sirguessalot

interesting article Penworks...interesting thread. a few things.. my post-twi adventures have led me through many fields...one of which i feel most lucky to have studied/practiced in was world-class hospice education. ...there is a little known period of european history where common ground was found by christians, jews, muslims, buddhists, celts, and others... and this common ground was dying...as religion was born out of the need to process all stages of the mortal span, and the profound experiences that accompany them. Together they built hospice/hospital/hospitality systems that were like palaces for the sick and dying. With the discovery of America...the extreme fundamentalist part of the church basically wiped most of them (and their writings) out. I dont think western science, medicine, or religion has ever recovered from it. Our western world has been in terror of dying/aging for a long time now...which has pretty much disconnected most religions from their deeper more meaningful roots. ...as it relates to "mythological fundamentalism"...and i realize this may be challenging...but one of the important differences between fundamentalism and the form of spirituality that finds common ground in dying is the importance given to actual PRACTICE. Fundamentalism gives more importance to the right translation...while the forms of religion that are most likely behind the world's sacred texts focus on actual practices that actually stimulate the transformation of human consciousness. This includes practices that increase the capacity of the heart and mind...interfaith dialogue is an important sign of this type of recognition and intention. ...As ive posted about around here before, developmental studies have shown that there is a bandwidth of ways any given text or artifact or experience is interpreted. As it pertains to the bible, or any sacred scripture...fundamentalism is but one of the ways. But the authors and founders of the religions were most likely not literal fundamentalists. Much more can be said about all this. Even more has been said and written by folks much more learned and experienced than me. My lot is more of a bard telling stories of my travels. A signpost pointing toward a great many something elses.

i agree, in part...but for what its worth...it seems that... "somewhere other than the bible" is NOT omnipresent "someplace other than the church or books about religion" is NOT omnipresent "without someone pointing" is NOT omnipresent (not to mention how the entire above quote IS "someone pointing") seems to me "omnipresent" must somehow include all these excluded things ...just saying

not even close...but i think i get your point the depths and degrees of service in the world's monastic histories are worlds apart from the kind of servitude we were being herded to in twi

congrats...i love the word "fierce" having experienced individual dependence and collective dependence we experience individual independence perhaps next is collective independence followed by individual interdependence then collective interdependence maybe there is even a Christian version of each

but the animal might also eat the book and get sick...or even die or the child might hurt someone with the book...or even kill them or the older child made up his own story for the book he could not read...or even refuse to change the story or the adult made up their own meanings for the words they did not understand...or even coerce others to believe them or the next adult claims to be an expert on physics ...or even convinces others to believe this or the next adult spent more time thinking about it than doing anything...or even simply does nothing ever or the next adult is convinced that their book is absolutely true...or even the pinnacle of truth ...yada yada who knows how far such ladders go? ya know? my point is essentially a detailed example of what II Peter 3:16 may have been be pointing at..."As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some hard things to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." but Paul and Peter are "dead" ...and cant be interviewed ...but their words are here...so we do have at least some form of landmarks for how far they may have made it on their trip as well as 2-thousand years of interpretations to compare...which is something they did not have

yes ... and no so both ultimately we are all on a solitary journey...yet we are also all together in that condition so the notion of being "alone together" is an important one a community's capacity to support the "individual and private journey" is a hallmark of good religion it is such a community who is able to compare notes and develop practices and exercises that help support the "individual and private journey" good friendship helps us hear our selves into greater self-awareness where toxic faith is less concerned with self-awareness...and more about "fixing you" ...which is at (or near) the heart of all misplaced messiah complexes, religious crusades, political oppression, and bad medicine imo, the modern Quaker practices are among the most developed and effective American Christian form of this type of friendship today. and most who use them are not Quakers...and are able to adapt them to fit their own life...to which most Quakers i've met dont seem to mind at all but "allergies to all spiritual groups" is a sure way to overlook this sort of thing ...but that is not to say we wont somehow get lucky in the woods on our own but everyone lives and dies in relationship to all others so even our private inward journey can be a self-centered quest ...or we can go inside for the sake of all others...which includes one's self also...interest in such an individual and private journey is a natural change of life ...like moving into the autumn of our lives where we evaluate what we've sown ...and prepare to reap ...so we are ready to go even deeper inside for winter this sort of thing is closer to the original role of religion ...marking rites of passage for natural stages of life

yes...great thread. thanks skyrider I recall a story...this is my version: about how an animal picked up an object in its mouth. But it was hard and did not taste very good so the animal spit it out. Then a child picked up the same object and used it to bang on some things and make some fun noises. But the child got bored and put it down. Then an older child picked up the same object and knew that it was what adults called a "book." But this child did not know how to read. Then an adult picked up the book and could read some of the words, but still knew little about the book. Then another adult picked up the book and could read most of it, and knew the book explained something about physics. Then another adult picked up the book and knew that it explained psychology, physics and a variety of social and cultural issues. Then another adult picked up the book and recognized it as a book they themselves wrote...and it was an exploration of the origins of all those things...in spite of the languages. Then another adult picked up the book and saw something the author had left out...and began to write another book on the same intersections with this new part included.

amen

a side note...and not at all to discount why waysider used it in this thread... "shhhhhh" was used in ancient religious forms ...not because it was a secret cult of opportunists and followers who had dirty secrets to keep and protect...but because it served as a reminder that silence and stillness are the "ground of being" that All is in...which is also essentially somewhere at or very near "the ground" of all religious history and "shhh" also served as a reminder that though we may make words and art and such that represent the absolute, NONE of it is the same as that which it is pointing at. The absolute totality of any such "God" or "ultimate absolute truth and reality" is beyond the scope of our tongue...or pen...or hypertext in other words...dont forget that "the map is NOT the territory"...and by doing so we are free to make better and better maps and languages ...but if we think what we are saying is something absolutely true ...then "shhhhh" ... perhaps take a vow of silence until we learn how to speak again...that sort of thing. and "shhh" was also a useful reminder to protect a sensitive trade secret or skill...like "keeping guns out of the hands of children" ...or protecting specialized and developed processes from being co-opted and abused... or protecting the methods and practices of religious orders from being twisted in some traditions...even some of the simplest meditation techniques were considered "too hot to handle"...and in the hands of those who were not prepared can often lead to a mere reinforcing of the ego's game. A good reason to "shhhh." But this is a period of global information ...where all the cats are coming out of all the bags. I pray for a very loud "shhhh" that might shut up the plastic shamans, hedonistic gurus, cultic fundamentalisms, flat scientisms, and pop-spiritualities.

seems to be patterns in all this ...a profound avoidance of very vital states and conditions...like silence, stillness, darkness, depth, obscurity, mystery, uncertainty, etc... ...a resisting of an ordinary and important change in life ... when our thoughts start moving from the subjective background of our experience and become objects in our experience...that "oh, i am not my thoughts and feelings ...because here they are" moment ya know...all those lights, sounds, feelings we experience on our inside ...when we close our eyes ...try to go to sleep...or are simply thinking...meditating...dreaming...resting...dying in spite of all else...if vpw was imagining how people were talking sh!t about his teachings, and if he was starting to become able to notice his own interior, but RESISTED owning those objects as being a part of his own self...he may see these sights and sounds and feelings (esp. those he liked least of all) as invading objects from somewhere outside...somewhere uncertain ... and therefore somewhere dangerous ...aka "demons" trying to get in even further...rather than admit to his self that these objects are actually inside of him, coming from him, and are a part of him (aka “his”)…he further interprets them as his supernatural vision of what is actually happening outside of him...”a vision of the demon realm plotting his destruction”...so he re-creates stories and languages and theologies and cultures to support his interpretation of his own imagination. and he may have resisted taking responsibility for such "visions of demons" til his deathbed...or maybe he woke up about it a bit towards the end ...happens sometimes regardless... to add to this kind of mess...the systemized attempt to somehow bypass by surpassing any and all developed psychological or spiritual disciplines and histories... basically cuts out most all of the ways confidentiality and privacy have been developed and applied in many many fields of life...including deeply christian ones yet...engaging directly with these sorts of things (one's interior experience) with compassion (and precision) was indeed The "baby's milk" of early christianity, such as can be seen in monasticism...which is at or near the root of all ancient forms of religious experiences and histories ...including jewish and christian ones. and this included "codes" and "rules" about how to handle confidentiality of deeply personal information conveyed during periods of sharing or guidance. these resistances seem to point even more to TWI's (and others') severe disconnection from roots of not only the heart of Christianity...but from any doctrine or practice that values a rigorous taking responsibility for one's own self-reflection, self-examination and self-awareness as a most direct way to "love thy neighbor as self" ... and "bring peace on earth and goodwill towards all" ...or otherwise live in service to All-in-All by taking personal responsibility for our own crazy human animal natures not "end here"...but "start here" and "first take the beam out" ... “the first shall be last,” ...etc but of course TWI is also a product of the tides of history...in a historically disconnected time...which seems like one very very big ongoing "father forgive them for they know not what they do" moment but not only have most modern forms of religions more or less failed to deliver in this regard...neither modernity nor postmodernity can seem to notice these kinds of differences either must have something to do with what we are trying to learn now

thanks spectrum...i'd certainly be interested in reading what youve come to envision about it and very nice additions TBone some here know i like this particular thread of inquiry...always have...even as an artist in twi...i sketched and drew a lot about it... before during and after twi...always finding ways to give form and dimension to that which the mind is seeing when reading or hearing words ezekial's description of his experience of these "faces and wheels of being" are a lifelong favorite of mine ...clearly one of the biggest enigmas of the modern bible...even plays a major role in the "throneroom of god" in The Revelation ...connected directly to the four horsemen too a large part my published and unpublished artworks are but a trail of studies in my ongoing exploration of this archetype. not only as it appears in the Bible...but as it appears throughout the arts and literatures of the world's histories. ...patterns that are wider than, but include, any particular branch of language attached is one study of the possible structural components of the pattern (not the spirals...but the nested circles behind them) ..."a quadralateral intersection of infinite wholes" ...an abstract expression of quantum mechanics ...or "where all touches all" and such

to clarify... of course i left a lot out...life is messy and complicated but i want to add that in spite of an almost utter lack of threshholds for development in our systems the natural drive and impulse to develop is older and stronger than society and so even though our systems may not provide an adequate framework for development im sure most anyone reading can notice one or more stages of change in our own lives but its more like a self-initiating wilderness experience ...accidents and coincidences...luck and fortune...grace and mercy much like the difference between being born in a hospital at the hands of a skilled midwife ...and being born in the woods without help from anyone but a terrified mother so we may have found our own way to grow and change our worldview...or our morality...or our self-sense ...but we still may not know how this growth fits in the big picture of overall growth...it just happens ... also...society can also reinforce non-development...like much of our society does like how self-centered people do not respect non-self-centered people and tend to attract other self-centered people

more... stage development is something that typically is not on our radar until the second half of life anyway ...once we have enough stages to reflect on and all the world's ancient religions have had highly developed people in them ...and not just post-mythological...but even post-rational people and so in spite of the tyrants and crusaders that the world's religions are so infamous for there were also those who had a keen understanding of the natural stages of development and so embedded in the cultural story and processes and wisdom were methods for assisting development and they understood the harm caused from societies whose elders and leaders are unable to examine their own lives but there is no guarantee a society generates such "elders" and if at some point someone stops providing "rites of passage" that assist in overall development it does not take long before such wisdom simply dies off and then those "uninitiated boys" who grow to be the oldest (and in charge) are as Oak described...not only able to justify anything in order to serve their self...but able to find joy and take pride in causing harm ... regardless of the contradictions and hypocricy neither culture nor objectivity is valued...because they were never invited to develop the capacity in the first place ...and as decade after decade passed by in this state...it becomes less and less likely they will

to add... strong and immediate rejection of stages is a typical response of a particular stage and the number of people at this particular stage has been growing rapidly for a few generations now which is why i think it is perhaps more important than ever that stages are addressed and understood ...in spite of the reactions ...so we can keep growing and keep from going backwards

i'll at least say this...ignoring/rejecting/avoiding/devaluing the types of stages of development ive mentioned is a sure way to continue not getting "it." and not only not getting the scenario Oak described...but not getting the crucial differences at (or near) the root of all conflicts and misunderstandings in life. and an odd thing is...while there is a lot of great new info on stages of development...there is also a lot of OLD info...as well as VERY OLD info. and for some odd reason...our society has never been more out-of-touch with stages of development than we are now (in spite of all the info) i cant help but notice the connection between this profound loss ... and our current wave of childlike adults in charge...as Oak described...co-opting anything and everything...and not just the world's ancient scriptures. because if adults do not include some practical sense of stages of development in our worldview and processes...we will not help our children move through them. and if there are at least 4 critical stages of change before we are even 20 years old...and we typically miss ALL of them...it is no wonder elders worth being called "wise" are RARER than ever...and aging and death are considered optional (or a curse) in our society...and "the terrible twos" have generations ago left the nursery and entered the executive board rooms. of course...if we are unable or unwilling to examine our own self in terms of stages...it will be much harder to include stages in our search for answers and of course...even notions of stages can get co-opted (like everything else) by people at any stage welcome to a brave new world

my point in a nutshell... "tyranny" is a result of "arrested development" notice the great "objectification" of the people of the world and not all of it is done in the name of a religion the cult of money is alive and well as ever with plenty of tyrannical atheists competing for position of pope ...teach your children well

i think its like ive been saying all these years Oak... people develop a variety of capacities and these capacities develop in stages religious text is NOT at a stage, per se though it was written by someone who was ...but people are at stages as are groups of people there are many stages of moral development stages of cognitive development stages of ego development stages of faith development etc... so not only are people at stages of development we are at MULTIPLE stages of development at once and our worldview is a culmination of multiple capacities in the process of developing and regardless as to whether one uses language of christianity, islam, atheism, psychology, or pro-sports ...all these languages can and are used by people at all stages of development an adult who is as morally developed as a 2-year old, for example, can use the same words as someone who is as developed as an 8-year old and the same words as someone who is as developed as a 13-year old and the same words as someone who is as developed as a 20-year old and beyond... and the differences between stages of development are NOT minor, btw which makes it somewhat easier to notice them and "God" is just a word ...a purely selfish "God" worshipper is going to think and act differently than a "God" worshipper who values their church over individuals (or other churches) ...a purely selfish "atheist" is going to think and act very differently than an "atheist" who values all of humanity ...a purely selfish "muslim" is going to think and act very differently than a "muslim" who values all life on earth but if one rejects that such stages of development exist...which many do... ...none of that will make any sense and it may be impossible to understand the difference between an opportunistic christian cult-leader...a crusading denominational christian ...a rational christian...a christian advocate for social justice...a christian monk who actually dies for the sake of millions

this quote from T.S. Eliot that reminds me of all this... "We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time."

yeah...thousands of parabola but even beyond illustration and metaphor which are wonderful and necessary is direct experience (which can then only be pointed towards using illustration and metaphor) but direct experience of "I amness" is something we tend to avoid in religion any more as if we are more comfortable arguing over which long dead people experienced "it" and which did not this kind of "faith" seems only to justify ignorance and lack of experience and is mostly limited to arguing which story is the best story i see it in those familiar notions like "jesus suffered and died so we dont have to" and the general lack of actual practice in churches ...at least the kinds of practices that seemed more common in ancient (and not-so-ancient) times but those who pointed out "I Amness" were often persecuted and killed for threatening the control of dogmatic myths and it may be that direct experience of "I amness" is too small a path too close to home too direct too free too freeing cynicism at the end of a long hard road often keeps us from looking beneath the thinnest layer of dust what fool would believe such a thing?

you sure know how to ask em, dear brother Roy ... a simple picture of heaven that makes sense to me...helps me relax ...spaciousness as if, when our bodies fail...our sense of self begins to return to heaven...our original home...our original nature...which is "space" or perhaps even "the space that space is in" in other words...when our bodies fail...our ego dissolves...and awareness of our "original self" (as space) expands rapidly outwardly towards the ends of the universe as if the human experience is such a potent knot of energy and light...that when it is released from its prison...that illumination explodes this begins a very very very long and amazing journey of re-discovery...one we can make once we are free from the limits of our human animal self and senses the underlying patterns of things become clearer than ever ..as we simply expand ... which is why practicing seeing (experiencing/tasting/touching) this spacious heaven before our bodies die is a common suggestion/gift of ancient wisdom...of rabbis, saints and sages "to die before you die" is not a morbid nihilism...but a call to start kicking at the walls of the egg and no, not just for one's self...but for all because human suffering ("hell") is a result of not knowing the depths of this radical grace we are already sleeping and dreaming in and our ego, not knowing heaven... naturally fears death and dying ...and generates a multitude of reactions...many of them violent and destructive toward one another egos generate myths about who is going to heaven...and who is not which justifies more war, prejudice, and a general lack of compassion for our universal condition in this middle place ... the "great cloud of witnesses"...are those who are already "home"...all of them no, not disembodied egos fumbling and stumbling through life as they did when in their bodies ...but the trails of pure memory and awakened light radiating outward into infinity since the moment of their final trump ...lingering in (and as) the memory and light that lives both within and outside of us ...no longer separate entities...but a vast ocean of "life after life" of course...like Shell said so well...I don't know though it only seems to seem to seem

i hope this will be relevant to the topic i agree...in part ...but i cant help but say that they are not true of any (all) religious organization. Perhaps true for most of them...and yes, more pronounced in cults or ultra-conservative organizations. But i have experienced and know of jewish, buddhist, catholic, islamic, quaker, celtic and other organizations who... 1) embrace psychologies and sciences and see them as an important part of their "faith"... including members who are professionals in those fields 2) are open to any information...old and new...and are neither conformist or non-comformist 3) devoted to love and serve society ... and participate in government 4) are very interested and active in "spiritual realms," but not the context of a mythological war 5) are grounded in both community and self-empowerment. Being "alone together." hypothetically...even if it is only 5% of ten million religious organizations that do not fit the mold...that is still a half a million organizations that do not fit the mold but again...our experiences have been tainted with the majority of disfunctional examples...same is true for non-religious fields as well (lawyers, bankers, politicians, etc...) growing cynicism (and perhaps simple weariness) talks us out of even looking beyond the majority of examples but from what i understand of religion...historical and present...it seems that most organized religions today (and all the thousands of cults) are mostly disconnected from their own roots...and do not represent the lineages they so ardently claim to as if most christians interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically most jews interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically most muslims interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically most buddhists interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically etc... and because of it...these forms of religion cannot recognize the common roots in all religion which causes them to dig into their ethnocentric positions even more deeply...and "look outside" even less yet, the contents of the very books they claim, while often poetic and written in pre-modern times and languages, point to wisdom and understanding that is not merely ethnocentric and/or mythological...but in fact, highly rational

i feel this is an important point... whenever i read some new checklist of cult qualities any more i cant help but notice how more than half the items on the list would not be considered so harmless if it werent for the abusive contexts because of how twi and ilk copies from so so many other methods and fields and ideas its like an entire encyclopedia of valid and possibly helpful ideas have been stained in the eyes of ex-members for example...how "meditation" has been around since the dawn of time yet because of how so many CULTures have abused people with it and how pop-CULTure has really watered it down a lot of people avoid anything to do with meditation ... historically, one of the main reasons groups and practices were esoteric was to preserve lineages and techniques and languages that took generations...sometimes centuries or more...to develop same thing with any guild or specialized field...they want to avoid having to recreate an entire language set for their speciality ...and they want to avoid people using their work for abusive reasons ...and they dont want have to spend energy defending their field due to someone else's foolishness yet twi-like experiences have helped make us afraid of most any group who meets behind closed doors...even if there is a very valid reason for it

thanks everyone for the input i hope someone got something out of the exercise ... one way ive come to understand the paradox of my "i" is that there are basically two of them we have an absolute "i"... ...and a relative "i" ... the absolute "i" is the one that never changes often called "God" ...or "God's view" the "I AM" confession of Moses and Jesus ...the "was," "is" and "will be" ... the relative "i" is the one that is always changing ...that arbitrary line between "self" and "other" both are already always here with us even though we typically try in vain to make our relative "i" stay put in some permanent way ...at least til we learn that which has been expressed so well by everyone on this thread ...we cant ... if the absolute "i" is The one whole ocean of subjectivity the relative "i" can be any wave...any stream...any droplet never ever separate from the One

another way to put it... "religion" typically mistakes one's interior truth for the exterior truth and "science" simply reduces everything to exterior truths

seems to my me... that just because a story doesn't "make sense" does not make it untrue and just because a story seems "amazing" does not make it true (or "the most" true) the ongoing war between "faith" and "reason" seems mostly a misunderstanding where one is trying to claim that their subjective perspective is an objective one and the other sees it for the subjectivity it is...but dismisses the value of subjectivity both positions are too fragmented to resolve the conflict ... there are also depths and degrees of both subjectivity and objectivity such as how some find beauty in a flower, or a bird, or the ocean but not find it in a broken slab of concrete, or puss in a wound or how someone can take an objective perspective of biochemistry but not take an objective perspective of religious history