Outin88.

Yes, having faith in general promises of the Bible can be different than having faith, trusting in a specific promise from God to specific folks with specific circumstances. I agree. And Raf, I could use a jacket!!!

Well said Sunesis. Ever notice that TWI often replaced the word faith with believe? Mr. Wierwille taught that believing is a verb it connotes action, and he was right, but the word faith is translated faith for good reason. It's the Greek word pistis which is a noun, not a verb. As Sunesis pointed out the simplest definition of faith is trust. When the Bible tells us it's impossible to please God without faith, it means we need to have trust in Him. We can't please him without trusting Him. TWI twisted this to mean Believe, and it was bs. Believing takes place in the mind, and there is no power of your mind outside of your own body. But faith requires trusting in something, for Christians it's God and or the Lord Jesus Christ. See it's not our will be done, it's His will be done. When we were taught to believe for things, wasn't that our will? When we have faith in God, thats His will be done. We trust that He will take care of us, we trust to obey Him and do His will. Rememebr the story of Elijah in I Kings 17, where He tells the people it's won't rain. God tells Elijah to go to the brook and the ravens will feed him, Elijah didn't have to believe for that, God instructed him and when Elijah trusted God's word on that the ravens fed him. See, Elijah trusted God, When the brook dried up, I guess Elijah wasn't believing enough huh! No God told him to go to a widows house and He (God) would make the food last. Elijah trusted God and it happened. Then the Widows son died, Elijah didn't say "tahnks you for raising the son from the dead" with his believing, no he asked God to bring to boy to life and trusted God and God was faithful and brought the boy to life. Yes we can believe God and His promises, but we cannot believe in our believing to make things happen, that kinda cuts God out of the picture, if we can just believe for things. See it's not our mind power via believing in our believing, it's God that instructs us, and when we trust him, God is faithful and fulfills His word. It's God that makes things happen, when we have faith in Him and trust Him not our believing in our believing.

Amen Pond, very well said. Amen to that Mark.

You nailed it Skyrider. I completely agree! Mark, I like what you wrote too, and ex10 well said. The believing in your believing and fear in the heart of that mother doctrines as taught by TWI were bogus. We can believe or have faith in God and his promises, because God is faithful, but we cannot believe to make things happen just because we believe imo. There is no biblical evidence that fear in the heart of mothers causes the death of their child. Or that if we have fear bad stuff will happen, I think we all know that from our experiences. But we do have an adversary that may cause harm to us, and as ex10 said sometimes things happen!

Well said Oak, I wholeheartedly agree! sudossuda, welcome to the cafe. Like ex10, I knew of some of the erroneous doctrines taught by VPW/TWI and some of the adultry etc. but I didn't know the volume of wrong doctrines, plagerism, sex etc. until reading waydale/greasepostcafe and doing some of my own investigation for a few years. I now believe quite a lot of what we were taught and practiced in TWI was wrong, and I believe a lot started with Mr. Wierwille.

"What would bring you the most satisfaction from posting here?" For me it's the satisfaction of contributing or helping someone learn some truth about Jesus Christ and other areas of God's word that TWI taught wrong or didn't teach at all. To see folks free themselves of the bondage of the controlling and not very godly cult called TWI. To help those that have left TWI but are still idolizing Wierwille and his erroneous doctrines to be free from that bondage. I also enjoy some good dialogue and fellowship from posting here, and I've learned from others who post here too. Those are my most satisfying reasons for posting.

Interesting observation Eagle. The Wierwillites, at least most of the one's I've known are very much as you describe, real loving aren't they? Not!

Okay, My Bad! :) I kinda thought you were spoofing Top, but wasn't 100% sure, since you were "thinking out loud". And as ex10 said it's easy to misunderstand. But sadly there are some who post here that still subscribe to that erroneous doctrine. I used your post as a springboard to mention that bogus doctrine, as I've done to other posts in times past. But I have had some PT me asking questions since they still buy into it and want to know why I don't. My hope is that some of the waybrained folks might wake up and learn some truth. Anyway no hard feelings? I hope! Okay, back to the topic of the thread. As you said "According to things I've seen on these threads, it has become as if He doesn't exist." and thats sad too! TWI taught us some stuff about Jesus Christ, but never taught us we can and should have a relationship with him and that we can fellowship with him and that he is an acting Lord, not just our savior, oops there I go ranting again. Sorry. Peace.

Sorry topoftheworld, but that whole "all believing equals receiving" and "fear equals negative believing" doctrine was bogus. If you care to know more just ask, and I'll be happy to share why that doctrine was wrong. You cannot make things happen by believing for them or by having fear. Those were erroneous doctrines we were taught by Wierwille! But, VPW did die of cancer and yet he taught that cancer was a devil spirit!

I noticed this mysef ex10, But to me it's typical of TWI with it's absent Christ doctrine. Did you ever notice the phrase "Lord thy God" does not appear anywhere in the New Testament? Well it does appear in the gospels, but not in the Epistles anywhere! God made Jesus Christ Lord? Acts 2:36 And Philippians chapter 2:9-11 says; "9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. " Jesus Christ is lord to the glory of God. Yet, in TWI he wasn't even mentioned at the AOS production, it was the "minister" that made intercession with God, Jesus was knowhere to be found in that pathetic show! Not much of a Christian organization when they consider Christ absent? Okay, I'm done with my rant!

Justloafing, you ask some good questions! Personally I think VPW was very into money, he wanted to buy buildings, jets, motorcycles etc. He wanted to look important and be powerful and IMO that required some big money. With Craig, I think he was more about power more then the money, and obviously didn't know how to handle that. Based on what I've read on all of Martindales moves with TWI I think he went off the deep end, or as Groucho said his cheese slipped off the cracker!

I think we all would like that question answered, I've heard different theories but I really don't know, and as EX10 said, we won't know for sure in this lifetime. I heard Dale Sides say in his taped sharing called "Jesus Christ Judgement on the Way international" that VP was given a genuine ministry but became under the influence of demons. He also said the audible voice VP heard was not Jesus Christ on this sharing. Well I don't know if Dale is correct or not, but he could be. On the other side, where some believe he just conned us, I'm not sure of that either. From WW's thread "The way living in wonderland" We learned that young VPW was a bully, a rebel, a showoff and the towns folk who knew VP thought it was a joke that he went into seminary, since it was so uncharacteristic of VP. VPW admits in the book that he lost faith during seminary and admits he didn't believe in the Bible. He tells us that he did the opposite of what the Church leaders said being rebelous and when confronted he just yells at them, acting as a bully. Then in 1942 he meets Rosilie Rinker who gets him to really believe in the Bible and read it instead of reading around it. He tells God that if he really wants VP to serve him that he needs a sign. Well According to VPW's account God made in snow. But the weather reports don't show snow for that day. Well as you know VP decided to go into business for himself plagerizing various people and copying the bulk of B.G. Leonards class then adding from others such as Bullinger to it. Is this what God taught him to do? I tend to doubt it! Did God truly teach VP the word like it hadn't been known since the 1st century? I find it difficult to believe God would wait 2000 years before VP came along to teach the word. I believe there has been many people over the centuries that prayed to God for answers, why would God only choose VPW? Sorry Justloafing, I have more questions then answers concerning VP. But I do believe we were taught some truth of God's word and I do believe we were conned to a certain degree.

Without question the scripture in the bible contains truth, revelation and words of God. But is our modern bible the word of God? in part yes and in part no. what I'm saying Johniam, is that that our modern English translation of the Bible is not the complete word of God, but does contain words of God. I believe there has been some error that has crept into our modern translation, those who decided what books should be a part of the canon may have left out a book or two, I'm really not sure, but I believe the catholics have a few extra books added to thier bible which are not in the protestant bible translations. The scripture in the bible does reveals Jesus Christ the living word of God, who gives us holy spirit that will help us have a greater understanding of God's will. John 14:26 "26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

Wierwille taught us that "the word fits with a mathematical exactness and a scientific precision" He said "it's the word, the word and nothing but the word" but he was speaking of the Bible only, as I understood him. And of course he then interpreted it for us. IMO, as Coolwaters said, the Word of God is Jesus Christ, not the Bible. The Bible definately contains words from God and truths of God, but imo it doesn't always fit like a hand in a glove or an exact scientific precision etc. it's through the holy spirit that we can gain an understanding of scripture, of God, His will and of His son, the Lord Jesus Christ who always does the fathers will. Check out these scriptures; John 14:15-17; 26 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 16:12-15 12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. Ephesians 1:13 -17 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory. 15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 1 Corinthians 2:9-14 9However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"[a]— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I think so, here's something interesting, check it out. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/panin.htm Good post CoolWaters. Here's another interesting link; http://100prophecies.org/prophecy.htm

I take that as a good sign too. CFF is fortunate to have you and your hubby.

I hear ya Eagle, I've run into that myself. But It's not all offshoots that act this way, at least from my experience. LMCI (Dale Sides) started out praising Wierwille in 94, but by 96 was talking about how many if not most of Wierwille's doctrines and practices were wrong. He now teaches almost everything different then Wierwille/TWI. CES started out talking about Wierwille's wrong doctrines sexcapades etc. Which helped me break free of idolizing him. And motivated me to study on my own to see if these things were so. But maybe they have changed since my involvement, I really don't know and at this point, I really don't care. But I was involved in two groups that did and maybe still highly esteem Wierwille, CFF and Geers group. And it's quite possible they have changed since my involvement. I don't know about the other offshoots. I did know of some hardcore Wierwillites that were involved with CFF and Geer associated groups in years past. However, reading Catcups post makes me think CFF may have changed. At least it sounds like Catcups fellowship has grown past hanging on all of Wierwille's doctrines, and I applaud them for this. Hopefully all of CFF has stopped teaching his erroneous doctrines and idolizing him as the MOG. I agree with you Eagle, that church is better then the offshoots, at least for me it is. But those who are still "waybrained" may benefit from some of the offshoots that will teach differently then Wierwille/TWI, yet still have a sense of familiarity to many of his doctrines. It helped me, I like to refer to it as a halfway house to "de-waybrain". But It's sad that some Christians can get so arogant and prideful towards their group. As Rascal said it's silly. So hang in there Eagle, many of us have been and are still dealing with these type of arogant and prideful people, someday maybe they will grow up in Christ and act in a more loving manner.

Should we go back? In 1988 just after I left, I thought I might go back if TWI ever corrected their erroneous doctrines and practices, and truly started loving God and it's followers. But I have yet to see this, and in fact since leaving, I discovered that TWI was worse then I even imagined. As a Christian, I'm commanded to love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength, Mark 12:30 (NIV) '30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' It's one thing to follow a group like TWI ignorantly believing they are a godly organization teaching the truth of God's word, like I did in the past, and like I believe some of the followers do today. But If I knowingly followed such a corrupt group as TWI that teaches wrong doctrines and has hurt so many, supporting them finacially and otherwise, how is this loving to God? Now I honestly have not found any organization, i.e. a church or offshoot that I can agree with 100%, so for me I keep independant. I do occassionally attend church, to fellowship, pray and worship God with other Christians, but I refuse to join 100% since I don't agree with all their doctrines, but at least they don't kick you out, at least the churches I've attended. And I have supported some churches in areas such as feeding the homeless, or missionary work, but I don't soley support just one church or organization finacially or otherwise. I have also on occassion bought some some tapes or books from some of the offshoots, and have given finacially to some of them as well, but will not completely support them either. At this time, I believe this is what God wants from me. If your only eating off the plate of one ministry or minister, then you not getting a balanced diet, spiritually speaking, IMO. And any organization, like TWI that teaches it's followers to only follow them and their doctrines is not godly. So as far as going back to TWI, well, now that I know about TWI's wrong doctrines and practices, IMO going back and supporting TWI would not be the most loving thing I can do for God.

Here ya go Rascal; Galatians 5:19-25 (NIV) 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. BTW, you can get the online version of the NIV Bible here; http://www.ibs.org/niv/

Thank you jkboehme.

I hear ya Belle, for me I find many of the posters I disagree with sometimes entertaining to read. Gems I might miss would be things like Jesus coming back teaching out of pfal, good for a laugh anyway. If I don't want to read someone's post I just go past it, but I do sometimes skim posts to at least get the context of the conversation in the thread. Many times when I skip a post, someone I enjoy reading has replied to that person and I end up going back to read the poster I don't enjoy reading, plus I like a balanced discussion. If we all just agreed on a topic, it would be boring, don't you think? Even if the person is completely wrong in their point, it makes a better discussion getting others to post with more details to make the correct points, at least IMO. So I decided not to use the ignore option. But there are some nasty posters too, that usually have no valid points and just like to call people names or make fun of or harass those that disagree with them, so I do understand why you like that option.

Groucho is right! When I was an apprentice corpse, we were always sent on witnessing assignments and were told we had to sign up at least one person for da class or we couldn't go in residence. Well, it was getting late in the year and I hadn't signed anyone up. I really didn't want to fail, I thought desperate times called for desperate measures. I'm ashamed to admit this but I went to a bar, found a not too attractive woman and asked her to dance, then started taking her out. In case your wondering I didn't sleep with her, but she was infatuated enough with me that a few weeks later she signed up for the class.

Has this book been published? And if so, where can I order a copy? BTW WW, David Anderson would be familiar with much of this timeframe, he doesn't post very often but you might try emailing him. Just a thought.

Heres some info from the archives, This covers a wide range of years, but theres some good info on the early years. I know WW has see this, but there's some newbies that may not have. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...2268entry2268

I hear ya Belle. TWI taught us the Jesus Christ was absent. And while he may be absent physically on earth, at times, if he chooses , he is not absent spiritually. The Bible make it clear we can and should have fellowship with Jesus Christ (I John 1:3) Stephen prayed/talked with Jesus Christ. (Acts 7:59,60) Jesus Christ is the head of the body, not the BOT's of TWI (Ephesians 1:20-23) Jesus Christ is our mediator and intercedes for us with God (Hebrews 7:24 and 25; Romans 8:34) Jesus Christ strengthens us (Philippians 4:13) Jesus Christ gives revelation (Galatians 1:11-12) How can we not communicate with Jesus Christ if he's doing all these things? How can he be absent? Unfortunately when your taught about an absent Christ, who is supposed to be our Lord, people in TWI had a tendency to replace his lordship with some "leader" in TWI.