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Here's a poem written by Mary Oliver. Truly, we live with mysteries too marvelous to be understood. How grass can be nourishing in the mouths of the lambs. How rivers and stones are forever in allegiance with gravity while we ourselves dream of rising. How two hands touch and the bonds will never be broken. How people come, from delight or the scars of damage, to the comfort of a poem. Let me keep my distance, always, from those who think they have the answers. Let me keep company always with those who say “Look!” and laugh in astonishment, and bow their heads. ~Mary Oliver Was Wierwille's claim that "he knew that he knew that he knew" a declaration of hubris or simply arrogance? What does Proverbs 16:18 tell us? I seem to remember him teaching about THE GREAT mystery. And then telling us what he believed it was. I tend to side, these days, with Mary Oliver on the subject of mysteries and doubt.

I do not doubt you think that. I used to believe that too. However, actions do speak louder than words. From my 12 years of involvement with TWI and from the preponderance of anecdotal evidence from many others I know beyond a reasonable doubt that wierwille did not like to be challenged. The excessive admiration for wierwille may be partly due to a self-imposed paradigm shift that cult-followers experience – most TWI-followers tend to view wierwille in a very positive light. In Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice, the character Jessica said love is blind. That seems to be a timeless truth indeed – when we love someone, we tend to overlook their faults. I never took notice of wierwille’s self-promotion. I believed him when he spoke of his early struggle as a simple clergyman frustrated with the lack of answers and power in his life until God spoke to him. That is the unvarnished truth of why I was attracted to wierwille and his ministry. It was the promise of getting answers to the big questions in life and experience whatever it was to tap into the power of God. For whatever reasons or delusions that drove wierwille, I think he framed himself as being honest and humble. But besides whatever reasons anyone may have had to hold wierwille in such high regard – there is another more alarming explanation for wierwille possessing such favor - he demanded the utmost respect from his followers! That is something common in harmful and controlling cult-leaders. They REQUIRE excessive admiration...Consider some excerpts from a Joe Navarro article. Joe Navarro, a former FBI Counterintelligence Agent and the author of What Every BODY is Saying: An Ex-FBI Agent's Guide to Speed-Reading People wrote an August 2012 Psychology Today article Psychology Today: Dangerous Cult Leaders, Clues to what makes for a pathological cult leader Navarro said the two questions he gets asked most frequently by students of criminology and psychology are: How do you know when a cult leader is bad, evil, or toxic? and when is a cult leader pathological or a danger to others? Navarro said those are valid questions in view of the historical record of suffering and hurt caused by various cult leaders around the world: “From my studies of cults and cult leaders during my time in the FBI, I learned early on that there are some things to look for that, at a minimum, say "caution, this individual is dangerous, and in all likelihood will cause harm to others. Having studied at length the life, teachings, and behaviors of Jim Jones (Jonestown Guyana), David Koresh (Branch Davidians), Stewart Traill (The Church of Bible Understanding), Charles Manson, Shoko Asahara (Aum Shinrikyo), Joseph Di Mambro (The Order of the Solar Temple a.k.a. Ordre du Temple Solaire), Marshall Heff Applewhit (Heaven’s Gate), Bhagwan Rajneesh (Rajneesh Movement), and Warren Jeffs (polygamist leader), I can say that what stands out about these individuals is that they were or are all pathologically narcissistic. They all have or had an overabundant belief that they were special, that they and they alone had the answers to problems, and that they had to be revered. They demanded perfect loyalty from followers, they overvalued themselves and devalued those around them, they were intolerant of criticism, and above all they did not like being questioned or challenged. And yet, in spite of these less than charming traits, they had no trouble attracting those who were willing to overlook these features… …These personality traits stand out as the first warning to those who would associate with them, but there are many others. Here is a collection of traits of cult leaders that give us hints as to their psychopathology. This list is not all-inclusive nor is it the final word on the subject; it is merely my personal collection based on studies and interviews that I conducted in my previous career. If you know of a cult leader who has many of these traits there is a high probability that they are hurting those around them emotionally, psychologically, physically, spiritually, or financially. And of course, this does not take into account the hurt that their loved ones will also experience. Here are the typical traits of the pathological cult leader (from Dangerous Personalities) that you should watch for: 1. He has a grandiose idea of who he is and what he can achieve. 2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, or brilliance. 3. Demands blind, unquestioned obedience. 4. Requires excessive admiration from followers and outsiders. 5. Has a sense of entitlement—expecting to be treated as special at all times. 6. Is exploitative of others by asking for their money or that of relatives, putting others at financial risk. 7. Is arrogant and haughty in his behavior or attitude. 8. Has an exaggerated sense of power (entitlement) that allows him to bend rules and break laws. 9. Takes sexual advantage of members of his sect or cult. 10. Sex is a requirement with adults and sub adults as part of a ritual or rite. 11. Is hypersensitive to how he is seen or perceived by others. 12. Publicly devalues others as being inferior, incapable, or not worthy. 13. Makes members confess their sins or faults, publicly subjecting them to ridicule or humiliation while revealing exploitable weaknesses of the penitent. 14. Has ignored the needs of others, including: biological, physical, emotional, and financial needs. 15. Is frequently boastful of accomplishments. 16. Needs to be the center of attention and does things to distract others to ensure that he or she is being noticed, e.g., by arriving late, using exotic clothing, overdramatic speech, or by making theatrical entrances. 17. Has insisted on always having the best of anything (house, car, jewelry, clothes) even when others are relegated to lesser facilities, amenities, or clothing. 18. Doesn’t seem to listen well to needs of others; communication is usually one-way, in the form of dictates. 19. Haughtiness, grandiosity, and the need to be controlling is part of his personality. 20. Behaves as though people are objects to be used, manipulated or exploited for personal gain. 21. When criticized he tends to lash out not just with anger but with rage. 22. Anyone who criticizes or questions him is called an “enemy.” 23. Refers to non-members or non-believers as “the enemy.” 24. Acts imperious at times, not wishing to know what others think or desire. 25. Believes himself to be omnipotent. 26. Has “magical” answers or solutions to problems. 27. Is superficially charming. 28. Habitually puts down others as inferior; only he is superior. 29. Has a certain coldness or aloofness about him that makes others worry about who this person really is and or whether they really know him. 30. Is deeply offended when there are perceived signs of boredom, being ignored or of being slighted. 31. Treats others with contempt and arrogance. 32. Is constantly assessing people to determine those who are a threat or those who revere him. 33. The word “I” dominates his conversations. He is oblivious to how often he references himself. 34. Hates to be embarrassed or fail publicly; when he does he acts out with rage. 35. Doesn’t seem to feel guilty for anything he has done wrong nor does he apologize for his actions. 36. Believes he possesses the answers and solutions to world problems. 37. Believes himself to be a deity or a chosen representative of a deity. 38. "Rigid," "unbending," or "insensitive" describes how this person thinks. 39. Tries to control others in what they do, read, view, or think. 40. Has isolated members of his sect from contact with family or the outside world. 41. Monitors and/or restricts contact with family or outsiders. 42. Works the least but demands the most. 43. Has stated that he is “destined for greatness” or that he will be “martyred.” 44. Seems to be highly dependent on tribute and adoration and will often fish for compliments. 45. Uses enforcers or sycophants to ensure compliance from members or believers. 46. Sees self as “unstoppable” and perhaps has even said so. 47. Conceals background or family, which would disclose how plain or ordinary he is. 48. Doesn’t think there is anything wrong with himself and in fact sees himself as perfection or “blessed.” 49. Has taken away followers' freedom to leave, to travel, to pursue life and liberty. 50. Has isolated the group physically (moved to a remote area) so as to not be observed. this is the list that I use to survey the cult leader for dangerous traits. Of course the only way to know anything for sure is to observe and validate, but these characteristics can go a long way to help with that. And as I have said, there are other things to look for and there may be other lists, but this is the one that I found most useful from studying these groups and talking to former members of cults. When a cult or organizational leader has a preponderance of these traits then we can anticipate that at some point those who associate with him will likely suffer physically, emotionally, psychologically, or financially. If these traits sound familiar to leaders, groups, sects, or organizations known to you, then expect those who associate with them to live in despair and to suffer, even if they don’t know yet that they will.” End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ As I look over the above list of 50 typical traits of the pathological cult leader – it’s sad and unsettling to realize that most of them are a spot-on reflection of wierwille. Another treacherous aspect of pseudo-Christian groups like The Way International is how their trap is already primed for unsuspecting victims who are much more likely to be attracted to traditional belief systems like Christianity – something many people are familiar with – compared to something like Scientology. That leads me to think that to understand the power of harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cults we should look more at their methods than their seemingly innocuous statements of belief. The trick is to see how these harmful and controlling cults put their “theories” into practice – by twisting Scripture…misinterpreting Scripture…misapplying Scripture to facilitate…to justify…to excuse their bad behavior and exploit others...and most of all wierwille presented teachings in such a way that it's intimidating to followers who might otherwise question something - but remain quiet fearing the consequences of what might be akin to challenging Moses giving the 10 commandments. “…VP actually wanted other people to do research even if it proved him wrong. Could be like a campaign slogan; could be true…” Nope – I don’t think so. As a side note, I’m not really impressed with Walter C.. If you haven’t read it already you should check out Penworks’ book Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International and you’ll find out how Walter caved in to the pressure wierwille employed for Walter to mistranslate a text to suit wierwille’s agenda…Your friend Mike is super busy cleaning windows and trolling posting on Grease Spot that it’s taking him forever to get through it – perhaps you’ll finish it before him - - but it’s an easy read showing the inner workings of TWI and you might find some stuff that resonates with your own experiences.

That could prove difficult....

Succinctly stated, chockfull. And, THAT should have been an early indication that we were in a cult. The community churches that I've attended offer support and assistance in a variety of ways, not restrictions. And, most all of these churches show transparency of money received and money spent. Pastors and elders visit nursing homes and hospitals to offer prayer and support to the elderly.... while often, youth pastors encourage mission outreach and youth activities. When was the last time twi's board of directors personally sent out a "Get Well" card to someone in twi that was going thru surgery? Or, heavens-to-Betsy.... made a hospital visit to someone dying of cancer? When one thinks about this, there is an abysmal gap between how cults function and how proper churches operate in the community. One takes, one gives. One spouts policy, the other exhibits love. One constricts, the other breathes life.

Thanks Nathan - I went back and corrected misspelling his name

Give me a little time and I could come up with some correlation Learned behavior is probably the easiest to find similarities with this thread. As the thread title states, religion demands acceptance of the unprovable. I think that’s true but oddly enough some folks are drawn to religion anyway – regardless of the demands – and that’s something I find fascinating. Why? I’m a sucker for You Tube ‘tutorials’ on cats and dogs. I remember one video on 8 or 9 things people don’t know about cats – that said cats meow to communicate something to people – and that it’s not usually used for cat-to-cat communication. Don’t know if there’s anything to that – but if it’s learned behavior it makes sense to me. We got our feral cat from a local animal shelter – he was about 8 months old. They told us he was a little shy being a feral cat but the person who brought the cat in remarked how friendly he was in getting handouts from the neighborhood. So, the cat discovered certain actions (like meowing) got him food – and now I’m on board with his learned behavior – so I’m trained too – whatever – maybe we both get something out of it – I earn my cat’s trust to be the best cat valet I can be. Maybe some things about religion are learned behavior. What do religious folks get out of it? In The Case for God by Karen Armstrong she says in most premodern cultures there were two recognized ways of thinking, speaking and acquiring knowledge – the ancient Greeks called them mythos and logos. Both were essential and considered complementary rather than in conflict with each other. Each had its own sphere of competence. Logos – reason – was the pragmatic mode of thought that empowered folks to function effectively in the world – forward-looking - always on the lookout to make efficient weapons, tools, better controls, invent and improve stuff. Logos was essential for the survival of our species. But it had its limitations – it couldn’t alleviate human grief or find meaning and purpose in struggles. That’s where mythos come in. The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell came up recently on another thread. Armstrong made some references to The Power of Myth too. She said currently we live in a society of scientific logos – and in popular jargon a myth is something that is not true. But in the past myth was not a self-indulgent fantasy – and has been called a primitive form of psychology – designed to help people negotiate the obscure regions of the psyche – to enter the labyrinth of their own minds and fight personal demons. Religion is a practical discipline that teaches us to discover new capacities of the mind. Myth would not be effective if people simply “believed” in it. It was essentially a program of action. The myth of the hero, for example, which takes the same form in nearly all cultural traditions, taught people how to unlock their own heroic potential. Later the stories of historical figures such as the Buddha, Jesus, or Muhammad were made to conform to this paradigm so that followers could imitate them in the same way…Religion, therefore, was not primarily something that people thought but something they did. End of ‘excerpts’ from The Case for God ~ ~ ~ ~ As Christopher Hitchens said: “What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.” I like that. I found another cool quote by him on Christopher Hitchens Quotes (Author of God Is Not Great) (goodreads.com) : “Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely soley upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open-mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.” ― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything I no longer have a fundamentalists view of the Bible. I don’t look at the Bible as having a mathematical exactness and scientific precision. And personally, I find nothing in it that infuriates my mind. I try to understand it from its ancient cultural basis – folks trying to deal with the inexplicable. I like the freedom to investigate stuff for myself and consider other viewpoints. I may never get definitive answers on anything – but I keep at it anyway – because I keep figuring out there’s more questions to ask - and sometimes wind up reframing the problem (whatever the particular issue is that I'm exploring). Now going full circle – I found another Hitchens quote that ties it all together with what I’ve been talking about – religion, cats and dogs: “Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are gods.” ― Christopher Hitchens, The Portable Atheist: Essential Readings for the Nonbeliever This is freakin’ amazing – there’s at least two distinct religions practiced in our home – our dog thinks me and my wife are gods. And my wife and I practice the ancient Egyptian religion of worshipping our cat. think I'll check out some of Hitchens stuff.