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I was teasing.

Well, did you say it in words that you wrote? Sorry if you don't like the word "implicit."

I get it - "the wages of sin is death" idea from Romans 6 which takes you back to the whole Adam and Eve story in Genesis 3. For those who think this was an allegory or a fictional story posing as history to teach us something (a myth), what part of it teaches how sin really entered the world that we are born with it and therefore deserving of death?

Another POV: On Julia Sweeney's 'Letting Go of God' video, she talked about her brother's death from cancer - how long it took him to die a slow, painful death. Then she shared what someone had said to her about Jesus' suffering and crucifixion in comparison and the comment was "Jesus had a bad weekend." Add to this the idea that he was only dead for 3 days and 3 nights and then God got his son back again. I've never thought of the passive-aggressive point you made above before. John 3:16 also makes this tug-on-the-heartstring point. John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Yet, where are the books? You would think if this was actually true, there would be more historical records other than just the gospels? Yes/no?

Ah, but Yahweh allowed the satan and his princes to do it. It's an idiom. Math, see? Tailoring. Bespoke baby deer skin gloves. If I allow my toddler to walk into the street, if I sit on the curb sipping a beer while watching him get run over by a car, as if watching a football game, who is responsible? What should I say? "That'll teach these people to drive cars on the street." No! I'll tell you what killed that little boy.

The whole scheme is just odd. He pays the price. He is the price. He is the creditor to whom the debt is owed. But Satan gets the blame for killing him. And the princes of this world: demons. They did it. And if they knew the result, they would not have killed him. But that makes no sense at all.

Since I was a child I’ve wondered the same. Yahweh had to pay himself with the life of his only begotten to forgive a debt? He was the creditor, he held the note, but he paid himself? With his only begotten son’s life? Now everyone must feel guilty and submit? What passive aggression! WTF? How does this even make sense? As a father myself, I can think of no deed more wicked than murdering my own son as a means to… accomplish… … ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!

Since everyone dies everyone gets paid lol we earned the right

If that was only implicit then I am not doing my job as a communicator.

Maybe implicit in your post is that it really wasn't God who decided the wage(s) of sin was/is death, but rather it was a whole bunch of societal elders instead. What would or does that possibility say about that bunch of elders if indeed it more fairly and correctly was the old (white?) guys who came up with it?

Why did Jesus have to die? Why is death the wage of sin? God could have made the wage of sin anything he wanted. $3.50. But he made it death. Why? Because to do otherwise would not be just. But God establishes and defines justice, doesn't he? So if he says the wages of sin is a sincere apology and a sternly worded letter, that would be JUST, because he said so. Stoning a man to death for picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week is JUST because God said so. Why shouldn't reducing the wages of sin from death to two bits be just? Ah, because it doesn't EXPLAIN anything. God as the determiner of morality and justice makes ZERO sense, especially when you consider the downright barbaric penalties he levies for insignificant infractions while treating slavery as more acceptable than shellfish and cheeseburgers. "BuT iT was AnOtHeR tImE" say the same people who tell us morality is absolute and subjective morality is wishy washy.

Hi Charity. Reading what you've written throughout made me think of a couple things I'll share, not sure that it's to "help" at all, but just to give my perspective on what you're doing. First of which is, you appear to be having a pretty normal experience, living your life the only way you can, which is from your side of the experience. Your life, your story, your stuff. As far as I know nothing of this life survives the inevitable end of it's duration. The stuff stays, every bit of it. If there is something that persists it will be "you", and I'm convinced that whether immediately, over time or someday later, the best of what I am and have done will continue through eternity and in the form of "me", and the life I will continue to have. So to me, authenticity is very important, being as real and honest with myself as I can be. I would encourage you to continue being that, being you and working through this life. Secondly, to describe my own "beliefs" I do use the bible's history, stories and records as a means to understand life. It's not an entirely "faith based" set of beliefs though. I have a lifetime of events and experiences that have built and formed my view of "God", and life. They've taught me, showed me, provided me, given me a growing sense of who I am, what I'm doing and where I'm going. Of the spiritual aspects, call them the metaphysicals, a long history of "miraculous" events have continued through my years. These have shown me both in the moments and then in retrospect a growing and very wide horizon in which there is a godly presence and what I call "forces of nature" far greater and widespread than I can imagine. I can't pretend to grasp all of it but over time I do have what I consider a way to see life, the world I'm in and what I'm doing in it and that includes things that to most others might seem impossible or the products of a delusional mind. But they're real events, delusional or not. Meaningful to me, if not others and even confusing to those who can vouch for them if not explain them as I would. so - I'm just saying I've learned to accept that my life is - mine. I'll share it and live it with others as best I can but I will do my best to not live by someone else's standards if I don't agree with them. To that degree I pursue choice and freedom of will, to the extent it exists for me. One defining moment of my beliefs came to clarity when it occurred with me and my entire family involved in a miraculous event that unquestionably revealed forces at work we were not in control of and not at the center of, but that were specifically directed to our benefit. During that set of events, each one of us have a different memory of what happened about the same thing - each person's involvement was unique and their own and as a result had different meaning but very clearly all experienced the same thing. Later when that sunk in I realized something so obvious yet powerful that it was overwhelming, life changing. And so it's gone over the years and why I say I know my "faith" is my own. I trust in things that others might not, but based on my life's learning they're true and reliable. This includes a belief in the life's purposes of the Jesus Christ of biblical record and the idea of a redemptive purpose to life. Which is a long way of saying, I've learned that if I try to be as honest and thoughtful as I can be I seem to be getting through it all at my own pace and the pace I need to. I'm not a warm and fuzzy foo-foo-your-truth-my-truth kind of thinker, I do believe that there is a reality of which we are part of that is providing the structure and functionality that allows us to consciously go forward in time and that can be learned and understood to some degree. The task is to find the sources and instruction to teach me about that so that I can live the life I'm here to live - which is what I'm doing, amongst other things but I think that's the priority that informs everything I do, trite or serious or whatever it might be that I'm fuzzing around with that at the moment. : ) I wish you the best, you deserve it. We all do, and why not? We didn't get to choose when we were born or who would bring us forth or even when....yet here we are. That in itself is astounding.

Mike McCann Dr. David Marrow Nels Coxman

What surprises me the most about becoming an atheist is how insane biblical apologists now sound when giving answers to sincere questions about God and what the Bible says. I'll come back with examples later. Then again, some of you might have examples of your owns.

Is it wrong to compare the actions of an almighty heavenly father to how we as human parents would behave towards our own children? I think doing so is a reasonable thing to do, but others might say it's like comparing apples to oranges for god's ways are higher than ours. If god's ways can only be understood spiritually, perhaps those who want to believe they're spiritual will not want to question god's parenting skills so they rationalize them instead. Similarly, questioning god's wisdom in how he shows "unconditional love" to his children only makes us fools according to Paul. _____________________ Should we not judge a parent as being inhumane when they commands us to love them or face punishment, who sets us up to fail, who says we were born corrupt and unholy and therefore deserving of their wrath and who will meet our needs only when they decide we have enough trust in them?

Correct. With more power hitters and smaller ballparks, inside-the-park home runs are not as common as they once were. (Some balls hit in Forbes Field are STILL rolling...); but they do happen. The Reds have two of them already this year. Peralta's HR came when the outfielder crashed through the fence into the bullpen. His time around the bases was slower than most regular HR trots. Obviously, rounding the bases because of an error (or more) doesn't count (often called a "Little League HR"); but misplayed balls or balls lost in the sun (or, in one case, fog) do count. There was even one walk-off, inside-the-park grand slam. Roberto Clemente in 1956 against the Cubs at (of course) Fornes Field. Human, you're up George

Some might think I'm not on a journey any longer because I've already made up my mind that god does not exist. Sometimes, I ask myself if I've come to that conclusion, why do I continue to read and consider scripture? Do I have a confirmation bias now when I do so? In your first post on this thread, you cautioned me against allowing my faith to be undermined by whatever challenges my children or grandchildren are facing and you shared your reason for saying so. Although I did mention in my OP post that the doctrine of the rapture and great tribulation was another reason for questioning my faith, being hurt (and angry) at a god for not answering my prayers concerning my grandson's health did make me think I might be coming across to others as a spoiled brat who's having a temper tantrum or saying 'I hate you" to a parent because they didn't get what they want. I wondered a bit if I was myself. So self-doubt is an uncomfortable part in the process of moving away from one's faith. I know you've experienced this yourself, so I appreciate your post above.

"Before the beginning....." (starts at 8:05)

Final thought for now: It takes a LOT to process a loss of faith. There is a period of intense emotion akin to mourning. Not the loss of a relationship with a nonexistent god, but a recognition that so much time and energy has been wasted in his service that could certainly have benefitted real people instead. If I took the money I gave the church and sent it instead to cancer or als research or autism or clean water or even just a gotdang food bank, I would have actually helped more people. It is exhausting to come to terms with what just happened in our lives. Charity came here to share that journey. The disrespect shown in return, the accusations of arrogance, the prissy, privileged, entitled ANGER at her gall to format responses in a way that made you unhappy... You wanna talk about not being important enough to DEMAND any such thing!? You wanna talk about who is acting like a f'ing judgmental Pharisee? Charity will respond however she chooses to respond, and if you don't like the method, tough s*it. How DARE you act as if this creates a problem for YOU, after the contempt you've shown for Charity's journey and pain? Ok I need to step away before I lose it.

I watched Emilio Bonifacio on TV on opening day 2009. Two run, inside the park home run. Blew our minds. I can't think of anything else he did on opening day, so I'm going to guess you are right

Hit an inside the park homerun?

Biblical cosmology. Apparently I made all this up. So when Paul says he was caught up to the third heaven, he's not traveling forward in time. He's traveling upwards in space. That was the cosmology he would have known: a spherical earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens. He went to the third one. But that doesn't come from the dozens of scholars who've written peer-reviewed articles and books on the subject. Nope. Comes from me. I made it all up to frustrate chockfull on a message board frequented by tens of people on a good weekend. You gotta admit, faking 50-someodd names for a bibliography and then actually going out and ghostwriting books without taking credit for it might seem like overkill, but you have no idea how important it is for me to win a debate on the Internet. FFS.

I got two lines from this movie. I'm just a fan of the movie but that doesn't mean everyone else is, so the two lines. "Are you classified as human"?........"Negative, I am a meat popsicle". "Aziz lightttttt!!!! Much better. Thank you Aziz".

Next song. "Moving into the universe And she's drifting this way and that. Not touching the ground at all And she's up above the yard."

Sorry, yes, of course that was correct