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FYI, I will be computer-free over the weekend. I'm sure you'll all struggle along without me. George

Oops. I got it confused with another thread (name the actor or role). Thanks George. I'll put something else up.

Is this Floyd, WordWolf?

No worries. See what I did there? On another front, I wanted to thank Modgellan for stepping in yesterday. We don't always see eye to eye, and I tried to make it clear that I would accept his review even if I didn't agree with it. One thing he only touched on that I think needs to be said out loud. And I'm putting on the modhat even though I take it very personally. DWBH said a LOT of hateful things about me after he left GSC, and I am not really at liberty to respond because he's no longer on this site to defend himself. I will tell you that he went on a vicious and hostile social media campaign to slander my personal and professional reputation. I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant allegation. OldSkool can come here and defend himself whenever he wants. But I expect him and everyone else to be honest about it. He was always perfectly free to espouse his point of view. That was never the problem. The problem was he had zero tolerance for anyone espousing the opposite point of view. GSC has dozens of threads where Christianity is presumed, the scripture is respected as an authority, and unbelievers have [at best] limited reign to interject. That wasn't good enough for OS. He had to say Christianity is no longer welcome at GSC, which is demonstrably untrue. Then he got mad at me for calling that lie a lie. Too bad. OS was not banned. He left because he wanted to, never recanting the lie that served as his motive. I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant allegation. Finally, poor skyrider. I believe in our years on GSC, we maybe crossed swords a few times. I want to say I challenged an anecdote of his, but I truly don't recall if it was skyrider, Socrates or socks. Whoever it was, it was years ago and never stopped any of them from posting. Maybe they avoided ME. Hard to tell seeing as I don't/didn't interact with any of them often enough to notice. Sorry, but it's true. They say their thing and nine times out of eight I don't get involved. I'm not saying never, but it's rare. In his very last post, May 25, 2023, he praised GSC for shining the light on TWI. He also quoted scripture. It's in the Time To Come Home thread in About the Way. Here's something skyrider wrote in Feb. 2023: THAT is what skyrider thought of GSC. Five months after his final post, Skyrider died. DIED. He didn't "quit posting because Raf made him feel unwelcome." He DIED. And you have the cold-hearted AUDACITY to blame MY conduct as a moderator for the decision of a man to stop posting here after his DEATH?!?! I do not accept the blame for his disappearance from GSC, and while I don't expect one, I believe I am entitled to an apology for this cheap, petty and ignorant absolutely contemptible allegation. The phrase gets used too often to be effective, but if ever there was a time it was appropriate: YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF. Off my soap box. Apologies for digressing from the thread topic.

You know there is a new Disney musical drama film being released in December about the life of Mufasa. I don't know if it will make those of us who were traumatized by his treacherous murder when he was pushed from the cliff and then trampled to death by the stampeding wildebeest as his adorable son who had just been saved from said stampede by his brave father watched him fall...feel any better, but it's worth a try, I guess. And thanks for changing the name!

It is done.

Modcat5 killed Simba's father!!? But why??? On the other hand, considered them said.

No, and no. But "answers" aren't always there for me either. Hi oldiesman, thank you for your answer. The action I was referring in my question though is whether it is okay with God for believers to choose which scriptures to believe and which to discard. Phil 2:12 does not speak to this. It speaks about how obedience is required when working out ones salvation because God will be working in them, at the same time, to be willing to do his good pleasure. Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (The phrase "fear and trembling" is used in two more verses and obedience is mentioned in them as well. They are 2 Cor 7: 15 and Eph 6:5.) Agree, and agree. The first one, I don't know if it's ok with God to believe one "translation" over another; I think it's one of those mysteries but I do believe that God will be judging that from what he sees in our hearts. The second post, agree, eternal life comes with conditions. Thx for the correction.

You're supposed to say the magic words: "Modcat5 killed Mufasa." Then we can change it.

...possible son or daughter. So effing true and so effing bad.

After starting the thread, I wanted to change the title to "letting go" instead of "losing" but wasn't sure if that was possible. I never used to have a problem with Matthew 22:37-39 - what could be wrong where love is concerned. However, the part I used to overlook or ignore before, now stands out - is it love when you are commanded to do so with there being negative consequences when you don't?

I agree, a lot of the phrases used to promote wayism were not main line Christianity "inherently accurate" was never used in the Lutheran or Southern Baptist teachings

I used the word fundamentalist because it means believing the bible is the literal word of God and that it is inherently accurate. This was how vp wanted us to view the bible, but you're right in that he felt free to change it whenever it suited his fancy. I think because of the former, many were gullible to accept the latter.

The first gift from God (and the one all future gifts are dependent on) is salvation, but since there is a requirement attached (that you must make Jesus your Lord), it is not a free gift. If that requirement is not met, there is no salvation and one remains condemned to death/hell. The way God set everything up from the very beginning in Genesis 2 was conditional on obedience and the result of the first sign of non-compliance was death. What parent would set up such a system with their child?

Hi oldiesman, thank you for your answer. The action I was referring in my question though is whether it is okay with God for believers to choose which scriptures to believe and which to discard. Phil 2:12 does not speak to this. It speaks about how obedience is required when working out ones salvation because God will be working in them, at the same time, to be willing to do his good pleasure. Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (The phrase "fear and trembling" is used in two more verses and obedience is mentioned in them as well. They are 2 Cor 7: 15 and Eph 6:5.)

What we need.. heh. At the end of the fiftieth page, a brief summary.. What the hell are we talking about here.. heh Don't you know? Nope. Looks pretty interesting though.. God Bless you dear Friends..

Just saying.. take the abortion issue. The Fundamentalists regard it as a work of the Devil.. TWI- Disagree. It has its uses- especially if a possible son of a man of God is to be illegitimately born. Well.. that was the Old TWI religion. What does the organization think now? That is just... the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

A lot to quote but- I really don't agree that TWI was ANYTHING "fundamental" in the Christian arena. By no means.. Other than a claim of being such. We'd have to go into the abortion issue here.. and politically it is probably forbidden. Plus another half dozen issues.. TWI fundamental.. I don't think so.

The hard part of this- after 14 pages one must spend probably 14 hours reading and researching to contribute what is the word.. meaningfully. I prefer short cuts. Read the first page, the second.. skim through the next to last and last page.. If I could really retire, I would do better here. OK. So.. One does not really lose one's religion. I think that we are supposed to actually improve it. My opinion. So far- I have seen no improvement over Matthew 22:37ff. Just a lot of justification why not to do it- yep.. got our reasons and all. We don't have much time to straighten ourselves out here.. life is but a vapor.

My favorite reference to legitimate Cosmology.. heh

I'm asking sincerely if there were times you struggled with an answer you believed you received after saying this prayer. Have there ever been feelings of guilt, doubt, confusion or fear as a result of listening for answers?

No argument. It's readily apparent that one must desire to accept all that responsibility presumably for a greater purpose. Here is a catholic prayer to the Holy Ghost: 'oh Holy Ghost, beloved of my soul, I adore thee. Enlighten me, guide me, strengthen me, console me. Tell me what I should do. Give me your orders. I promise to submit myself to all that you desire of me, and accept all that you permit to happen to me. Let me only know thy will.'

Charity, these are profound questions but I will try to answer as succinctly as possible. Disagreements welcome: Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?” "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? So far for me, becoming an atheist meant that there's not enough of the bible that: - teaches a god who always loves unconditionally and whose gifts are totally free The gifts themselves are free -- no amount of good works can earn them; but, later must be used, otherwise they basically are forfeited. The fruit from the gifts then would be conditional. Like muscles atrophy if left unused? - is authentic without man-made changes, additions and deletions Agree; no originals exist that we know of? - is not based on ancient myths and philosophers Ancient myths can be true or false -- guess it depends on one's own belief? - does not teach absolute obedience to a god or his son in order to avoid punishment (which is not the same as consequences) and hell Agree in part. Punishment is part of getting back on the right track; like our earthly parents would do. But eternal torture (the worst level in hell) is hard for me to believe that God would allow this. - consistently reliable when it comes to putting my trust in what it says. Agree

The lukewarm bit and needing to be a zealot are also found in what Jesus said in the gospels about following him. Some may say Jesus was speaking in hyperbole but when you put them all together, I think his consistent message of “all or nothing” is quite clear. And while Christians may choose to not take these verses literally, maybe because they require too much of followers, there are many who in their love for God have decided to believe them as they are written. And unfortunately, many narcissists have begun ministries/cults to attract these types of believers and go on to abuse them every which way. Most posters on GSC could say "been there, experienced that." As an atheist, I see religion (by way of the bible) as a means of controlling people. Atheists are often automatically accused of wanting to be one so they can to be free to sin. However, to make that kind of generalization is being very close minded and ignorant of the way they do live their lives. (P.S. Being a Christian does not guarantee any have stopped living in "sin".) ~~~~~~~~~ Here are the verses I mentioned above. In the gospels: - To the young man who had kept the commandments since his youth, Jesus said he also needed to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. - Jesus said, “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life - To a man who asked to bury his father before he committed to following him, Jesus said, “Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.” - To a man who wanted to say good bye to his family before he committed to following him, Jesus said, “No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” - (Think of Abraham being willing to literally sacrifice his son when you read this quote.) Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that takes not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me. He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it. - When being told his mother and brethren wanted to speak with him (seemingly out of concern for him), Jesus said, “Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? [And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said,] “Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” - Before ascending to heaven, Jesus saidto his apostles, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”

Ok, the overwhelming bulk of this thread has been superb discussion about Charity’s topic. Unfortunately there has been a bit of distraction that has gone on and those have devolved into rule violations of personal attacks and name calling. Those MUST stop beginning NOW. I have chosen not to remove or edit those posts, but if more appear after this warning those will be removed in their entirety and the violator may be subject to requiring admin approval for future posts here. Remember no matter what we hold dear in our beliefs, or are affirming, searching for, or developing of those beliefs, we each are free to participate in any topic in any forum at GSC. The only restrictions are to stay within the rules and preferably have something to do with the topic as it will develop. Disagree with another as much as you want, but do not attack each other personally. You do this by expressing your own beliefs or basis, not by impugning another’s character or integrity. Use the “report” button rather than attacking back and forth. The thread is now reopened. -Modgellan