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  1. Past hour
  2. Ok, I'll bite. Listen, listing the benefits of SIT without establishing that what you're doing is SIT is your business. I could make a similar list of the benefits of meditation. The benefits of free vocalization. The benefits of sitting in a corner repeatedly running your index finger over your lips and saying "budibbidabubbidadibbidabubbida" until just after midnight, and you may actually EXPERIENCE those benefits. But those benefits don't define what you're doing as a manifestation of the spirit. That doesn't mean you're not experiencing the benefits. But name one benefit that is not subjective, that is not a feeling in your gut, a fire in your belly. Name one benefit that cannot be explained in natural terms. Speaking in tongues is, in the Bible, a manifestation of the spirit. The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, ... etc. So if you have the spirit and live by it, you should see the benefits of love, joy, peace, etc. in your life. But it doesn't work in reverse. You can have love, joy, peace, patience, etc... and neither have nor claim to have "spirit." So the benefits do not prove anything. More power to you if you experience them. That's great. But we're just not talking about a "manifestation of the spirit." Speaking in tongues. What IS it? Biblically, what are we talking about? Languages. You speak, and a language comes out. You, the speaker, do not understand the language. But it's a language. If it's not, if what you produce is indistinguishable from what I produce when I fake it, then how is it a manifestation of the spirit? It's not. It's only distinguishable if we produce different outcomes. I produce sounds that may bear some superficial resemblance to language, while you produce French, Guyanese, Swahili, German, Cantonese. Point is, you don't know it when you're speaking it, but it's a language, every time. Now, when you say you speak in tongues, that is a claim you are making. It is different from the claim I am making about what I produced. So how do we tell a fake from the real thing? The benefits? Nope. We've already established that the benefits can be achieved without the act, so the presence of the benefits do not prove... anything. But, if you claim to be doing something I am not, then you should be producing something I am not. And the Bible tells us what that something is: a language. So, what's the language you're producing? Now, you don't want to go in that direction. Fine. Then, I humbly submit, it's on you to stop arguing the point. Really. Just stop. I have not asked a single person for proof who is not engaging me in this discussion. Every single time you insist you're not faking it, I'm going to ask you to identify the language. "But I get spiritual insight into..." What language do you produce? "But I get a sense of inner peace that..." What language do you produce? "But I experience..." What. Language. Do. You. Produce? Because you can get "spiritual insight," inner peace and all those other wonderful qualities without SIT, and I contend you are. But you can't produce a language without SIT. So what language do you produce? "Well, just because you faked it doesn't mean..." No, you're right. It doesn't. But when I was faking it, I would have sworn on a stack of Bibles yay high that I wasn't, that it was real, darnit. That it was the power of God. Because I fooled myself into believing that. And when you fool yourself, it takes an awful lot to admit it. Your unwillingness to admit it is proof of just how much it takes. Why, some of you would rather assassinate my character than admit I've got you pegged. Yes, we can disagree on premises. Sure, the Bible doesn't really mean "languages" when it says "speaking in languages." Tongues of angels is literal. Blah blah blah. Ok. Fine. Whatever you'd like. But in doing so, you concede something significant: You're not producing anything, ANYTHING distinguishable from what I produced when I faked it.
  3. Today
  4. The purpose of Speaking in Tongues is to loosen people minds, or, reduce critical thinking enough that they will accept TWI doctrine and direction. It aids in building non-coherency. It is a sign to the unbeliever, to walk away, now.
  5. Hi everyone, and thanks, higherground30, for reading Undertow and sharing your response here. I want you all to know I often mention this website to "outsiders" when I give talks because I want them to know so many people are still sharing and caring about their TWI experience even after so many years. It affected many of us profoundly. The healing continues ... I am getting emails and notes through my website Contact page from people I knew many years ago who say the book is helping them in one way or other. That is my reward. Cheers to the courageous ones who speak their truth here and everywhere. You inspire me. Yours, Penworks a.k.a. Charlene L. Edge at http://charleneedge.com
  6. The inference is, of course, that you don't have or see any uses for it aside from that. Which (as you already likely know), is not the same "effect" or benefits that I spoke of. However, I've given up trying to steer any further discussion of this towards a consideration of what effect or benefits Paul might have written in scripture about SIT. (None here appear to have any interest in or concern about that, as long as there's no "proof" of a language.) As stated once in a doctrinal thread (over a year ago), I believe it's an issue of hermeneutics. I don't know how to link to these posts over in the doctrinal side, but here they are: And the following post never received a response (that I know of):
  7. Ok, I've cooled down. I will not be baited by trolls, and will not entertain false Christians who misrepresent the faith by feigning interest but really seeking only to malign others. If you think my admission that I lied about SIT means I lack character, no problem. Your refusal to admit you are still lying about it says more to me about yours. I know, you're not lying. And you're going to prove it by identifying your language, right? I thought not. Now sit down and STFU before aatheist humiliates you by showing he knows more about your holy book than you ever will. The truth is, I came to a series of realizations that led me to the "conclusion" that the God hypothesis is false. You may not agree with me, and I respect that. What I don't respect is anyone's need to be a d*ck about it. I was asked a question about my experience and I answered it in good faith, only to have my inquisitor turn my answer around and twist it into something I never said. MY cognitive dissonance became too much for ME to bear. You may not experience the same issue. You may be able to juggle conflicting thoughts in a way I wasn't. And maybe, possibly, some of you, not all, not even most, but some, are just not intelligent enough to know what all these squiggly lines on the computer mean. They're called words. We use them to communicate. You use them to confound. It's no wonder you're like so confused.
  8. Going to debate whether to continue participating in this thread. I did not anticipate the level of disingenuousness that would be directed at me by someone faking sincere interest in my journey. See you guys soon.
  9. With believers like that, who needs atheists. You do a much more effective job leading people from Christ than I ever will.
  10. Your lack of integrity is on full display, pal. How you could straight up lie about stuff you JUST SAID is astonishing. Past... Document your language yet? I thought not. Know why? You're faking it. I know it and you know it too. That's why my existence bothers you SO much it's practically the only reason you keep showing up here. It's ok, though. Honest. When you admit what we all know, that you're faking it, you'll see that it's a relief. Meantime, to call me dishonest is glaring hypocrisy on your part. I'm done with you. Peace out, troll.
  11. What I said about your character was based on a if statement. I said if you really were faking speaking in tongues it shows you have a shady character. But you know you faked it so you know you have a shady character. No honest quality person would do what you said you do then if that wasn't enough then go around and claim everyone else does it too.
  12. If your faith were strong then you would engage me with integrity. You don't. Therefore it's not. If I were you I would go through at least a six month bible study course so that you could at least have a shot at keeping up with me, Mr. Confused.
  13. Raf, I would recommend that you avoid taking Mr Confused's bait.
  14. How am I following you around? You make a lot of assumptions about my faith that you just can't back up. My faith is much stronger than yours ever could've been that I know. You have said and done nothing that would make anyone lose faith. You're an atheist great, you should be proud, but these assumptions you make are based on nothing but what you wish were true.
  15. That comment again demonstrates lack of understanding of the concept of "I statements." I refer you back to me post about 15 minutes ago. I provided a link to reference material. Do you want to continue to be confused?
  16. I'm not the one following you around insulting you, picking fights with you and maligning your character. I think the fact that I am such a threat to you demonstrates how flimsy your faith is. Otherwise you would engage me in an honest discussion instead of being a rude little pest whose fear of being wrong about God is as transparent as the phony babbling that comes out of his mouth when he speaks in "tongues."
  17. Raf assumes a lot about other people based on his personal experience. He says his existence shakes my faith? lol but this board is biased towards supporting their fallen brother so go ahead guys support him.
  18. Allow me... Mr Confused may or may not be intentionally confused on that point... but he demonstrates (either willful or incidental) lack of understanding of "I statements." "It is not selfish to use the word "I." It does not mean that you only care about yourself. Rather, "I" statements are direct, rational, objective and honest. "I" statements show that you are taking responsibility for how you feel and are not blaming someone else for your feelings. "I" statements are factual and non-judgmental.
  19. I tried to politely answer his questions, publicly and privately, only to have him distort what I've been trying to communicate using straw man arguments and condescending, holier than thou pronouncements. Dude, you fake tongues as surely as I did. I'm wrong? Fine. Document the language you are producing or STFU. No excuses. Shove your but but buts up yours. You want me to be impressed with your little magic trick: do something I can't. Yeah, I thought not. You know why I think you're faking it? Because you can't produce a language. Not because I games it. BUT because you know damn well you're faking it too. That's why you feel the obsessive need to disparage my character. Because my existence shakes your faith. Pardon me while I search for my give-a-damn.
  20. Where in that post do you see anything that suggests Raf is trying to tell you what to believe or to do?
  21. This is not an honest dialogue, Mr. Confused. You're misrepresenting me, either maliciously or out of profound ignorance and lack of understanding of basic English. I said nothing you allege, and frankly I'm a little sick of trying to explain simple sht to you in plain English only to have you distort it.
  22. Oh I get it so just like you faked speaking in tongues by default everyone else is faking, and just like you experienced cognitive dissonance about God everyone else does. I love your logic. If it happened to raf it must happen to everyone else. Fair enough. I guess I better become an atheist now since I apparently am experiencing some distressing cognitive dissonance about God. Sorry God.
  23. You cannot pass! I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow. You shall not pass!"
  24. Anchorman Christina Applegate The Sweetest Thing
  25. Yesterday
  26. Benjamin J. Grimm. "The Thing". (AKA, "El Molè.)
  27. OK, then. "A House in the Hills Have Eyes" FREE POST George
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