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Is it Grumpy Old Men?

If you look at life from more than the about 100 years we live on the planet, things start making more sense. There is no apocalypse, that is fantasy, not reality. There is an end to your world here in the physical, that is why the spiritual is more important. Cause the new heavens and earth are real and now. Just because one is blind to it does not mean it does not exist.

A point I'd like to add here: our choices don't control everything that happens; i.e. things happen also by providence, or accident; whatever way one choose to look at those two.

The way you are inserting comments into my quote makes it impossible to answer any of your questions inline and I’m not cutting and pasting every one of them from all over everywhere. If I’m not answering all your questions that is why. So much of this is Christianity 101. God as Creator was not a dictator so he did not interfere in His creation every microsecond but set up systems where people could choose to talk to Him or not. Those who do He helps but not in a direct interference way for the most part. Certain circumstances dictate miracles such as those we read of Jesus on earth. Mankind has arrived at whatever state he is in through his own choice. Yes this is allegorical as today people also arrive at their own state through their own choice. What other parts of the Bible are allegorical? A lot of them. Even VPs teaching highlights verses with “figures of speech” as different from a direct reading. Remember the whole Athletes of the Spirit debacle with TWI taking figurative language to a new low? With respect to the devil spirit comments you are choosing to be confused as you don’t believe they exist. From your mouth. Jesus healed children by removing a spiritual cause of their illness. At least that is what seems pretty clear in those verses. Your grandson has a known mental condition that has negative and positive ramifications. This is not a devil spirit. This is not a spiritual cause. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. So now for my questions. What was Jesus doing to those children if not healing them? If he wasn’t removing a spiritual cause then the only other logical conclusion would involve some form of mental child abuse. Is that what you believe happened? I am not gaslighting anything. I am commenting on words proceeding from your own mouth. If it’s not gas coming out of your mouth how can it be lit on fire?

I think there are enough positive verses about God and Jesus in the bible that people can accept them both on those terms alone. The bible says God is love and also that there is no fear in love. Therefore, there should be no fear in loving God and living a Christian life. If that is as far as people want to go, there doesn't seem to be any harm in doing so - there are only benefits, one of which is freedom from needing to have an obedient-slave-to-god mentality. I don't know exactly where salvation comes into play here though. I started this thread in this forum because of its name. I see the whole of scripture shows that Yahweh is not a good god. Any supposed benefits attributed to him come at a very high price, and that is why I now speak out when people say he is good. When you live with an abusive, angry, authoritative and vengeful partner, it's not wise to live in denial or say you have to take the bad along with the good. You leave that partner and look for one that is safer and healthier. One does not need this god of the bible to live a loving, meaningful and peaceful life.

"Yet today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of this Earth"

Not getting anything from these lyrics waysider. Maybe post some more please.

Oh it's me huh? Okay. Let's see... Natural Born Killers The Relic Point Break (1991)

Yeah, see. That kinda leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We were either following the teachings of a man with devil spirits or he was wrong about what he taught. That means he could have been wrong about...well ... anything.

A little music trivia then, if you're a fan of this group it should be easy. Which ~Eagles~ album featured the song "New Kid in Town" and in which order was the song on the album song list?

I view Gen 2 and 3 as allegorical illustrating freedom of choice between good and evil that is available to every living soul. You most certainly are interpreting it in a fundamentalist sense from my perspective. Faith means different things in the Bible I think most count 5 usages. The idea of devil spirits is upsetting. Having spiritual causes of illnesses is upsetting. Mental illnesses which can look like devil spirits are upsetting. Being sick is upsetting. Cancer and chemo is upsetting. VP said cancer was a devil spirit. Then he died of it. What .... doctrine are you talking about? Those records in the gospels are Jesus healing a couple kids by removing a spiritual cause of the illness? So healing the kids was ....? Dang that is real cynical. Not a view I want to share at all.

1) I did not give an interpretation of Gen 2 & 3. I referred to them exactly how they were written. Would you, as a loving father, simply let your perfect child who has no knowledge of evil nor of the existence of a cunning and evil arch-enemy of yours deal with such a creature on her own, knowing that she would be deceived by his craftiness? Would you not correct her before she went to your other child and offered him the forbidden fruit you had placed in their home? Would the matter of testing their obedience to you supersede the you knew would happen after they ate the fruit? The story makes no sense as I think you know, but millions of people still believe it is how sin entered the world. So now, what is the real reason for the "wickedness" in mankind and the authority and power of the devil and his spirit followers and the need for a messiah as described in the rest of the bible? 2) Concerning the rest of your sentence: I was not stuck on vpw's law of believing. I was stuck on trusting God. There is a difference - the former is a false doctrine and the latter is scriptural knowing that the word "faith," used over 200 times in the bible, means trust. The devil spirits I connected with my grandson were not because of some idiot who was blabbing about them in a medical situation. Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting. I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child. That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures. Mark 9:17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb (mute, speechless) spirit; 18And wheresoever he takes him, he tears (seizes) him: and he foams, and gnashes with his teeth, and pines (withers, stiffens) away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. Luke 9:38And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. 39And, lo, a spirit takes him, and he suddenly cries out; and it tears (convulses) him that he foams again, and bruising him hardly departs from him. Remember, I had not began deconverting during this time. And even now, just a month after realizing there are no such things as devil spirits, I still cried while reading these verses before copying them into this post. This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful.

No. Morse Code usually uses SOS. I'll just flip the cards here. French for "Help Me!" is "M'aidez!" pronounced "mayday" and usually spelled as such. FREE POST (Of course, I "borrowed" Human's spot, so he should go if he has one. George

With Samuel Morse, Morse Code?

I don't see you putting me down in your posts. I think the anchor that helps me sleep now is being thankful for what I have, especially my family.

you hang on to these church teachings as if they are the truth, are they? or are they the anchor that keeps you asleep, sleeping comfortably in your mind-set here is another "If you believe it will work out, you'll see opportunities. If you believe it won't, you will see obstacles." ~Wayne Dyer… and not to put you down in any way, it's just the way it is

For a while, I had been reading and hearing from different sources the shocking belief that Paul's epistles were heretical because they contradicted what Jesus taught in the gospel. I thought this was because these people did not understand the doctrine of the mystery which was hidden in God until it was revealed to Paul and since Jesus was not God, he could not have taught it before his death. Therefore Paul, by revelation from Jesus Christ, was able to teach who we are and what we have in Christ because the resurrection and ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God had since occurred. "Truth" is all so subjective.

yes we are stewards, as Jesus taught, as Paul taught stewards of the pearl of great price

Thanks cman for the post. I don't believe that God is always showing everything always. That there are so many denominations teaching totally different things on many different topics is a sign of mass confusion when it comes to understanding God. As for the flesh (meaning the sin nature in everyone) being weak and fearful, I guess it's true if one believes it exists.

You make a good point. There are words of wisdom in the bible amongst the many harmful concepts it proclaims. Some who have deconverted continue to read the bible from a fictional viewpoint and look for what lessons might be hidden in the myths. I'm not at that place though. It's a beautiful quote you shared. Biblically, it would be refuted by Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:" (See also Rom 3:10-18 and Gal 5:19-21) It's a terrible thing to teach children how wicked they are because of having a sin nature. There seems to be little or nothing written in the bible about the goodness of people apart from God being in their lives. We know this is not true! Are humans perfect - no. But it is not because of an "original sin" that was passed on to us because of a mythical Adam and Eve story in Genesis. I think Dyer's quote about the soul directing you in the right direction is wise when you believe in an inherit worth in all people and a desire to see good manifested in your life.

Paul wrote to those who have been awakened from sleep, born again, yes, but what does that mean=awake, the spirit uncoiled from inside. He constantly talked about the spirit inside, as well as in the other men who wrote letters, like John and Peter and James.

These are the things Jesus taught. It, the spirit, is what he was talking about...clearly. Instead of the epistles to be read all the time, it is better to read the gospels and proverbs, psalms....to see what they were seeing....