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I'm sorry to see this discussion turn negative.. It probably would be better those who posts are negative just stop posting those things that get into these nitt picking, tit for tat squabbles. And stick to discussing with those who are willing to discuss. Anything else is probably not the best for peace, love, and all that our Lord died for. Why I even continued reading, I don't know.. Maybe TWI installed in me a love for being tortured. Sick, eh? I'll admit I must be! Da#n this mortal body.. Both sides seem to have information, but all these squabbles are really killing the point, and even the profit of this discussion. Can we at least get back to that? Just to add my "hopefully" 2 positive cents, Is it possible chockfull that when it says "no man understandeth" that just like all could be all with distinction or all without exception, that the same could hold true for no one, no man or what ever the correct phrase might be.. So that is it possible the verse could be referring to no one "within a specific group" (like the assembled fellowship), as opposed to no man ever, anywhere, at no time, in the history of this world? Only a guess, but I think that is what both WordWolf and Raf have mentioned but maybe not as clear? I dunno.

You know, people disagree on the identity of God and Christ, and each side belittles the other in particular times and places. No one on either side has been subjected the the barrage of "prove its" and the less-than-expert dissection of supporting material than I have endured on this thread. I'm not whining. Just stating a fact. I can take it just fine, thankyouverymuch. And the namecalling, which I have given just as much as I've gotten, long, long ago passed the point of ridiculousness. I stopped the namecalling, but I did not stop the passion of my conviction. If you want to disagree with my position, let's go for it. I can go another 70 pages if it's an honest discussion. But today has seen nothing constructive. One juvenile taunt after another, and my call for civility was not only ignored, but mocked. The incivility was expanded beyond its original expression. [EDITED to remove reference to a deleted post]. I am sorry my position offends some people. I am. But what I'm sorry about is the level to which we were deceived by a power hungry cult eager to bore its way into the deepest, most personal aspects of our prayer lives. I am sorry that I was ever party to such a tremendous deception, one that I KNEW was a lie, but buried because I wanted to fit in. [EDITED to remove reference to a deleted post]. As for those outside TWI, what can I say? Itching ears eager to believe a lie during a time in our history when such lies were commonplace, when the only question was "which god is producing this phenomenon?" and not "is this phenomenon what it is claimed to be?" So they spoke in tongues and, convinced it was a language, went abroad to become missionaries. They got the hard lesson that the gobbledy-gook they were spewing forth was not what they claimed it to be. In this, God was not glorified. But instead of correcting themselves for speaking presumptuously, for pretending the babbling of man to be an expression of the power of God, they simply redefined the power of God to make it less awesome, less real. Now God promises to give you something indistinguishable from someone faking it. That's not what the Bible promises. But it's what we delivered. This isn't about believing God or believing scientists. It's about believing God and not believing those who pretend to bring forth His power but fail to produce the results God promises, and then mock us when we call them on the LIE. If you're not producing what He said you'll produce, then you're not doing what He wants. In this, God is not glorified. Why do I think it's going to be a language. Please. Because it's speaking in tongues, which are languages? Because every Biblical reference to that word, when it's not talking about the physical organ, is talking about human languages spoken by other people on earth? There is honest inquiry, and there is defensive posturing. We've seen both on this thread. Only one deserves serious consideration.