sirguessalot

regarding pentecost (and later with peter and the greek) ...what if language translation was not the issue? seems to me a lot of different kinds of jewish pilgrims and a lot of different kinds of non-jewish pilgrims from all over the world already speaking many of the same languages heard words they all already knew quite well being used in ways they did not know at all but somehow reawakened the original fundamental wisdom behind the symbols of their languages and histories both enlightening and reconciling ...jews with jews ...jews with non-jews ...non-jews with jews ...and non-jews with non-jews ... that we can tame our tongues to bring peace to the world need not be supernatural to be miraculous but if religions stopped fighting there would be peace on earth, no? and if this can be done with mere words is that not fundamental to Christianity? is it possible that the introduction of a better way of talking to each other generated the original christian experience?

some have suggested a developmental hermeneutic where we take into account the natural observable unfolding organic stage-like patterns of growth in all human life and experience including how even our own inner systems of interpreting life and experience are always in process of developing from "faith to faith" one way of looking at it... if our primary interpretation of ________ has never changed...we are somehow stuck or resisting transformation...and well overdue. if our primary interpretation of ________ has not changed in a decade or more...we are probably ripe and ready for a new worldview. if our primary interpretation of ________ is changing...we are up in the air...on a threshhold of choice...slippery and undefined if our primary interpretation of ________ has changed recently...we are probably resting...living into exactly where we need to be. if our primary interpretation of ________ has already changed many times...our hair is likely gray or white...or gone entirely as if the real wisdom-bearing research comes not from possessing a pure perfect original unchanging interpretation of a text... ...but from having enough elbows in our own wake to be able to reflect on the developmental process of life and the universe as if the "end of faith" is more about "learning to leap forever" than it is about "finding a place to stay forever" seeing this in the world's ancient scriptures is a confirmation of them all...and a bonus ...but not a requirement...as development becomes self-evident seeing it in the world's ancient scriptures does help generate a "nonchristotheocentric hermeneutic" but authentic inter-religious realization does not occur between young and immature forms of religion as it does among the wisest forms of religion...or "the most humiliated group of them all" if you will shame, not sin, was what drove them from eden

me too and without interpreting the interpretation... ...Peter's interpretation in Acts 2:14 and following at least made enough sense to convert 3000 devotees from all over the world...and give birth to the christian church of course...there are now over 2 millenia of interpretations of that interpretation ...including each of our own imo, pfal seemed to dodge and skip a lot of it ...but then again peter says some strange stuff

words of gold...thank you

well said like Joseph...able to speak the symbolic language of dreams such "speaking in tongues" plays a HUGE role in dream interpretation and dreams played a HUGE role in the bible and original christianity yet the "tongues" of modern mainstream christianity dont seem to have much to do with dreams at all but then again...neither does modern mainstream christianity dreams do not seem anywhere near as important now as they were to the people in scripture

speaking in tongues = communicating the full spectrum of wavelengths of life...symbolism and archetypical pattern recognition in dialogue...enables inter-religious realizations like on pentecost. as if to say "oh, i recognize all myths and histories in the forms and shapes that the words (of men) are merely pointing to." so yes...i suppose i speak in tongues

"tree of good + evil" is the classic illustration of a dualistic system as if to say "if your spiritual nourishment is from systems of "good/bad" you will be playing God, live in shame, make life harder in general, and suffering will stand between you and paradise." because in the eyes of God...all is ultimately good, true and beautiful...and "evil" is a relative concept Jesus seemed to agree...and lived and died in (and for) awareness of nonduality the end of enmity = no more enemies = making friends of enemies this includes the fourth horseman

this last line especially seems to point to the crux of the matter and what i have come to trust about contemplative dimension of the enneagram as well as contemplative understanding of God, Christ, scripture (and religion and life in general) as if the biblical "baby's milk" and "daily bread" of "practice" and "study" and "research" is found not in beliefs...or interpretation and translation of texts...or thinking or wanting or wishing... ...but by simply sitting down, being still, being quiet, closing your eyes, and paying very close attention...for extended periods of time...on a regular basis. How else does one expect to see what is going on inside the self unless one actually spends time there...awake? How else does one expect to remove the splinter in our own eye if we do not discover our (inner) eye? this is beginner's mind but without some contemplative understanding of the gospel and history of religious experience ...and without some form of actual practice to test and directly experience such an understanding, the meaning of manifestations of 1 Cor 12 will likely remain a mystery to christians and never leave the realm of supernatural powers and/or endless translational and conceptual disagreements and debates. like in twi/pfal and ilk...our modern mainstream christianity has lost almost all awareness of this practical fundamental aspect of christianity. we have even actually come to avoid and demonize disciplines involving any sense of stillness, silence, interiority as if they were alien, enemies, new age, nonsensical, or insane. this lack of interiority and lack of self-examination leads to being trapped in "outer darkness" ...and all the anger and sorrow and enmity that goes with it. without some sense of devotion to the interior life...we are next to nothing like the original christians. meanwhile...atheists, even though they avoid the same terrain, have no choice but to debunk the externalization of the interior and literalization of the myths. ... some good news, as then, is that the path is always as close as our very breath...and very responsive to even the simplest flicker of our attention in that direction. and Christian history is full of well-developed art forms for doing exactly this. not supernatural...but extra-ordinary...organic...anatomical we repent by turning completely around... we cease our searching only outwardly for God...and take the most direct path to the center of our own nature. this is the lesson of the ages for both faith and reason.

seems to me to be more than just one attracting factor but overall they are the same as everywhere else promises of power over our suffering and joy promises of significance, meaning, importance promises of membership, familiarity, relationship promises of structures, processes, programs, stability promises of life after death, protection from harm and such of course, the qualities of the hows makes worlds of differences

nothing new under the sun indeed seems to me...that any person or group ...or group of groups...or groups of groups of groups...whose mission and method is to both dump and trump a vast majority of over 2 millenia of experiences and thoughts and languages and writings and conversations regarding "god" (and other labels for ultimate reality) ...seems bound only to reinvent wheels that do not roll very well ...if at all like breaking a wee branch off a big tree and turning away from the living system for the sake of the dying stick my advice...turn around ...look up ...look down ...start remembering ...start grafting

from cult to culture and cultivation... my art is soaking wet with zeroness i like the zen enzo around the ten oxherding pictures...and job's whirlwind i find zeroness to be more holarchical/whole-archical than hierarchical linear, yes...but as concentric ladders of subjectivity and objectivity radiating in all directions whole-parts of whole-parts in whole-parts of whole-parts...nested in the face of the deep where "upward" and "downward"..."higher" and "lower" ...can be "inward" and "outward" and 2 dimensional zero becomes a potent symbol for a more multidimensional 'wombingness'

may be worth comparing pfal and all the ninenesses of pentecost and the epistles with the histories of the enneagram...Enneagram of Personality and The Fourth Way Enneagram

dear brother Roy... glad i noticed this thread... ...please know that i am not upset with you...never have been...not even close. And I watched some of them...but the U-Tubes did not offend me either. I'm just currently suffering from an all-media information overload hangover...forcing my self to be pickier about the quantity and quality of information i digest. And after over ten years of online socializing i've decided not to engage publicly and/or personally in social networks for awhile. Partially because i am trying to focus and re-prioritize. I don't write fast enough or well enough....and life is dealing up a perfect sh!tstorm of realities to navigate....and socializing was complicated and challenging and confusing enough before all the hypertext. I find myself often hoping my online friends can understand my absence without taking it personal. I think of you often, Roy...I read much of your story and find it admirable how you are putting so much out there. and thanks for doing it...I wonder if someday i will be as courageous as you in this regard. If we both live to see the day i find my way ... one of my prayers has long been that we can meet and spend some time. But if not...as the ancients might say when parting..."may you die well by living well." ...one of the greatest blessings i have come to know. in Love, Todd

Sorry my post came across that way, dww. My own long-developed interest in "zero the hero" is what draws me to your posts. I'm mostly only pointing towards some parallel fields, histories, terms and schools of thought that i am familiar with that seem highly relevent to and supportive of your theories...maybe even able to fill in some holes. By all means, carry on with your life's work. Sounds like you've at least got a very interesting book/s...and a unique and original expression of some timeless notions.

ah...ok...spouting and well...thanks for clarifying regarding the degree of your self-confidence...i was not aware carry on

compelled to break my posting fast... except the following quotes, i cant help but agree with most of what you have put out here, dww While your choice of wording may be somewhat unique...and you may have come to this quite naturally on your own....the world's religious (non-fundamentalist) histories are soaking wet with what you are describing. The unmanifest, formless, emptiness and "clear light" nature of reality is a significant part of the "sacred arts of dying," "books of the dead," etc... Not just old news...not even just old old news....but old old old news. And the contemporary fields of consciousness have added mountains of understanding to "God is zero." Perhaps even more important than beliefs and theories about a concept...are the rich variety of practices and disciplines that give direct experience of this aspect of "God." Fundamentalist forms of religions are largely unaware of this, and prefer belief and story over direct experience (which is typically reserved for special people and dead people). To practice tasting and touching the causal side of life (aka "zeroness") is preparation for "dying well." To "rest in the Witness" is to "relax into the divine ground of being." To sit in the seat of the ultimate subject. Not supernatural...but rather extra-ordinary "I AMness." Beyond conceptual thoughts about "God," but discovering the root of self AS the field of zeros that all else live and moves within. This is why "holy spirit" is a "downpayment"...because tasting the ground of emptiness (as self) has the potential to radically free an ego from the fear of dying (in a non-imaginary way). Once freed, the ego is not destroyed, but becomes a vehicle for greater love. This is the common heart of all religion (and science). To this i will suggest that "formlessness" of God is only the half-point of the fuller story. A vital half, but only half. Because "God has no opposite"...."God" is both zero and the opposite of zero (One ...and the many). "God is All in All" describes a nondual marriage of form and formlessness...subject and object. A union of what is ...and what is not. The profound awareness of the formless nature of spirit and reality and such is also as a potential trap if the next step is not taken (union). The typical potential age for realizing "zeroness" is the middle of life...but the second half of life is spent re-identifying with ALL of creation now that "the ground" has been found. The "embodiment" of God. Without such, realization of "zero" is useless...and well...as empty as it sounds. Young monks were often warned strongly against it. Addicted to bliss. Stuck in nirvana. etc... Many of the traditions even developed some form of commitment to "refrain from entering heaven" in order to be of service in the world. This involves an re-identification of all that had been transcended. Not only is one spirit ...but one is one with all that is in the infinite field of spirit. This union of form and formlessness is the language of "an intentional descent into earth and hell" with compassion and concern for even "devils." ... anyway...i'm really enjoying the way you are processing and presenting this cult of zero, dww. I hope my crude and rapid attempt to summarize and add so much makes some sort of sense. I have likely mispoke here and there and left out plenty of important points...but i trust you can sift and winnow your own way through it. peace

thanks geisha...yeah, DNA is beautiful like that too... although for what its worth...i wasnt referring to DNA...but something less miniature...something more abstract and less reducable...like the whole structures of our consciousness...our psycho-spiritual cartographies...the interior castles and chambers of the soul...etc...where DNA plays a supporting role in who we are...yet not the primary location yes. all of them...even the "bad" ones, and including all non-theologies and not only "covers," but infuses, permeates, drives, pushes and pulls...there seems no better word to describe the very nature of the field that "all alls" live and move and are being in. Every part...every whole....every pain...every joy...even hate...is already always falling in and through love. yearning...the yearner...and the yearned...all soaking wet IN love as one. as a wave is a part of the ocean...selfish love is still a piece of LOVE...parental love still is a piece of LOVE...romantic love is still a piece of LOVE...fraternal love is still a piece of LOVE...reasonable love still is a piece of LOVE...addicted love is still a piece of LOVE...avoidance of love is still a piece of LOVE "love" is still a word that points to things that exist prior to and alongside words. Every religion formed words for it. Both origin and destination. Inescapable paradox.

thanks e. im glad you dont feel so bad about it. i think...if one was somehow able to remove filters and see a "color-coded" view our interior selfs, i'm guessing that all of us (including any and all "black-and-white thinkers/feelers") are vibrantly kaleidoscopic and animate...stained glass windows with a million pieces of every color...and even if only one or more colors dominate the scene at any given time, every “window” is ever only drop-dead gorgeous, imo.

more scrambling for words... life simply develops...and development occurs in stages... faith develops in stages self-awareness develops in stages cognition develops in stages morals develop in stages consciousness develops in stages yada yada yada stages build sequentially on failures of previous stages...all stages eventually run their course (fail)...out of the ashes rise a higher order....such is the wisdom of folly all are forgiven...all is beautiful, good and true life is indeed a stage :P and no matter where one is on jacob's ladder...the ladder goes both up and down from there hell goes all the way to hell...and heaven goes all the way to heaven and navigating the space between rungs is more useful than trying to stay on any given rung forever Jesus seems like one who was dying to get off the ladder...in order to see all the rungs and Pen's article and this thread highlights a specific rung well...and does so from another rung ... ...yet another very loose sample of a section of the ladder that is in our world today...perhaps to help see where fundamentalism fits...and why it is NOT the whole of Christianity (even though it may be a majority): - subjective "magical christianity" is focused on personal power of belief, supernatural miracles, and God's personal parental interest in my eternal well-being. - intersubjective "mythological christianity" is focused on supernatural scripture, purity of interpretation, conversion to elite culture, loyalty, and God's familial interest in our group's exclusive well-being. - objective "rational christianity" is focused on religious liberty, practical activity and thought, textual histories, and God's observable laws of nature. - interobjective "social christianity" is focused on universal compassion and understanding, interfaith dialogue, peacemaking, charity and God's grace and mercy. - aperspectival "contemplative christianity" is focused on a direct experience of God, nature of consciousness, spiritual practices, devotional life, preparation for dying, an integration of all stages. my guess is that most of the founders, saints and heroes of religious history lived from the last two ... note: all of these stages not only exist outside in religions other than christianity, but they exist outside of the context of any of the world's religions. also...our development can and does enter and exit (and re-enter) christian or religious contexts at any stage. In other words, one could go through a magic stage in an agnostic upbringing, then join a fundamentalist group, then leave the group to become a rational atheist, then become an christian advocate for social justice, then join a buddhist monastery, etc...

there really seems to be a lot going on in this thread...and some great clarifying trying to happen a few points to add for discussion, if i may...please pardon the abrupt nature of some of the points...as well as the heavy metaphor...such things are so hard to express in small bites. ... regardless of where and how "fundamentalism" fits on any sort of fuller spectrum view of christianity (and there does seem to be a fuller spectrum), there seems within even that narrow bandwidth a wider range of qualities possible...from "extremely extreme fundamentalism" to "mildly mild fundamentalism"...or maybe even from "very sick fundamentalism" to "very healthy fundamentalism." same can be said for any other "-ism" both TWI and a mainstream church can share the qualities of fundamentalism...yet be very different in many other ways. and ..."fundamentalism" seems a relatively new and narrow term being applied to a wider older condition. And while it is often used to describe a Christian context, other religious thought and behavior has been described as "fundamentalist." there are "fundamentalist" buddhists, for example, who might as well be singing "buddha loves me this i know, because the sutras tell me so" regardless...there seems to be a "pre-existing" pattern of individual and collective human thought and behavior that the term is pointing to...a state or condition that exists regardless of what it is being called at any given time (as with all states or conditions) another new and broader term that seems to apply is "ethnocentric" sports fans, corporate culture, celeb/musician fan clubs are all non-religious examples of ethnocentricity. in terms of developmental stages (cognitively, morally, or otherwise), what we typically call "fundamentalist," "religious," "believer," and "faith", is a perfectly normal stage for pre-pubic children...and/or humanities' anthropological waves of pre-pubic childhood...our very important and irreplaceable "age of myth" that picked up the pieces where a more tyrannical stage failed. this stage is when our capacity for "inter-subjective shared interiority"...both cult and culture...family and tribe....our shared stories, legends, myths...etc...bloomed (or not) to whatever degrees as adults, we are not only lost without a healthy sense of this "cultural self"...but we are also quite lost if it is the only note on our flute (or somehow considered the superior note) the wisest among the ancient (such as the jews) did not have a problem with the sacred scripture being a story. That genesis or Job was a "mere" story made it more important and valuable than if it was fact. More nutritious. More useful. Freer even. We are not to mistake the map for a territory. from "its not just a story!" to "its just a story!" to "its a story!" This is a difficult position for fundamentalism. For the shared storyline to be realized as less than "absolute truth" is to shed the reliance on an intersubjective worldview. This can be experienced like a death. If "i am my worldview"..."i" certainly dont want it (me) to "die." Which is why mere information that challenges the literalization of a shared myth is often responded to as if one is facing an attack on their life. Particularly as it all pertains to our fear and/or denial of death...such as a need for the resurrection story (and rapture and such) to be literally absolutely true. Our own fear of dying needs it to be literally true...when even deeper and wider figurative truths may have been the more useful point of the resurrection story all along. ... and too...perhaps worth mentioning...the conflict between "faith and reason" ...between "religion and science" is often somehow painted as a conflict between the only two worldviews worth arguing about. This ignores a much more vibrant range of human thought and experience (in the contexts of both science and religion). the conflict that rages is typical of the space between two general stages...and quite unresolvable from either position the rational worldview is not the top of the evolutionary ladder as it tends to claim...but rather a mere "rung up" and contrary to the claims of either camp...the language of both "science" and "christianity" live on every known rung...morally, cognitively, and otherwise but ...since objectivity comes after intersubjectivity....intersubjectivity is trying to resist or asurp the role of looming objectivity...while objectivity is still stinging from having just left intersubjectivity behind and tends to focus on debunking it rather than growing more (and facing the dreaded inter-objectivity and such). ... odd as it may sound...i attribute the abundance of adult fundamentalism today (as with any time) to a lack of sufficient puberty rites...particularly male puberty rites. After a few generations of not replacing our "wise elders" who knew...they basically vanished. All we can do now is re-invent them ("wise elders") in our children.

from "faith" to "faith" to "faith" to "faith"...our sense of "self" sure does seem to leap and move from time to time as if womb-to-tomb, life is an ongoing series of profound humiliations...each enlightenment being a seed for the humiliation to come good luck, DWW...and congrats

for what its worth...no, you are not alone ham. ive had my share of such moments...and the quests that follow. and it may be that "a fraction of a second" more and your material form would have very well "survived" in a general conventional sense...yet not in others...like some sort of "extreme makeover" of body and mind and such...even more transformative than the peace you mention. but i am generalizing. the varieties of such experiences are as complex and as exotic as any wilderness...and of course i dont need to tell you not to take my word for anything. one "how" that helped me realize such things...was by comparing religions, comparing religious experiences, and comparing religious claims...and noticing patterns that suggested discernable spectrums of differences in doctrines and practices...even among those using the same texts and languages. was extra helpful to find vast fields of many others who have been noticing the same kinds of patternings...since the dawn of time. being mostly poetic here...but basically...if "faith" is an instrument of 7 (or so) potential wavelengths...MOGS like vpw and such seem terminally stuck in the first few notes...yet typically think and claim they are playing the whole staff...and so they reject and demonize all other "frequencies" on the staff...unable to "harmonize" the whole. but as one begins to discern the full bandwidth of patterns...it becomes easier and easier to realize what step any given "MOG" is standing on...and making claims from. (perhaps even more so...easier to realize where we are on our own journey) and "scum" seems an apt word...as the doctrines and practices, desires and actions and focuses of such MOGs can be associated with the functions of lowest "altitude" of bodily functions. ...faith below the navel, if you will

the future external vehicle interpretation is interesting. many come to the same kind of conclusions. i once thought so my self. but my current guess is that the "vehicle" being envisioned and understood during the story of Ezekial's altered state of consciousness is that of a human being. In essence, Ezekial was being introduced to his self on the inside more clearly...and by doing so, he was beginning to see the nature of humanity. He was beginning to be introduced to the "riddle in the mirror" (often known as "through a glass darkly"). Although he may have gone on to interpret what he saw in his altered state as a literal mythological being. It was a step. A peek. Not a literal description of an external future object, but a rich composition of archetypes and metaphors that introduce the 4 cardinal points of the constant present potential inner psycho-spiritual dynamics of all human beings. I have lost count as to how many (ancient, old, new and very new) maps and models and languages of the human psyche almost always seem to start by carving it into 4 quarters....then expanding on each. imo, it is perennial patterns such as this that point towards the generic divine. Not exclusive momentary shards. But that which is found to be all over...all the time. So...what use is this kind of information? For one...understanding the cardinal points of the self help us understand the four corners of inner suffering, rather than a one-size fits all type of hammer. To the depth and degree we understand these...we can respond to the human condition more effectively...more specifically...in any tongue.

welcome to the cafe longgone...i admire your courage to tell this part of your story here. and while i cant say i feel quite the way you do about danger and loss being associated with bible and prayer...i at least want to respond to let you know i read your post...and otherwise offer my witness. I am have experienced my share of danger and loss regardless of my relationship to the bible and prayer. Also, the danger and loss that can often come with expressing one's spirituality in conventional world. i would be interested in hearing about how you commune with God...if only to break bread with a fellow traveler. i can certainly relate to the loneliness and isolation of being a spiritual seeker...and an investigator of the interior life. I relate more to the desert fathers and mothers of Christianity than modern mainstream church life. as such...a few things i can ask/suggest... have you looked into other forms of spiritual counsel that are not as superstitious as the one you described...not as much about fixing as they are about listening and friendship? Quaker friendship practices come to mind. Also, a good "spiritual director" from the catholic tradition can help. Both are more about helping you hear your self into deeper awareness than they are about fixing. also, if you are a reader, perhaps you might look into the notion of the "dark night of the soul" by "Saint" John of the Cross. His writings and experiences deal with the spiritual growth that comes from the in-between times of not knowing. i am not catholic, nor do i lump all catholics into the same boat. Ive met too many monks and nuns that defy the stereotypes...and are not hung up on dogmatism. there is something rich and authentic and wise about the contemplative and monastic Christian world that applies directly to "being alone together"...many arts and practices developed specifically for the inner life. 2 millenia of Christian history has generated a diverse range of effective prayer practices that are often overlooked by american protestantism. also...if you are concerned about the danger that comes with getting closer to the christian bible...have you considered the jewish traditions? not as a belief system, but as another lineage rich with arts and wisdom that also deals with the inner life....stages of life...aging...etc... or even a step further...buddhist or other eastern lineages? they are also rich with wisdom and actual practices for communing with the divine, finding answers, and basically helping find clarity on our paths. Ive seen too much to say they are dangerous or contrary to christianity. but also again...i am not an official member of any of these religions. But nor do i lump them all in some flat equalizing way. Within each are depths and degrees of qualities of practices and experience. While they all seem rooted in common ground...there are also differences worth appreciating. i wish you luck in your search. thanks again for sharing your conundrum here.

Robert Thurman is wonderful. I saw him and Karen Armstrong chat the other day on some cable channel. yes...and yes. Center for Non-Violent Communication has been working on it. Also, something very American and very Christian is the quaker/friends movement...and related arts and ways of dialogue. Also, Terror Management Theory, based on the works of Ernest Becker, looks at the underlying death-related fears that cause us to react in such uncivil ways. Also, the many fields of developmentalism add some important information as to how people at different stages of moral, cognitive, faith, and egoic development experience the world. Also, a restoration of very vital rites of passage for transformation through stages of life. other efforts and organizations and methods too...but it will at least require an applied synthesis of the best practices to date. And not an anything goes manner...but in a way that can measure the quality of such practices and efforts. There are "stage-appropriate" responses that apply. Flat compassion is radical, but not enough. But without it, nothing will ever be enough. Justice without compassion is not justice worth seeking. "Punishment" without compassion generates more problems. Even science without compassion often produces horrific results. In other words...compassion is necessary, but not sufficient.