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Much of this parallels what happened in The Way. Substitute MOG for "chosen one". Substitute Motorcoach for Alamo's "special" bedroom arrangement. Substitute Harley's for"ponies in the backyard". Substitute babes in the word for "baby Christians". Note that followers were expected to live on minimal subsistence while the leader lived like a king. Note that they had their own special language and were expected to maintain an attitude of submission. And so on. 1.Holding people against their will Most of this was of a psychological nature. When you are stuck in the middle of nowhere with no money or transportation, it can feel like you are being held. Add that to the "hedge of protection" concept that basically states you can never really leave "the household" without leaving yourself open to an attack from the boogie man. And, as was pointed out, there is a documented incident on the front page of this very website, that details the house arrest, at gun point, of a former Way leader. (Through the fog) 2. Withholding food. Yes. In fellow laborers, we had a food co-op. If you didn't make your weekly payment, you had to sit at meals with the group but were not allowed to eat. It was not permitted for anyone to offer you part of their share or offer to make a payment on your behalf. (We found ways around this one.) 3. Beaten with boards I never personally witnessed anyone being physically beaten. Many of our posters who spent their childhood in The Way, though, have posted first hand accounts of severe corporal punishment for misbehavior and non-compliance. One poster has stated that she and her husband were admonished, by leadership, to discipline their child with a 2x4. Armed guards walked the various Way properties and functions. One poster here has stated it was part of his responsibility, as a HQ staffer, to maintain the evesdropping "bugs" in the BRC. So I would have to conclude that MANY similar things happened in The Way.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533871,00.html This is an AP story.

Holding people against their will. Withholding food as punishment. Beating people with boards.

B - are your wayfer folks willing to die so you can have your inheritance at a reasonably young age, providing they've set aside any money.

One of the things that exasperated me when in TWI was the writing style. Everything was written as though it were an epistle. I got to the point where I couldn't ever finish a letter or an article because of the wordiness and expounding on minutiae. Most things took a translator to get to the point. Was this by design?

Why. . . . it is almost as if they have a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words. :) Could be. . . . concerning the idea of financial partnership. . . . . . . in their greed they could exploit one with false words. . . . just a thought.

The odd thing is that if what they have is so unbelievably wonderful as they tell you, you would think that they would want to share it with the rest of the world and correct our misperceptions instead of running and hiding, or just never coming out of the wood work in the first place. Isnt there something about "hiding your light under a bushel". I have sat with Bishops and Archbishops, Higher ups of various denominations and 95% of the ones that I have talked to are straightforward and honest even in regards to the obvious problems that they face. In other words even if I dont agree with them on certain matters at the least they deal with things in an honorable way as part of their 'witness', most of them I have genuine appreciation for....and although I would never use a phrase like "man of God" to describe anyone, some I admire and might consider it if I had no other words available to me. I really dont understand the "we have some great secret that you dont" mentality, or the John Lynn type driveby "buy my book" postings of a few years ago either. Christianity especially the organized kind is hard enough to get my head around under the best of circumstances let alone someone slamming me with "buy my stuff" "Bumper Sticker Christianity" replete with false bravado, secrecy, and an attitude does nothing for me, it holds about as much spiritual appeal as Billy Mays hawking OxyClean or Vince selling ShamWows (absolutely amazing!!! act now!! bring your credit card!!) on 3 AM TV. I'll give him a chance by fercryinoutloud how the heck does he expect to convince anyone of anything with his current stance. He seems like a good kid, Working all these hours I hope that he is saving up for either his years of therapy or his years of alcoholism when it finally dawns on him how they took advantage of him and his naivete. O---and have the damn courage to speak up Saint Vic Jr, Im talking to you, paint your own damn house you lazy weasel

Dooj - lots of churches do not teach the concept of accountability - whether the sin was committed before the "come to Jesus" moment or after. This whole clean slate thing is wonderful when you can't go to the person and at least try to fix things. It's a whole other thing when it is used to excuse bad behavior. The idea that Christians should forgive other Christians for doing bad things because they are Christians is too simplistic, IMO.

I totally agree. That's the reason why I don't go for the "I would never fall for a cult" bs.

Very few people are immune to the tug. Very few join an organization with the idea that using and abusing is part of the dynamic. Some people have no idea what that looks like, while some people have a very different idea of what that looks like. Now you know what it looks like to you. Do you still walk into those situations? Even if you do walk in, do you stay longer than you know you should? If you are able to stay away or walk away, then your time in TWI taught you what you needed to know and do to keep yourself safe.

Well now I am really confused. . . someone comes here and has an over the top initial post. . . is called on it and what?? We say it is okay because he is young? People called him on it. . . . and all "kidding" aside. . . that seems the proper response. This is a discussion forum. . . no? Things are discussed? Differing opinions and viewpoints? What is it exactly we discuss? A cult that has hurt many people. . . whose cult? VP's cult and now his family seems intent on carrying on the legacy. Offshoot is a really nice word, but an offshoot of what. . . a nice little bible study? Not in my world. That family is poison. I am sorry they had VP for a dad and grandfather, but they can walk away from this garbage just like the rest of us. No one is forcing them to try and bring back the glory days. Do you know what finally penetrated my pea size brain? The truth of what it was really all about. The other side of the story. If he doesn't know like we didn't at that age. . . be a stand up person and tell him. Or we can tell him it is great he is on this path with this group and more power to him. Yeah. . . hang with the Wierwilles. . . where else can you get the "word".

And then, of course, there's always that distinct possibility that all religions, no matter the brand, are Bullchit (a VERY distinct possibility if you ask me). And all your pious, belligerent pontificating is for nought anyway. Just why is it that The Bible MUST be the fount of all Truth anyway? What evidence do we have that shows Judeo-Christianity to have any more credibility than any other garden-variety superstition? One thing the Bible IS good for, I'd admit, is promoting blind bigotry and prejudice - as evidenced by your posts. Even that gets boring after a short while though...

Over the years the structure of CES has changed, but initially it was a lot like TWI, which involved paying for tapes/CDs and video. When they instituted the "partnership" program, audio teachings and the bimonthly newsletter came along with the partnership. Pretty much everything was sent out first class mail. Even mass mailings were sent straight first class, which is very costly. Now that the Sower's print version is printed on slick paper and is in full color, it costs a lot more money to produce. There is a certain economies of scale, but that break point is in the hundreds. I had always advocated that the teachings and what became the sower should be freely available, and the easiest and cheapest way to distribute was in electronic format. Continue to sell the books and whatever on media (if that's the preferred delivery method by the buyer), but pass those costs on to those buyers. I argued that once you have the production equipment bought and paid for, there is only the cost of maintenance or replacement. If you have the cost of media, duplication, packaging, postage, and mailing materials on top of that, it's hard to control costs. Particularly since they weren't taking advantage of bulk rates. Electronic media has none of those costs past the cost and maintenance of the production equipment. In my mind, it was a no-brainer to move to electronic distribution, and advocated it as early as 2002. Once they were able to move past the TWI model of materials distribution (which revolves around the notion that charging people for teachings makes them more receptive), and found they had the ability to post videos and audio on free sites, only an idiot wouldn't take advantage of that. But they really had to get past the money = appreciation dynamic. The Biblical Unitarian site, which was mine, showed them that making everything freely available would generate more interest. Jeff was really the one who caught on and asked me to set up the TorT site. Both of the sites are dated (visually), and I wouldn't be using the format at all, but the reasons behind that are based on antiquated notions about how search engine optimization works. I think that STF has it wrong about church and that is because it still clings to too many things TWI. TWI followed a "tree" structure, while STF is basically a weed patch. There is no central core of corporate worship from which small groups emerge. STF produces teachings and independent groups affiliate. So to answer your question, I'm not particularly jubilant. They could have been doing this years ago, and they haven't even made a scratch in uncovering their potential (assuming that God wants them to be more visible).

I dunno.. maybe you need another "gig"..

Proverbs 24:10 is appropriate here..

yep. Life is always "easier" when everybody simply agrees with you..

Dang, I can't believe you are playing with us like this.

Tzaia - don't you think that perhaps CES/STF are just avoiding making reference to a work that twi plagiarized and put out? I keep saying that when you tout yourself as a "Biblical research ...." ministry, you set yourself up to always come up with some new thing. So... if they don't have anything new to say - well, then their lips are sealed.

Argh. What difference does it make? The guy died possessed of a devil spirit (according to his own theology) and finally got outed for being a first class dirt-bag. Whether he meets with his eternal fate after the dirt nap of his theology or if he's already in the thick of it (if he was wrong about his theology), I'm sure he's with that group Jesus said would prefer they had never known him.

hmmm

I really thought about sending a copy of that to one of my former english professors, and see what he had to say about it, but I didn't want to see him have a heart attack.. "death by composition"..

Yep.. but this last "great" epistle of sorts.. my opinion.. it was like someone took the broken ramblings of a drunken sailor, regarding lost love or something, and just ran it through the spell checker.. as far as grammar and spelling.. it passes the microsoft first hurdle..

But the vast majority passes microsoft word spell checker. heh.. I think that merely shows what a NOVICE jl is.. even after all these years..

Yeah, but it was around 73 AD after the fall of Jerusalem. Been there a couple of times. It is a marvel of engineering from how to get up there to how they brought water in from the west (as it's right next to the Dead Sea). The Jewish people in Israel believe that the suicide was heroic because the people avoided capture, torture, and rape. It is believed that 1 or 2 people might have been alive.

maybe you could define your terms.. what do you mean "edification"? "truth" even as you define it may not be technically "edifying"..

I think at the time the times were good, either because you were happy, or because you'd better be happy. Now that people have had the time to look back (more or less objectively) the perception of the times have changed. I don't recall people whining about their awful cars, or lack of funds, or terrible living conditions. Things were what they were and besides whining only reminded a person of his/her lack of believing. I think it's difficult to reconcile the terrible cost that many paid. For me it helps to remember that most were trying to do nothing more than to be right with God the best way they knew how. Some people choose to cloud every memory with the idea that someone knew most of them were being deceived all along. I choose not to give anyone that much power over my memories. I think it's important to remember than everyone here is free to think, remember, and believe any way they want, which is a lot better than where we came from.

I believe TWI's stance on things is unnecessarily divisive, and especially its stance on the trinity. I personally have no problem with how TWI teaches Jesus is not God. Who they teach Jesus is is woefully inadequate. He basically takes a place behind "the word" and behind "the prevailing truth" and the "man of God." I don't believe God exists as a triune being, either. But I really don't care anymore. I can sit and listen to almost anything now without getting riled up because I don't agree. I can't tell you how freeing that is.

Studied healing? Studied healing?! Since healing is a manifestation of the hs, not sure how you can "study" it. You would think that since we all saw how leading someone to SIT didn't really work, it would be a given that studying how to manifest healing has about the same effect. They may have the gift, but I seriously doubt if it was something they learned.

Brainfixed, Even when I was active in TWI, it was not a religious institution that I could wholesale suggest to anyone as being right for them. My belief then was that it wasn't for everyone. Now I think it's really not for anyone. It is an organization that takes a lot; promises a lot; and gives little or nothing in return in the here and now. Everything that TWI does now is contingent on "The Hope" of the coming kingdom being as TWI states it will be. Based on that premise, people are reluctant to leave the "protection" of the "household" when the household actually does nothing to protect you, nor is there any real guarantee that it will in the coming kingdom. TWI doesn't just ask a lot of people; it demands it under the threat of diminished rewards in the "coming age". My question was who was TWI to determine my rewards as I stand before the judgment seat? On more than one occasion I had to ask someone if they were going to stand in my place at the judgment seat, and since I knew the answer to that question, I could tell them that I was willing to live with my decision since I alone would have to answer for that decision. While I certainly wasn't spared any of the looks, grumbles, or mutterings, along with a few observations regarding my spirituality or level of possession, I left TWI largely intact. I did spend a few years after that on the fringe of a splinter group, but I eventually found that a complete break from the belief system was what I needed to do. Sure there were some "good" times, but I would never recommend TWI as an organization that provides much in the way of good.

Does that really matter? What does matter is that TWI never has held the keys to any of those things. You could have found any of those things by being involved in any number of religious organizations, or not.

Which he didn't. This was yet another example of him confusing the relatively simple. Do any of you feel like you have a greater understanding of scripture because you know that flatbread resembles flat stones and that your father wouldn't give you a stone if he knew you wanted bread? Seriously. Once I had actually traveled to the middle east, it was very obvious the guy had no idea what he was talking about when it came to using "orientalisms" to explain biblical context. A humanities class provides more insight. Once I started studying religion in general and early Christianity in particular, it was glaring what the guy either didn't know, didn't understand, or simply ignored. I don't know. What I do know is that once I took an academic approach, it was really apparent that he was out there.

If you have to ask - no. If someone "suggests" that's it's time - no. It really is ok to hold on to the good and I wish that I hadn't been so quick to dispose of my past before I had time to sift through it and make sense of it.

I think one has to avoid confusing the comfort of familiarity with being real (authentic).

He's saying that sometimes your "best" involves doing nothing at all.

Which is the reason why they needed to be emptied and wiped down. The dust from those bags was frightful and would have been better (from an allergan standpoint) if the rooms had been left unvacuumed.

Based on the number of people who approached us to sponsor them in the WC, I was wondering how someone got "revelation" to do that? I know that it doesn't hurt to ask for money. I'm not opposed to supporting "relief missions." I simply didn't agree with WC training goals (at least from what I could gather), or the idea that it was my job to provide financial assistance to achieve these "goals". We were fair - we never supported anyone. As I explained to someone one time, the decision to go WoW or WC is yours, and while I understand that TWI wants you to find people to financially support you while you are doing this, I don't agree with that practice. I don't feel any more obligated to financially support your career move than you feel inclined to provide me financial support while I stay home with my children.

Apparently I was never around when the string and tape measure came out. I never heard of chair stringing until I came here. If I had seen it, I probably would have had to stifle a few giggles, as people who need that sort of thing to line things up probably don't have a good eye for that kind of thing. Anyone who does have that kind of eye needs to be using that gift on something more important than chair alignment. Perhaps it was all the focus on the trivial that kept people from seeing the big picture.

The thought of death and afterlife wasn't much of a motivator for me while in TWI. It's even less now. My upbringing was centered around the spiritual world, namely the mystical, so I found TWI's take on the spirit realm interesting. Where I probably diverged from TWI thinking was that I believed GOD provided the hedge of protection, not adherence to TWI's rules.

MG ignored my friend request on Facebook. I guess I'm totally out of the loop now. :(

Exactly. The offering was "unique" through the compensator, who was VPW and his teaching.

Honestly, why do any of you give them any level of power over your life? What difference does it make what they say or think? Really? Do you not get that it's this caring about what others think that caused more than a few of you to do things that you aren't particularly proud of? If you really don't like it, put them on your ignore list.

A look at "Christmas Past."

What's interesting to me.. this has been going on for TWO YEARS almost.. and the division between the board members obviously predates this for a long time.. so much for the concept of "agree with thine adversary quickly.." jl probably would argue that that's not appropriate.. wrong "administration" or something.. but REALLY.. they are supposedly "salted" "believers", "brethren".. it would seem to me they could ask.. "what would make this right, brother".. 501C rules aside.. I've heard people say there's ALWAYS some way to make it work out on paper, legally. if ALL it is is money.. what's the big deal? I think this situation is indicative of how fleshly and carnal they have become. even old testament days, one couldn't put a bond slave out empty handed. That is effectively what the board did, did it not, or am I not understanding this situation correctly?

Out of curiosity I looked at the local county court records and there is still a lawsuit between the MG-KAG and JAL. The case appears open concerning the G's and JB as well.

I don't know if it's so much about whether he doesn't have a case.. maybe it's more a matter of whether any potential reward will actually be "collectable".. What I wonder.. are these guys still at each other's throats? What they need.. is a third party unaffected by their particular brand of nuttiness to sit as an arbitrator.. maybe it's too late for that.. who knows.. for a small handful of pecans, I'd consider..

Sooo.. it's been two months since the last post. Anything new? or are the "wheels of justice" merely grinding finely?

I don't know the particulars. I never read the complaint. I would imagine that JB put the information into CC's hands and that's where he got nailed. There was really no other way for her to get that information, unless it was MJ. What you people are probably not aware of is that both JB and MJ went to work for the company that managed the office computers. Those guys had full access to the systems after they left. They would have had full access to the email system, to the servers, and to all of the backups. When MG told me he kept the IT company - knowing full well that JB and MJ was working for it- that's when I knew he was a fool and had no idea what he was up against.

They never really clashed. Mark generally deferred to Dan. It was Dan's idea to groom JB for the head of the business side of the home office, which I greatly disagreed with because of JB's lack of soft skills. He really doesn't work well with women. He does best in a command and control environment. That's not my take. I believe KAG has been made a major villain this when every last one of them, including EL has some fault in this. First of all, JAL's parents did NOT want him to marry her because of her track record with men and her relationship with the G's as they held the G's personally responsible for John's stepping down. The marriage got off to a really bad start because of that. My understanding is that EL has been able to make peace with at least part of the family, but it took her aligning herself against the G's and against JAL for that to happen. She may have become disillusioned against the G's as I did when MG failed to stand with me when it came to JB's verbal abuse towards me. I don't know. I do know that her time in the front office did not last long. No one went into great detail about what was causing the rift between EL and JAL. He said the problems started about 4 months into the marriage. Honestly I like MG, but I lost respect for him for allowing that abuse to take place. JB did not like EL working in the home office and he did just about everything he possibly could to make her dislike the job, including declaring she was possessed. EL was told from the very beginning that JAL's 'gift' was teaching and that involved a lot of travel. You could tell that she was smiling through clenched teeth about the prospect of him traveling. He also spends enormous amounts of time on the phone and I think she had a problem with that, too. My understanding is that she got pretty doggoned mad and JAL, being the master of confrontation left her feeling unheard and frustrated. KAG is a bit wacky and she was more involved in the day-to-day of the home office than the rest of the wives. She probably got the perception that it was OK to be involved since she was given office space. It's kind of amazing how being given an office, desk, phone, and computer will make you think you ought to be doing something. It's not like she had any computer skills, or could package items, or do mailings. Her "job" was to offer opinions, which is what she did. It wasn't until 2004 that it was deemed permissible to allow someone else to use that space and that someone was me, when I moved the server upstairs, and then DG. She was included in many of the decisions because of her being a "prophetess" and that was welcomed input. The only person there that resented her "intrusion" was JB. It sounds like at least Dan and Mark have come to some sort of an agreement. MG's beef with DG was his unwillingness/inability to deal with JB. JB's antics had hit really close to home. He indicated to me that he was going to become far more involved in KAG's work. She's a talented painter who could use a manager. He is an artist as well. I think he should finish his degree at Earlham - Quakers are pretty lenient theologically. He is a pastor and it would be a shame for him to not be a pastor. He sure does, which is the reason why I walked away with no regrets about my behavior, and no intention of further involvement. We had 'partnered' with CES since the beginning, but truthfully the drama gets to be a bit much. I experienced tremendous relief once I was no longer around them. In fact, I had NO idea that any of this was going on until MG called me the day before the annual meeting last year asking for my assistance in the form of a letter on his behalf - as if that would make a difference. I was pretty blunt in telling him it was more than what he was ever willing to do for me, but I did it, even though that was the first time he made any effort to talk to me since I was "let go." I can say that doctrine doesn't matter to me nearly as much as the 'loving one another' aspect of fellowship. I see a HUGE disconnect between what is taught at CES and what is lived. I say let them implode on one another.

I wonder, did M. and K. G. have a lawyer file this with the court, or is this a "do it yourself" kind of litigation?