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I think what believers don't realize about stories like this is how capricious, whimsical and arbitrary it makes God look. "See, he did it for so and so!" And all it makes us realize is the number of times he did NOT see fit to intervene. He has his reasons. Who are we to question? Yeah, we have every right to question. We are the recipients of failed promise after failed promise. He's lucky we think he doesn't exist: it's literally his only redeeming quality. Once you've eliminated his existence from consideration, it's impossible to be angry at him. It's impossible to hate him. Suddenly it's just ... the world looks exactly like you would expect the world to look if there were no God. "I survived a crash that killed three people! Praise God!" Do people who say such things even hear themselves?

Thanks cman and chockfull, WW for the topic thread and opening up so many aspects to it all. PFAL's teaching on this attempts to off an answer to the question of how we came to be, how the earth and the universe we see around us came to be to the end it produced us today, and account for all the fossil records and prehistoric evidence of the past. But what if I take that question away, what if I'm not trying to have a Bible, "faith based" response to evolution or the age of the earth or prehistoric fossils or where this all came from that fits with anything else....? What if I'm just reading the Bible and taking what it says at face value? I have a record that isn't all that hard to understand, with a little study, and on face value. I don't know what it all means, by any means, but I know what I'm reading to a great extent. One thing PFAL did point out of course is that the English translations of all those ancient Hebrew and Greek scrolls and scriptures are subject to interpretation - which is what VPW did with PFAL. There is no effort to translate one language into another that doesn't require interpretation - of words, grammar, history, culture, usage and on and on. VPW posited a process that's fairly conservative, in my opinion but then I wasn't and still aren't trying to attack or defend anything. If it was recipes for Chili it might not be a big deal but sure, anything of such importance is going to be a challenging effort, to say the least. So here we are. I can read and learn today, without the artificial impetus of supporting anything other than a God who creates with purpose, loves like a Father and Who has shared Jesus Christ with me to bring me to the place I need to be in this life to live it as He would have it and I am privileged to work out. But I don't need an answer to evolution - if the Bible is to be taken at "it's Word", at face value, then I believe the best approach is to just read it, study it, do my best to learn it and from it, and let it speak for itself. It doesn't need to "fit like a hand in a glove", it doesn't need to harmonize or organize by my standards or any I put on it. It will, it does, but that was NEVER the intention of the Bible, the "Word of God". Men organize, God creates. Men wear gloves that fit, God doesn't, He is the fit. Men lie, God doesn't. The written Word is a human effort. I do believe I benefit from the efforts of men and women in the past to write and pass on what they lived and learned. I expect a level of integrity to it. I also understand that doing something by "inspiration" of God doesn't guarantee literary perfection, using an imperfect tool to build a perfect outcome. This is "Treasure in earthen vessels" at best, indeed. Any perfection or higher standards of accomplishment I see in the Bible and learn from it have to be the product of God's divine interaction over thousands of years. To be celebrated yes, taught yes. So I have no problem with people putting forth teaching and guidance with intention and passion, myself included. Peace and love and music and stuff!

Isn't sociological narrative both powerful and incredibly tricky? I again rejoice with you for the (mental and emotional) work you do to process what you've been learning. I suspect that processing has shown you that what we learned from Wierwille's "ministry/cult had obvious limitations. Your life experience, notably with your precious grandson showed you some of those limitations. My view is that God (or one's imagination of what God is or may be) are FAR bigger than what twi could imagine or bring into manifestation. I also rejoice in what you've shared about while researching compassion and fear. Though my challenges aren't the same as your challenges, I remain curious and each day wanting to learn and expand what I can know. I have an 11-year old grandson who recently shared with me that he attends school online. And that he doesn't miss in-person school. My heart goes out to him and to my daughter's family even though they are reluctant to share the details of my grandson's challenges. I have, over the course of the last decade, observed my grandson exhibiting intense curiosity about various aspects of life. I have no doubt that my grandson's curiosity is a great gift regardless of the social difficulties he endures. Anyway, I am so thankful for what you've shared with us on GSC, dear Charity.

Yes. Let it be split. Keep it in About the Way and title new thread "LCDIAZ WC 17."

Yeah. That's what I thought. George

Early blood testing showed my grandson was born with a rare gene deletion which caused him to require life-saving surgery when he was a day old and two subsequent major surgeries to completely correct a physical abnormality. We were told that as he grew older, autism may also be a possibility because of this deletion. Fundamentalist beliefs can cause people to refuse medical intervention for themselves or their children because it meant doubting god's ability to heal. I knew the physical reasons for my grandson's health issues but still fell a few times for the doctrine that certain illnesses can be caused by devil spirits. Not anymore now.

I was thinking about something else related to the topic. Do our animals have any spiritual perception? Or, using their own intellect think spiritual things are BS?

I would think no, no, no and no. There's nothing spiritual, no God, no Spirit, no inspiration (in-spirit-action). What is it then? One's own intellect only at work? Luck? Random chance? I don't know.

socks I really enjoyed reading your post and logic and reasoning. I love the conclusion arriving at serendipity as a common goal. Polar opposites to force feeding a new Plaffy down the worlds throat with a trademark.

Yes this is interesting. It is hard to find a middle ground on this topic. It either progresses to a Dan Brown type novel where you have Franciscan monks vs the Illuminati or the rejecting of anything not observable by your 5 senses. One angle to this argument or discussion to consider is how does mankind realize the benefit of superior intellect? How is higher reasoning constructed in the philosophical realms? The Greeks had a high degree of superstition even to the point of not allowing unknown gods introduced at Mars hill. Anyway no answers but interesting discussion.

Yeah there’s probably a better way. Non-verbal autism is well known. It seems that non verbal would make it very strong on that spectrum. This is a known mental challenge that is genetic usually and due to missing chemicals in a body that requires treatment and maintenance. The ignorant have always flocked to superstition to explain away the unexplained. A native witch doctor with completely different beliefs would possibly come up with the same superstitious conclusion.

Yes this is the dilemma it seems. Is there anything spiritual out there or in there that inspires from the outside? Or the inside? There is a real challenge here. Mankind needs a muse. People need heroes to inspire them to greater acts. What is this muse? I view it as a spark of the divine. Where I look for inspiration as there is little of it in the world arising of itself. Only if you condition yourself to look for it. In your scenario you describe what does it matter whether the inspiration is a new view of your personal experience or that same view possibly introduced by a loving Father? People will view the words I wrote here as either inspirational or devil spirit inspired depending on their mindset. Or illogical lol. My inspiration is rejecting the Pharisee approach to controlling things and amassing power and simply looking to the simple truths in writings for inspiration. A favorite inspirational quote for me about fundamentalist mindset is actually from Ralph Waldo Emerson “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”. That inspires me almost as much as Jesus words to those hypocrites.

Hi Rocky, I've been thinking a lot about this line you wrote. At first, it seemed as if you misinterpreted what I had said because I've always had great compassion for my grandson's health challenges. But apart from this assumption about you, there was still something really bothering me, and so I googled "is there fear in compassion" and the website below came up. In it, compassion was defined as having two parts: "Sensitivity to the causes of suffering in one’s self and others” (Part A), combined with the “commitment to try to alleviate and prevent it” (Part B)." It also said: "However, when there are FBRs (Fears, Blocks & Resistances) regarding giving Compassion to Others, this is often due to fears such as: “I will lose something” / “Others will take advantage of me” / “I cannot tolerate others’ distress”. And this was exactly the thing that was bothering me. During those times when I thought my grandson might have had a devil spirit, it was very frightening because I didn't "belieeeve" I could cast one out and in that sense, I could not tolerate (handle, help with) his distress. And that's when, I realize now, that although I was with him physically, mentally I was on some fricking Luciferian planet far removed from the earthly reality that a sudden electric surge had disrupted neurons in his brain causing him to have a seizure. With that kind of delusional mindset, I wasn't as effective with the second part of being compassionate as I could have been. It is very distressing to admit this, but it's important because it's one way that the bible, which teaches there are devil spirits, is harmful. I'm learning that there are many other biblical teachings that cause harm mentally and emotionally. It isn't just the way twi taught "the word," it was parts of the bible itself. I'm reading a good book right now titled "The God argument : the case against religion and for humanism" by A.C. Grayling. One last thing, I want to share about the joy that my grandson has brought to my life. His way of being is unique to him and I have come to value every part of him - his way of finding pleasure in certain things, his desire to interact with us, his growth and development, how he loves to have his long hair brushed when he used to hate it. There is so much more I could share, but most of all, I love his smiles. The other day he was laughing with his mouth closed which I think was a new experience for him by the look on his face. You could tell he was enjoying doing it and the longer he did it, the more my husband and I began to laugh out loud with him. He actually had us in stitches before he was finished. https://mi-psych.com.au/fears-of-compassion/

This feels like a drive by shooting. We have had a number of these. I would suspect it’s a fake account of a leader that is somewhat unhappy with the details we discuss here so need to come here and reprove us with PLAF quotes. They usually last a short period of time until the poster realizes it will take actual logic and discussion to make any headway then they leave.

Fascinating choice, but wrong. If I were to say whom I would expect in this role, it would be Berenger or Keith. Tom Berenger Paul Giamatti Richard Dreyfuss Brian Keith Robin Williams Robert Vaughn Edward G. Robinson Jake Busey Aidan Quinn George

Yes. George

You're not alone WordWolf - chockfull mentioned it a few days ago and penworks also brought it up recently. And you're right - a genuine update on DLM is what I thought I'd find when I opened the thread.

I'm stuck trying to wrap my head around their being a role shared by Robin Williams, Robert Vaughn, Paul Giamatti, and Richard Dreyfus. Richard the Third??????

Ok, this past Thursday, SEVENTEEN YEARS after this thread had DIED DOWN, the new post began, majorly hijacking the thread. (Page two.) People keep checking in, thinking there's some news about the thread topic, and are disappointed to find out this thread now has nothing to do with this thread. Am I the only one who thinks this thread should be split in two, with the old thread intact and a new thread with the new...whatever this is... hosting this completely unrelated discussion?

A not-so-great thought just came to me. The above reference I made about dancing and the manifestation of the spirit had absolutely nothing to do with a certain former twi production. I was thinking purely of the power of music and dance that I felt while watching these two clips.

Catchy tune! Speaking of dancing - wasn't this one of the manifestations of the spirit? I'm sure it was...

I used to disregard your posts about there being myths in the Bible as simply "inconceivable." But then, one crack led to another crack and .... then, there was a letting go. Thank you for your reply.

"Suspicious Minds"

That's the dilemma of the ages for humanity. IDK if. IDK how we could know with any degree of certainty (oops, "certainty" is all about belief or however, Nathan would spell it)