Rocky

WordWolf, that's a fair and reasonable characterization of the situation.

It's NOT about me at all. So stop trying to shame me into doing YOUR dirty work. If you want to take Mark F down. Do so. But don't bug me to do it for you. Pfffttt. YOU are NOT the boss of me. LOL.

It's not ANY about me... or it wouldn't be if you hadn't tried to get me to do YOUR dirty work regarding Mark F.

14 Hours ago, DWBH said,

I'm doing no such thing. And even if I was, you really don't have the right to diagnose me. Because the last time you saw me was five years ago. Stop making this about me.

Thanks, but that wasn't the point.

I (we) no longer BELONG either to or with The Way International. This is not the concept of being a "member of the organization." We know now that was reserved for a very small group and revolved around who got to make the decisions about how the ABS money was spent. We know now that was as far from a democratic or egalitarian notion as any organization could get. Instead, this is about the fact that many of us, in bunches of thread topics, have cited a sense of BELONGING as a big reason for why we associated with the people and fellowships of The Way. We've documented extensively the dark side of the group. Many of us acknowledged the/a good side too. A few of us have been unashamed of subsequent associations with other church or religious groups that have, in more ways than one given some meaning to our lives. Some of us found meaningful non-religious social organizations too. Twinky comes to mind quickly because of how she has described her comfort with her church group and the service she and her friends provide to people in various kinds of need where they live and serve. However it has played out, for many of us social groups -- not necessarily cultic in nature -- have made a huge difference in the meaning we've been able to embrace in our lives. Belonging is sometimes referred to as a sense of community. Inclusion rather than exclusion or isolation. (Even introverts like me need a social network) More importantly, leaving a group like TWI, even though we are fed up when we leave, is inherently fraught with emotional stress or sometimes trauma. I left twi more than three decades ago. To a significant degree, I've found my people. But this is a topic that can resonate with people throughout their entire lives. Anyway, all of this is to preface mentioning a book I'm reading now that might interest some others in our GSC community. There's a link in the previous sentence. But you might be able to find the book in your local public library. Obviously, I recommend it highly. Ms. Agrawal describes her journey of discovery and community and spells out how we ALL need community. I love the expression in the subtitle above "Find YOUR People." I'd be more than happy to discuss the subject further with anyone who cares to comment on this thread. Your stories of connecting, disconnecting, isolation and community are welcome.

DWBH is just grinding an ax.

Nonsense. You're in no position to psychoanalyze or to shame me into doing your bidding.

That's a cop-out. AND projection. You've been on my case about it for sometime, trying to tell me what to do. I accept none of your direction related to the matter.

Not interested in your bait. You want to take him down? Figure it out and do it. But by all means, include all of the accomplices, not just the one with whom you happen to have an ax to grind.

Do you? Or are you responsible to specify that a document provided in a pdf file without any verification that it's been filed in court might become a lawsuit but isn't necessarily... and that even if one is filed, it may or may not be verbatim as contained in the unverified pdf file?

Is it really JUST "telling the other side of the story" to not tell the whole story by singling out one particular defendant? AND the linked pdf file does NOT provide any verification that the item has even been filed in court. Hence, this particular one is NOT necessarily a public record.

After all, the could just as easily have rewound the tape and played it over and over. And for those of you who never heard the word "retconned" (like me), Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short,[1][2] is a literary device in which established facts in a fictional work are adjusted, ignored, or contradicted by a subsequently published work which breaks continuity with the former.

If you want to further spell out who is responsible, you might contact the office of Patrick Noaker. You can ask for a case number, whether there has been a jury trial or any settlement talks, whether the complaint as posted at the Spokane Spokesman is active or has been amended at all. With a case number, inquiries can be made of the Pine County District Court. Then again, because Raf covers courts in South Florida, he probably has additional insight.

I do know that the person you singled out is not even close to the only defendant. That could raise concerns related to the explanation Modcat5 gave you about citing a person's name here. Further, not knowing the status of the lawsuit raises other issues. In this posted pdf of the complaint, there is not even any indication it was ever filed (no court stamp, no time/date). It, very likely, was filed. Or a document similar to it may have been filed. It is not uncommon for civil lawsuits to be amended to add to the complaint, add defendants, or remove them. My point is that you seem not to know what any of those (possible or prospective) defendants have been found responsible for by a trier of fact or of law. We DO know that Victor Barnard HAS been found guilty in related criminal proceedings. Everyone else, we don't know whether any or all of them have been determined to be factual by the Pine County District Court in Minnesota. All we know is that for most of the defendants, as far as we know, they are simply allegations. We can and do know, by virtue of their first hand telling of their own stories AND by virtue of Barnard having been declared guilty, that two specific young women were harmed. We do not know if anyone other than Barnard has been lawfully determined to be responsible. I would caution you against spelling out any more specific allegations until you find out the disposition or current status of any related legal action.

That's a civil, not criminal, complaint. Do you have any knowledge of the status of the lawsuit?

Why could it not be both?

I'll echo Waysider's comment but also add that nobody here can authoritatively label anyone's first person account false or exaggerated. Btw, Wbw, have you ever heard the expression, "where there's smoke, there's fire?"

I'd say that's the least likely explanation.

They never received it = they didn't grasp it. Idiomatically speaking, it went in one ear and out the other. Changing culture is a very difficult task. Getting someone to accept a directive or suggestion that runs counter to what they've been conditioned to accept is, for the vast majority of people, extremely difficult. The person is conditioned to resist OR possibly can't even understand what s/he hears OR has a very high level of risk aversion... OR...

THAT is the essence of leaving TWI. I don't think the R&R guys and gals are generally prepared to do that.

These threads with TLC seem to have a LOT in common with when Mike engaged in his incessant worship of Wierwille. I'm not suggesting TLC is Mike. The voice is definitely different. But there are parallels in that there was (is) no end to the circular nature of the bickering.