Rocky

Wow! That too is very profound.

There's deep metaphor in those sentences. Indeed, I've come to appreciate the importance of story to humanity. Now I'm reading George Lakoff and Mark Johnson's Metaphors We Live By. In their book, they argue metaphor is not simply or only a verbal mechanism for communicating certain concepts. Rather, metaphor is HOW we think. Our capacities to touch, hold and handle the fires of shame determine... That's a powerful statement in itself. I appreciate HOW you think. Our capacities to touch, hold and handle the fires of shame... that, even though it's not the entirety of your sentence or your comment, is in itself a very powerful statement. It puts into a context HOW you look at the world. I think your last two sentences (which I quoted above) are quite profound. It shows how you think about shame. Its a metaphorical thought process. It awes me to consider the profundity.

First published 53 years ago. Nouthetic counseling has been criticized as narrowly conceived, with a confrontational focus upon sin and behavior, which fails to deal adequately with emotion, grief, and suffering, and which lacks understanding of complex human motivations. Yeah, this definitely qualifies under a rubric of not necessarily biblical. Expanding on the notion of being narrowly conceived, with a confrontational focus on sin... it also fits in the framework of Christianity and other religions setting people against one another.

There's a few salient points in WWs comment. It's also likely there are many former wayfers who have horror stories about how they treated their children. This may be my life's biggest regret, and certainly my biggest regret about involvement with the fundamentalist cult we've known as The Way International "biblical research, teaching, fellowship and horrendously BAD life example ministry." It's also most reasonable to surmise Victor (who really wasn't, in the entire scheme of things a victor) had absolutely NO CLUE about anyone except himself. Isn't that the definition of sociopath or psychopath?

Yeah, sometimes the learning is especially emotionally painful.

That's fair insight. Even without first hand knowledge of victim experiences/stories, The issue of sexual abuse in any social situation with such disparate power differential as twi (and many other religious groups, political, or economically obvious situations) makes it abundantly obvious it has been pervasive. Thanks for that comment.

https://www.amazon.com/Marxist-Minstrels-Handbook-Communist-Subversion/dp/B0006CPX8Q

https://www.amazon.com/Hunt-Close-Realistic-Close-Working-Conditions/dp/1558212647/ Currently going for ~ $59 on amazon, used

Thank you. That is, indeed, what I was trying to figure out. IOW, Wierwille had OTHER things on his personal agenda to push other than his (private) interpretation of the KJV (or any other translation/transliteration/version) of the bible. In terms of classes, it might be reasonable to infer he taught some of that stuff in the Advanced Class on PFLAP so he could label it all spiritual wickedness without having to show any actual bible citations. Now, I wonder if any of that stuff is going around in current twi cult circles.

Were those (or any of those) people wayfers or former twi? I appreciate the feedback. Thanks.

Yes.

Thanks. I'm curious about the cultural impact of the three highlighted books, if anyone has any info or anecdotes. Again, I'm NOT inviting political discussion. Just remembrances or documents. Thanks. Btw, I have -- in my Kindle library -- a copy of Dale Carnegie's book. Of course, it was included because (I figure) it's still a major salesmanship book. As well as having in my Kindle library a copy of a collection of Harvard Classics. Various versions of these anthologies can be obtained on Amazon for between $.99 and $4.99. I suspect they were included for general studies purposes.

I thought GerryMander(ing) was a more politically oriented practice. j/k https://www.amazon.com/Arguments-Elimination-Television-Jerry-Mander-ebook/dp/B00DTTEDPC/ I remember the book but never read it. Today, the fearful have shifted to concern over the societal impact of the internet. As for television, it seems self evident to me that regardless of the sociological impact on humanity, television remained viable because it was a major tool for bringing widespread awareness of things to buy. IOW, mass marketing tool.

How did this book figure into Victor's affinities related to (against) Jews?

Yeah, that was a good one. I read it too. In my mind, it was biblically related. Did you ever read the Babylon Mystery Religion? or the Thirteenth Tribe? or anything like that?

Disclaimer: I'm not inviting discussion of approval or content of those books, just wondering about the degree to which anybody may have taken those sources seriously and which books they may have been. IOW, NOT discussion of politics. Just whether non-biblical material was taught or discussed in (twig) fellowships. Thanks

I just now posted the following to the WaPo story comments: It is entirely right and reasonable for Bickle to confess his sins to the congregation. But it seems most of those involved at this point may be hoping the confession will serve as a turning point to facilitate this particular cult can move on as if nothing happened in the first place. I disagree with that perspective. The conduct Bickle got away with for years (decades?) is nothing more and nothing less than an indicator that the CULTure of that organization was and has been sick from the get go. It's time (for those involved) to shut it ALL down completely. THEN, if those people want to build something to continue whatever may have been good in the group, they need to do some deep and significant soul-searching to figure out how to build a congregation that can keep its followers safe from predation and predators LIKE (and if they do NOT change) Bickle. And there WILL be more if they ignore the danger and move on as is.

That was my impression when I first read the WaPo story last night, too. Frankly, I think it might take time for those IN the IHOPKC cult to realize they need to let the group die a (merciful, at least to the victims) death. Well, at least it doesn't appear they "get it" yet.

I don't generally embrace religious viewpoints (including Wierwille's, despite his claim his is not religious) but the influence of music as a powerful art and human expression of spirituality captures me (and I respond emotionally every time) every year at this time when I hear the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah. here's the Hallelujah Chorus portion of Handel's Messiah.

Agency, according to Dr Brown, is "I believe I can do it!"

If only... one day... er, one month at a time. I wish it was that simple.

Bickle and IHOP(KC) have become national news. The link is to a Washington Post news story and because I subscribe, the story is NOT behind a paywall. IOW, it's a gift article available to anyone who wants to read it. Mike Bickle, the founder of an international around-the-clock prayer movement and charismatic minister, apologized Tuesday for past misconduct that caused “pain, confusion, and division in the body of Christ.” “With a very heavy heart I want to express how deeply grieved I am that my past sins have led to so much pain, confusion, and division in the body of Christ in this hour,” Bickle said in an online statement. “I sadly admit that 20+ years ago, I sinned by engaging in inappropriate behavior — my moral failures were real,” he wrote. In late October, former leaders of the Kansas City-based International House of Prayer publicly accused Bickle of clergy sexual misconduct, based on allegations from several women about misconduct that allegedly went on for decades. “The credibility of these allegations is not based on any one experience or any one victim, but on the collective and corroborating testimony of the experiences of several victims,” the former leaders said in their initial allegations. (more)

I disagree. We all die, ultimately. In the interim, there's hope for meaningful life. Please don't derail this thread.

IOW, to people (or a people) of, in, and/or from cultures substantively different from what we are familiar with today. Hence, it's extremely unlikely we can construct, in our own minds, a framework for which to grasp "the original intended meanings." That is, even if and when we give credence to the notion of God, a/the creator.