Ham

It's refreshing to see honest to God effort to improve one's self and others who may want said improvement dismissed with the wave of a papal hand..

From the rants on the tapes, I thought he was furious they were teaching what was supposedly ministry-owned materials. Wouldn't suprise me if they made off with a bunch of material stuff.. but who knows.. I never heard anything to really verify it. I know they had loads of books and stuff in limb bookstores. I know they made off with mailing lists.. pfal being "stolen".. I think he was furious he sold away publication rights to another madman- gear.

Makes one wonder, doesn't it? :)

Partial quote, but the whole thing is just above.. Why is it supposedly good, for the OTHER guy? You know.. the guy going through it? I'll say this.. when they REALLY started putting a lot of the same kind of screws to people out in the twigs, branches.. a lot of them couldn't handle it. As far as question one: I think when they supposedly ran these little programs to "toughen people up", they didn't really end up with tough people, more like people with hard hearts. Hard people. And crushed people. How many times did people sit in corps night, in stupid meetings, and watch while the mogster in charge utterly crushed an individual? Where this is supposed to fit in the category of "Christian character" is beyond my comprehension.. makes me think of the new corpsie most unexcellent adventure.. what are they gonna end up with? As far as #2: I think I was an intelligent, vulnerable person who got conned out of what I really should have been doing in life.

If indeed you think you're recruiting the "best".. and it is an HONORS program.. Honest to God.. what is the real NEED to hold some kind of threat over people to "behave nice" if they are really HONORS "students"??!! Even the military can't summarily throw people out on a whim.. six or eight weeks into boot camp.."well, just go home boys.. we don't need any more soldiers today" I wouldn't send my kids to your church.. for all the wealth of Egypt..

and the other thing "board".. who's idea was it to hold a wild card to dismiss people at the drop of a hat? Somehow, I really don't think it was the kid's..

Those who've stayed in the dark cell well past time they KNEW it was a scam, and actually HAVE options (unlike some with relatives and family still in) remind me of the canibalistic morlocks in Well's "The Time machine".. like.. those on top. I think they've mutated into disgusting, beastial like manipulators, sucking the life out of those under their "charge". They are uglier as each year passes.. Today, I can honestly say I like who I am.. I wonder if they can say the same.

"being the man I knew (in my case know) to be" some of us who have abandoned playing some religous shell game, picked up some real life skills and spirituality are doing just that..

I would rephrase that.. "the greatest learning in forgiving is learning to have the CHARACTER needed not to give someone an excuse not to forgive.." Other words.. don't be a stumbling block. Wanna be a supposed "manogawd"? Keep your hands and privates where they belong.. not matter WHAT. NEVER shake down your congregation for even a tithe.. Don't SELL your rituals.. or religion.. they will turn into snake oil if you do..

Actually, they didn't. Look at Uriah's father in law. He wanted david under the path of a steam roller.. along with not more than a few other relatives.. David made it by the skin of his teeth.. and maybe a TAD of grace. these other overbearing, overdemanding religious con men.. they probably survive only with dumb luck..

Probably the same thing happens even in times of peace. Con, lie to, steal from underlings, "fraternize" with enough of their wives, a general just MIGHT find himself face down in the same predicament.. and all the staffers likely would have an alibi at the time of his not-so glorious "departure"..

well, I hear that if mr "big shot" costs them enough lives and resources, he ends face down in a latrine somewhere.. it's called an old fashioned "fragging".

Some people around here.. one finds it hard debating with them that twi sold snake oil. "of course they didn't sell it. they just accepted *donations*.."

Rascal.. it seems some among us just are intent upon getting kicked again, and again, and again.. some would even go back to see how well they've padded the horses hooves..

What I'd like to know.. was this little road trip before, or after herr doctor bought his doctorate. Anybody know?

I thought they were beating pillows and crying "mommy" practically from day one..

I dunno. Considering the momentus fiasco, prophecy battles and sue me sue you blues they've gone through, I'd say whatever they got from it didn't amount to a hill of beans.. It just seems to me the endorsement from one madman conferred upon another can't really be considered "valid" or anything..

Then there's another "non-denominational" church.. run by a lying, womanizing, weasel. Calls himself a "preacher of righteousness". Screams at the congregation that if they'd give more, gawd would do something.. same kinda authoritarian setup. I don't think he can get voted out. it's a close second to twi.

They did it KNOWINGLY. They KNEW what he did.. rosie admitted under oath. Rascal, maybe that partly answers your question. Is twi worse? One of the local mainstream churches here, around the time loy was handled with kid gloves, they found out, and verified that their minister was a cheating, womanizing weasel. Hmm.. what to do? Give him a little research position at the home office? Cover, hide and spin, and hope the abs doesn't walk out the door? The guy was VERY charismatic. Unlike big forehead, VERY intelligent. Had a big degree, had supporters on the board who really like him, and his charming personality. All that didn't make any difference, they canned his sorry rear. I think he lost everything, pension and all. twi, on the other hand, can't get a grip on who the REAL enemy is.. not the devil, not unproductive followers, or "evil" greasespotters.. It's themselves.

They put the screaming, adulterous, womanizing, abuser of staffer's wives, not to mention what it must have done to the husbands, lying, cheating weasel in charge of RESEARCH? and only cut him loose, when the lawyers could offer no better options? In my opinion, they are filthy by failing to really dissasociate themselves from him. They are rolling in filth.

They haven't denied it, have they? "I'm sowy mah people's.. we was scum sucking enablers and participants in vic and loy's schemes. We PWOMISE to nevah do it again.." how modern day do you need to get say, from 1999 or 2000? when was loy finally ousted? Did they run those who were complicit out of town on a rail? Doubt it. They ran the scumbuckets classes for how long? Last I heard, they still hold on to the names he gave the new classes. I would call it guilt.. by lack of dissasociation.

If you read the above earlier, you may want to read the final edited form

Lessee. the local radio club? Nope.. that never fit the above description.. the Methodist church I attended as a youth? Naw.. Boy scout troup? Nope.. umm.. in fact, the kind of activities documented in the lives of the higher ups in der vey were never even ALLEGED in these little groups I refer to.. even twenty, thirty years later. I don't know how one can excuse acts of barbarity with other acts of barbarity. The only difference with der vey.. it is still a young, power, money, and blood hungry little cult. Compared to other religions, that is.. "what about what THEY did over there.." the characterization really cuts both ways Oldies.. comparing the vey to another group at their worst is pretty effective.

I'll nominate Watered Garden's apt description.. I'm still laughing..

guilding a turd.. :biglaugh: thanks..