Ham

How do you know? The fiscally dishonest part that is. Not an accusation.. but I thought da way of old was fiscally honest..little did I know.. and the farmland. Can he afford to keep it? Taxes and all.. what kind of "production" is being done there? Does he rent it out? does he need free labor to make ends meet? Pay *workers* in terms of hot dogs and millet? Is it now deeded to a tax exempt non-profit group? they aren't exactly "above board" by any sense of the word I can come up with..

As far as "helping" people.. could you be a little more specific? Now some of them might be honest and all.. but generally, have they really "gotten over" it? The way experience that is.. I would interview them. Ask a few questions, calmly.. 1. How many times did you use your authority in the group to receive sexual favors? 2. How many times did you accept offers for sexual favors based on who you were in the organization? 3. How much MONEY did you receive in "love offerings" from the organization, provided to you based on your position, or "function"? 4. If you were married, how many times did you engage in adultery? 5. How many "believers" did you slander, calling them "possessed", "unfaithful" or some such? that's just starters.. I'd give them about forty five seconds on the first. During the stumbling and stuttering, I'd ask the second.. I won't paint them ALL evil and such, there are one or two I personally know who could honestly answer "zero" to all the questions. point is: for the most part, they are in no position to really "help" people.. in my opinion. Some of these guys.. maybe I shouldn't say..

How many of these "characteristics of a faithful minister" did vic exhibit? Or Loy, Geero, Panar*llo, L*nn, To*nsend, etc. etc..? vic qualified for five out of six. The idolatry issue, well, that's more about one's beliefs, isn't it.. rather vague.. of course the "mainstream" groups would give him a six out of six.. I think that is one of the main "perks" of being mog in a splinter group.. is the possibility of even being a "leader" in SOMETHING.. no reputable organization would have them..

I've heard here claim when to*ns*nd speaks, it sounds EXACTLY like the way, in the mid-seventies.. NOTHING has changed. At all. I don't quote the bible much.. but this seems pretty relevant.. I Corinthians 6: verse 9 through 12: I don't see how it agrees with christian ethics to go to their churches, their feasts, give them money.. buy their "works".. support them.. I mean.. known fornicators, idolaters and swindlers.. just doesn't make sense to me.. and for the most part.. there is no *real* repentance or regret. Just damage control.

At best, I've seen *less* abuse. Cleaned up? I dunno.. some of those guys proved themselves to be nothing more than a sow's ear. Silk purses.. sows ear.. the two never seem to meet up together in any fashion.. Look at the stiffi's, wars of prophecy against prophecy.. "borrowed" way doctrine, the portion which suited them, and they inherited the same bad habits and arrogance from the old organization.. and geero's group. practically a carbon copy of da way. At its worst. Run by a firearm toting thug from the way's yesteryear.. and then there's the newest group, The closest carbon copy of da way it was at its worst. Smack the "followers" around (figuratively if not literally) and send them home if they don't like it. They are taught to actually WORSHIP a very young, inexperienced, *man*. da *great* *manogawd*. Hasn't hit thirty yet.. hasn't experienced life even a quarter way around the block.. and the board, a sad collection of aging ex-wayfers who probably can't afford to retire. The underlying feeling is GREAT resentment for being tossed out of the ministry on their ears.. some by a WOMAN, a usurper. Very, very deep seated bitterness. That's what I read in them.. I'd go on, but it wouldn't be anything I haven't already posted.. but to me, it is very very troubling. You couldn't find a worse pair than those two to be on a board, with arbitrary power over peoples lives. In my opinion. And I've seen the same arrogance in twi in cff. Same pride of "knowing da word" like it hasn't been known.. but they manage to keep some of the arrogance muzzled. I remember a time when they were working on a mission statement. The thought was "everybody is doing something.. what makes us DIFFERENT? What DEFINES us as an ORGANIZATION?" I thought.. "here we go again.. we are starting to put up some of the same detestable boundaries.." and I did say something to that effect.. I have no idea how it turned out. Then there's the River Road "fellowship".. sounds pretty detestable.. and the rood ministries guy.. imo, a real "fruitcake".. am I missing anybody? The h*ndricks organization, I never knew him. Can't say.. But a half a dozen or so of these kind of groups run by former *ministers* who fornicated liberally in the old organization.. It's a living, I guess..

I dunno. Maybe its not that far off.. what if "a woman", "a man" and the "too many ministers" do not exist, existed only in his narrative? Or the woman with fear in her heart and life that lost the child? Wouldn't those be "actual errors" as well as fraud? just a thought..

yeah, it took the lawyers to do it. Considering the general opinion wayfers I knew had of lawyers, it is *interesting* that lawyers ended up having more *scruples* than god's supposed "elect"..

I think for all that money, all they got to show for it was a gold plated turd..

I'd add.. was she WORTH what twi paid? Kinda over-priced, if you ask me.. its another case of *your* abs at work. What did it buy.. well, it bought a cushy job (apparently) for life, and immunity from CRIMINAL prosecution for this kind of filth.. to sit free, on top of the organization.. every whim (or possible lust) satisfied.. I could think of far better uses for several million dollars..

hmm.. adept in lying.. must be one of the new "qualifications" for "leadership" in the church or something.. I must have missed it somewhere.. The ONLY reason she still has a job- MONEY. How many millions did the organization sacrifice to settle the little All*n court case? Money- lawyers- and she had the organizations blind backing. As an organization, I don't think they would have survived the trial. Then there was talk about criminal negligence and such.. and what did the money buy? Practically- it bought them "another day".. and kept a group intact where business could run as USUAL.. I wonder how many staff and "participants" still don't know about these accounts.. They made their intentions well known with the a**ens. Put up with sexual harrasment and/or *rape* as condition of employment, or we will list you mark and avoid, label you as possessed and send you off packing in the middle of the night.. that is the reality of the situation. Then came the lawyers.. Personally, it is hard for me to even imagine someone can be that evil.. but the facts bear it out.

Maybe loy and she were married in a previous life. Looking at both of them together, they kinda look like Ahab and Jezebel, do they not?

and part of *your* *abundant sharing* pays for her salary. Healer of the *ministry*? So far it seems her skill set is limited to being able to pick out targets for the lawyers..

interesting that the queen of Filth who let this *little* matter happen on her watch still reigns over the organization.. same "board member" whose solitary vote sends lawyers screaming at churches and organizations with the slightest resemblance to their precious name..

I wonder who the "many people" happen to actually be..

And I wonder how much of these *little* benefits are reported to the irs.. after working over a few more important jobs, if I were an irs agent, I'd take a close look at the books of a few of the larger (and smaller) offshoots..

hmm. "where's the library".. reminds me of what in my first real hourly job.. that's what they called the bathroom. Had lots of books for reading, during longer visits of sorts..

*Let my people go..* *and who shall go?* *we shall go, with our bikes and wowmobiles, our flocks and herds, our brains and other acquired appendages..*

I'd almost swear the guy on the left is humming to the tune.. *Beautiful Ohio, where the golden brain...*

Hmmmmmm. I wonder if.. anybody's considered strapping one of those big speakers on top of a car, or van. SLOOOOWLY drive down wienerville road, about 6 or 7AM.. playing "beautiful Ohio". The music, the broken down auditorium, trailer park..weed infested fields.. you get the idea.. makes me wonder what way "security" is really protecting from the locals.. and like a scene out of Night of the Living Dead.. zombies, ahem, staffers slowly rise, and erratically make their way through weed infested fields, and oil spattered parking lots to *work* in the auditorium, the osc.. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ * For Sale: Sierpinski Carpets and Gaskets, cheap... *

for others, it provided a path to lack of developing a career, a path to abuse and worse.. the corps for the most part were considered the "cream of the crop". Where did they come from, off the street? did the vicster advertise in the local paper, "wanted. Young men and women for *christian* training *program*. Three years of work/*study(?)* followed by a lifetime of christian servitude. Taking applications now."? no. They were people who supposedly had some kind of *natural* leadership ability. Something *special* to *develop*. They "grew up" in twig.

True.. I'm just thinking, where is the motivation? I believe back in "the day".. "trustees" along with an adoring audience, had motorcoach "privileges".. and more. "Love offerings" above and beyond "abundant sharing" from the "household".. he WAS old enough, and out of the system long enough to figure out pa's carryings on were not exactly the standards of a "great manogawd".. you would think at least. who knows.. maybe at first he thought he could change things. From what I understand, he for the most part succumbed. It is horrifying to think, someone would spend years building professional relationships and a career, to abandon it to go back to da way. Or to drop everything to go back staff on an offshoot. Find it hard, bub? Think three or four years of "professional development" should give you the respect and employment that fifteen years on staff by-passed? I guess it is "easier".. far less work, far less personal development, far less accountability. You've practically got a captive audience.. I suppose there is a certain amount of "security" in it. Far less of a "frightening" "uncontrolled" situation. Wayfers for the most part were taught they had the power to control everything.. money, the weather, health.. Just to me.. its almost the same thing as quitting one's career in finance, and going back to live with dad and mom.. Erkjohn, so you know, you are not the "bub" I am referring to. :)

I'd like to see them try going to grad school at 52 years old.. majoring in something other than aroma therapy or something, that is.. try Real Analysis.. no, you didn't get even half a clue what was coming from the little undergrad intro to real analysis course.. a kid less than half my age gave up.. so one looks at one's options.. try going the *hard* way.. and there are NO GUARANTEES of success.. or.. hmm. what does one do..

I don't think that was entirely it.. with money for nuttin and chicks for free.. I mean, how does one turn down that kind of *offer*? I think the vicster was merely calling the kettle black.. vic was as much if not more the spineless coward.. despite his *great* public persona, I would call him a feeble hearted bastard. Couldn't turn down the *perks* the position had to offer.. my opinion.. son could never live up to what pa thought the man pa ought to be.. make sense? Or am I just rambling..

probably because of the nasal southern monotone drawl that just forces them to sleep providing she even gives long speeches anymore.. *removes scowl from face, replaces with limp smile* *drooling at microphone* *aheeeem.. gawwwwwwwwd bless your lil ol hawts in da name of da lawwwwwd.. your rememmmmber how dock ta viener ville tawwwt us.." I dunno. Perhaps she is a fungus on the body of christ's.. whatever. I'm being kind and measured with my words here..

did you consider another possibility? As in.. things *perhaps* got a little better after the loyster was gently put out on the curb? No loy, no manogawdish "need" for a constant stream of women procured by "staff" and all.. the rest of the *men* shaking in their boots.. did you ever ask ms(?) rivenbark why it took a LAWSUIT naming her as a defendant, before running loy out of town, so to speak?