically give it to them? Of course not. Often as a child when I had a problem, all I wanted was to talk to my parents about it. In our conversations I often came up with the answer to my problem, but would not have without using them as a sounding board. Communication is just as important with our earthly parents as it is with our heavenly Father. And just as it is with our spouses. We may not always agree on everything, but every time we go to each other with our concerns and problems, and talk them out, it brings our hearts closer together, even if the concern or problem is not settled in exactly the way we wanted. Same way with our prayer life with God. It just brings our heart closer to Him when we talk to Him.
Guess there’s no need to go on and on about my beliefs in the power of prayer. People either believe it, or they don’t. But with prayer being in the spiritual realm, I don’t think the effects of it can be measured in physical terms. So I guess I shouldn’t get bothered by someone thinking that an experiment like that should actually prove to anyone who believes in prayer that their beliefs are in error. Guess what got my dander up was what I interpreted as a condescending, bitter tone in the post.
Glad to know that when I want/need prayer or a prayer partner, there are many people who believe in it’s power and are glad to join in with me. And thankful to know that God is there as is my mediator, Jesus Christ, to help me with whatever situation I take to Him.
Suda (stepping down from her soap box, and apologizing again for the derail)
(P.S. Just in case your wondering, I am not here trying to diss my husband. I love him and feel free to respond to his posts, just as I would to any other person’s post.)
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allan w.
I too think twi over-populised ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER YOU ASK IN PRAYER. I believe at times the first part of a prayer request should be for God to let you know if need be whether you should be praying for the desired result or not.
I can't imagine a legion of ministering angels surrounding a sick cat when theres an atheist down the road who is ready to committ his or her life to Christ (if you know what I mean).
And I am certainly not trying to be sarcastic or belligerent here, I love my Siamese cat to bits (and I have had a cat in the past that was 'healed' of a tumour when my bro-in-law prayed 'over' it.
(the only worthwhile thing he ever did for me actually !!)
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ChasUFarley
Allen - Yes, TWI's teaching about how God answers prayer - even about the most trivial things - was set up for big let downs. It always struck me as greedy to hit Father up for everything from a parking place (when you really need to be walking that parkin' lot, baby!) to red drapes. Yeah, God can make things "Eph. 3:20", but I sometimes think that in TWI we were expecting that to be the norm - or perhaps it "just happened" (gasp!).
Part of what has really struck me about TWI, now that I've had a few years to put some distance between IT and ME, is that they didn't really w-o-r-s-h-i-p God, did they? We stood and clapped for Rev. Dropshispants all the time, but had less respect for God than the man on the stage. Meetings were so scripted that no one could act on inspiration - or seldom dared to - God was in His neat little box all the time, wasn't he? We were even told what to pray about: "Krista, please lift the Board of Trustees and the Way Corps...." It was vain repition, week after week.
In starting this thread, part of me is also curious if TWI and the whole experience just didn't kill any spiritual interest or desires that someone may have had - even the most tepid believing could have gone stone cold in that situation - like a woman swearing off men after she's burned in a bad romance....
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allan w.
Chas..I think if anyone has a real love for God, just about nothing can 'rock the boat', the Bible is full of examples of that.
Awesome worship can/should be manifested often by way of music and excitement for God, listen to any of Hillsongs demos etc..
I take my hat off to my wife Selina...when we realized that that was one of the 'key' ingredients missing in our services, she set about setting up a worship band for our church (pretty much from scratch).
God blessed us with some very talented musicians from a cupla other churches.
Music plays a very important part in loving worship, just as love songs do in any relationship.
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Oakspear
One thing that always perplexes me about the so-called "power of prayer" (and for that matter, "alternative healing" and any other claim of the supernatural) is that usually there are built-in weasel words to account for why it doesn't always bring the desired results.
So what exactly are we talking about when we say "prayer works"? If we can't know in advance what prayers are going to elicit the desired results, and "answers to prayer" are entirely dependent on the whim of a god who's not going to tell us what prayers he's going to answer and what ones he's not, then obviously there can be no scientific test that will measure that, because it's not cause-and-effect, it's the volition of a thinking being..."God".The problem I see with that point of view is that many Christians use their experience with "answered prayers" as their personal proof that God as they envision him (or her) exists, yet receive results that statistically are equal to random chance.
Does this mean that there is no God? Does this mean that there are no miracles or answered prayers? In my opinion, no. But there is enough doubt to warrant an agnostic position: "I don't know".
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rhino
I guess that means anyone that has had their boat rocked didn't have a real love for God. Isn't the Bible full of examples of God's people that had their boat rocked?
And music is great in helping one "keep the faith", but as you said, it can do that for a secular relationship as well. If you have a real love of God, do you need music to keep the love alive? Your assertions seem contradictory to me.
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George Aar
Oak,
Indeed, but logic and religion have never been comfortable with each other, IMNSHO.
Despite claims to the contrary, I see religion has being entirely dependant on emotions and feelings. Rational thinking need not apply. Maybe that's why women seem so much more attracted to church-going?
I dunno...
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rhino
All those things I "held in abeyance" surfaced as obvious discrepencies in the Bible, after I left the twi cloud. Of course figures of speech can explain it all I guess, but soon it all becomes figurative.
There is much to be gained from basic Christianity, but I think of my hard core very Baptist uncle when I think of the superior attitude that is one of the less admirable qualities of some Christians. The line of some in this discussion seems so condescending toward any that no longer accept the traditional dogma. Some pity those that are still in the twi box, but also pity those that didn't stay in the Bible box they remained in. Others seem to want to subtly undershepherd the agnostic back into the fold, because they understand it is only the hurt of twi that has led them astray.
I'm in favor of outside the box thinking. That kind of thinking can also contain what is in the box (or boxes) Just my four cents (trying to one up My3Cents) .
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