Outin88.

Right you are Templelady. I was going to a church in Phoenix, where the head Pastor was asked to take a leave of absence because their board of trustees felt he was wrong in an area. Their board of trustees were made up of elders who felt he was wrong, they didn't kick him out, just asked him to take some time away from his duties for a while. Imagine if TWI's BOT's were accountable to a group of believers, who were acting on God's will. Maybe TWI could have been fixed.

Themex, Thats an Interesting question. Jesus Christ selected 12 followers that lived with him and were taught by him to become diciplened followers or disciples of his as their Lord. Wierwille made up the way corps patterning it after the marine corps, at least some what. He liked the way marine corps were "gung ho" and would follow orders of their leadership. He wanted believers to follow him with that type of attitude. I just saw on the news, where they interviewed some marines that lost limbs while fighting in Iraq. The reporter asked one marine who lost some fingers if he would go back to Iraq to coninue fighting, he said (I'm paraphrasing here) yes. They asked him if he thought the U.S. should still be there, he said it's not for me to decide but if my leadership tells me to go then I'll follow their orders. The Way corps did much the same with TWI leadership, just following orders. But one major problem with that is that if the top leadership in TWI becomes corrupt, which I believe has been and probably still is the case, then following their orders may not be God's will. See, we all are supposed to follow our Lord, Jesus Christ, who always does the Fathers will. As long as way corps are made to just follow orders from the top leaders without being allowed to follow what God's word says (correctly interpreted) or follow Jesus Christ's direction, imo it can't be fixed.

Hi Free Soul, I can relate to much of what you shared. Those people who "were spouting their poison" and spoke "words that came from the mouths of 'God's people' could make me feel so bad" IMO were not representing the true God and father of Jesus Christ and they will be judged for harmful words spoken and the wrongs they have committed. Matthew 12:33-37 (NIV) 33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." You said, "I keep getting the nagging notion that I need to go to church somewhere." Again I can relate, it took me years before I'd even consider going to a church. Give it some time, don't rush, God loves us whether we attend a church or not, whether we read our Bible or not, whether we pray or not. For me, I needed some time without church, fellowship or believer meetings. I just hung out with my family who offered unconditional love which was healing. Maybe thats what you need at this time. When I did decide to check out church, I found a few churches were not to my liking, and a few that I now occassionally attend. Mostly I like the praise and worship part of the churches I attend. Their teachings, well, I don't always agree with, but most of the time they are edifying. But I'm not going to be religious about going, I go on my terms when I feel like it. When you are ready, if you still feel you want to try attending a church, maybe check out some different churches and see if you like what you find, but please don't feel guilty about not going, and don't feel obligated to go, if you choose not to. You mentioned "No doubt reading the Bible would be the best thing to read, but I can't bring myself to do it. I get angry. Betrayal & anger washes over me like a shower. " Once again I can relate. I stopped reading the Bible for a period of time, but wanted to, except every time I read it I was reminded of TWI and what they taught, so I had a difficult time reading. Someone suggested to me that I put aside my KJV Bible which had all my TWI notes and get another version to read. I bought an NIV Bible and enjoy the modern english. At first I primarily read the gospels and the Psalms, avoiding the Church Epistles for a while. Now I read it whereever and whenever I want. "Christ in you. God loves me. It sounds good, & I want to believe it. But I don't trust." I've been there too. Give it time, let yourself heal.

Goey, That picture says it all, lol. And I agree 100% with what you wrote. Thanks for the laugh!

TWI "leadership" reminds me of the following verses; Matthew 23:1-15 (NIV) 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.' 8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Well, honestly I haven't been involved with the RC church many years so, I'll say it's possible they may still put some fear in people. However, I do know people that went back and were welcomed lovingly. As for TWI, there have been many testimonies of people, Catcup comes to mind, where TWI told them bad things would happen if they left "the household" of TWI. So I'm not assuming here. People have to decide not to believe TWI's fear filled bogus prophecies in order to leave. When I left there was no real fear to leave, in the earlier days, TWI did welcome some folks back that had left, so maybe your thinking of those days, but from the testimonies I've seen at the cafe in the past few years, people are afraid to leave and afraid to look at the internet, and afraid to talk with us who have left.

Oldies, Yes it's easy to judge a man in a thread like this, but this man, VPW claimed to be the MOG, he started a cult that all of us were involved in and most of feel we were dupped out of our money and time given to this cult. Many got hurt because of this. Some gave up college or careeers for this cult. Some ostracized thier friends and families because of TWI. Many are still being hurt because of this organization Wierwille started and some still blindlly follow his erroneous doctrines. I applaud threads like this that expose the deceit. Maybe someone who still idolizes VPW as the mog will read this thread and stop idolizing him. I don't know if you just like playing "devils advocate" to "stir the pot" or your just being stuborn. But the facts brought forth in this forum are clear. And while I admit VPW did teach some accurate Bible, he also taught several erroneous doctrines, some of which have been harmful to his followers. It's been reported many times that he committed adultry, was a drunk, abused people, taught tithing and kept peoples money for himself, slandard people, allowed people to idolize him, was very egotistical. The verses that come to my mind is I Corinthians 5:9-11 (NIV) " 9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. "

CoolChef, I was raised in the RC church, so I know about their doctrines and practices many of which I disagree with. Myself personally, I would not go back. Yes, I agree Oldies, but consider that folks in TWI are taught to be afraid to leave "the household" because something bad might happen to them, as opposed to other churches that teach and practice love without putting fear in people if they choose to leave. And most churches, including the RC church will welcome you back with open arms, thats the loving and godly thing to do. Does TWI do this? I wonder how many would stand with TWI if they were not taught to be afraid to leave?

I stand by my statement. TWI claimed to send wows to locations and with others by revelation, Do you think that guy who was killed by his wow family "leader" was sent by revelation? I think it was a carnal decision. Or how about the 10 years spiriual growth they claimed, tell it to the 4 wows that were killed by a drunk driver! I went wow, and I was blessed to preach the word to people, but I certainly wouldn't say I grew 10 years spiritually. I definately learned some life lessons and matured a bit emotionally and yes some spiritually but not 10 years worth. And how about the poor wows that had to live on macaroni and cheese to survive, now there's an abundant life! Where was TWI with finacial support? Selfish comes to my mind! Churches support their missionaries finacially, why didn't TWI? Even just a little would have been nice. On a previous post I mentioned one of my wow sisters was sent home, TWI offered nothing finacially to send her home, we had to call her parents and ask them to pay for a plane ticket. As Belle pointed out TWI used folks who had a heart for God to gain recruits and their money.

You got that right! They acted very carnally and selfishly using followers to recruit for then without much thought to their safety. For an organization that claimed to be God's ministry and send out wows via revelation, being human and making mistakes which hurt many just doesn't cut it with me. They should have said, your on your own, we won't be supporting you finacially and were sending you places and with others by our five senses, not revelation, so good luck!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes going wow was voluntary, but TWI did little to support or prepare those that went out. I tried to make a point that when Jesus sent out the disciples, they were disciplened, mature believers and that Jesus gave them power over demons, and to heal, and to perfomr miracles. Churches send out missionaries with finacial and emotional support, TWI simply trough together people and in areas that were sometimes dangerous without financial support. How many stories have we heard about wow's eating macaroni and cheese or pb&j sandwitches most of the year just to survive. How many wows ended up in a bad part of a city because the aprtments were affordable there? How many young, immature beleivers niavely signed up because they got caught up in the hype at the rock? I caravanned on the way to the rock some believers, one was a young believer that had just took the class a few months earlier, he was 19 or 20 and had never been away from home. I could tell he was very nervous and sure enough I heard he left the wow field within a few months. Why wasn't there better training and screening of those that wanted to go? How many people got hurt because TWI didn't screen people's emotional spiritual and physical state? I mentioned in another post that all those that live godly will suffer persection, whether they go wow or not, but TWI fluffed over that with there all believing equals recieving doctrine, hey just believe and you'll have an abundant life. Something bad happened, well he wasn't believing enough. Nonsense. And of course we were taught to follow TWI's leaders decisions, since they were so spiritual. Not! Yes we volunteered, but it was for TWI and it was in their name, and if they were truly a godly and spiritual organization they would have done a better job instead when .... happened, they blamed the individual for not believing enough, or some such nonsense.

Samuri brings up some good points. I was told the wow program was patterned somewhat by when Jesus sent out disciples, but Jesus gave them power and authority to heal and over devils etc. And these were discipled followers of Jesus, they were mature believers. Luke 9:1,2 (NIV) "1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick." I'm also aware that those who live godly in Christ will be persecuted. II Timothy 3 10-12 (NIV) "10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." Unfortunatley TWI taught us that "all believing equals receiving" and that we would have power for abundant living to live in prosperity and good health. So we naively thought we could do anything with our believeing. These doctrines are wrong imo, we can believe God when God tells us, but beleiving in our beleiving is erroneous. We can't believe for curtains to turn red just because we say so, imo. We can believe God when He gives us revelation and instructions, like Elijah did. I Kings 17:2-5 (NIV) "2 Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah: 3 "Leave here, turn eastward and hide in the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan. 4 You will drink from the brook, and I have ordered the ravens to feed you there." 5 So he did what the LORD had told him. He went to the Kerith Ravine, east of the Jordan, and stayed there. 6 The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning and bread and meat in the evening, and he drank from the brook." God tells Elijah to go to the brook, what was the believing action of Elijah? go to the brook. God told Paul not to go to Jerusalem, what is the believing action? Don't go, right? See, it's not our will be done, it's His will be done. We simply believe God when he tells us. But to believe in our believing can get us in some trouble. "Thank you God for the car I don't have", I'm beleiving, so you have to deliver! "I'm going to go to Alabama and I'm believing you will prosper me there". It's got to happen because of my believing, right? Wrong, not if it's not God's will. Sorry, that is an erroneous doctrine TWI taught. And a lot of people got hurt because of it. I heard Dale Sides say they God told him not to accept an assignment, but he followed TWI's orders instead and said it almost cost him his life! Oh but it was his believing or lack there of, right? Wrong! I wonder how many folks had the thought not to go wow or go to a certain area, but the "leaders" told them it was where they needed to go and caused hurt or even death. Wrong doctrine leads to wrong practice, leads to people getting hurt.

The Wow program was nothing more then a recruiting tool where TWI used us to recruit for them. I honestly was blessed to witness the word to people and sign them up for the class, but we payed our own way with no finacial support from TWI, we followed their program believing that the promise of 10 years spiritual growth and have an abundant life. TWI did deceive us into thinking it was by revelation where we went and with whom we'd be living with. When I was getting ready to go wow, I had saved $1000 and it was sugessted by my "leadership" that I only take $400 or go to Alaska or Hawaii. I decided I wanted to go to Alaska. When I went in the tent to sign up at the rock, I sat with D@n@ A. When I said I'd like to go to Alaska, he immediately brought his brother S.A. the limb coordinator of AK at the time. He asked me a few questions, one was what type of work I did. I said I had worked with Mainframe computers, so he said Juneau would be a good place for me as that was the State capitol and would have those type of comupters. Guess where I was sent? Yup, Juneau. Did I find work with computers there? No. There was no work to be found in that field. I mostly worked in a pizza parlor. I'm not upset over this, but I don't see any revelation in it. I didn't have bad year either, in fact it was pretty good, but not without incedents. One of my wow sisters who had been in TWI for several years and in the college div. was emotionally unstable imo, she had a "hair-trigger" temper and would "fly off the handle" at the least littlest things. She would slam doors, throw things and stomp around the house screaming at the rest of us for insginificant things mostly due to her imagination. It was very difficult living with her. One day she bought a gun, we all raised an eyebrow to that but she was allowed to keep it, why I don't know. A few weeks later, in another emotional rage, she was threatening to kill herself with it, but the gun jammed so she threw it at the wall in a fit of rage, where it stuck in the pannelling. Amazing knowone was hurt or killed. Well the limb leader said to send her home, when we called her parents to come and get her, we described her behavior to her Dad, he said something like, "oh she's always been like that". Another believer in town who had been in the college div with her said she was like that in there as well! Where was the revelation in putting this woman with us? Or even sending her out wow to begin with? Where was the screening for this woman's emotional state? TWI put her and us in a dangerous situation imo.

Whoa, Thats quite a difference from what VPW taught that the word fits like a hand in a glove etc. in TWI 1. Many of Mr. Wierwille's doctrines were erroneous, but at least for me, for a time, made some sense. Jesus said that Truth will set you free. He also said God's Word is truth! Therefore wrong doctrine puts people in bondage, at least to some degree! And that leads to wrong practice. I wouldn't have lasted an hour in TWI 2 if the doctrines were a "a mishmash of crap with no answers". I'm glad your out of that insanity Bramble.

I was there at that Massachusetts limb meeting when they gave Tony Collins a wow pin. They also brought Joyful noise in and made a big deal that Tony was getting this pin. Being a "Respecter of persons" is exactly what I was thinking at the time. Oakspear said; "What went on here? Why did Tony Collins get a WOW pin?" I was told he did some kind of "special athletic wow program", because he was a pro football player and could not take time off from the season they made a special exception for him. Wasn't that special! <_< I wondered back then and still do, exactly what he did as a special wow. Can you say "Respecter fo Persons"? Oh but it helped further the ministy.

I left becuase I believe God was working in my heart to do so. Since that wasn't a catagory listed, I selected "Doctrine". Wrong doctrine leads to wrong practice, and I saw quite a bit of both, which I believe grieves God! For me leaving TWI was not an easy decision, but gradually my wife and I decided it was what we had to do. Thoughout my time in TWI, I saw several red flags which I ignored, but in the late 80's those flags became impossible for us to ignore. First Pop was read causing folks in my area to be confused, upset, sometimes angry and questioning. About six months later John Schoenheit was fired for writing a biblical research paper showing that Adultry is a sin! Which caused more folks to be upset, confused, angry and questioning. A short time after that Ralph D. resigned. We were told to stay away from him. Words like Possessed and out of fellowship were spoken regarding him. Having been a twig coordinator in Massachussetts during Ralph's years as the limb/region coordinator, I got to know, trust and love the man. So this was very upsetting for me and many folks in my area were upset, confused, angry and had more questions then answers. Some corps in my area decided to visit Ralph and hear what he had to say, but being a good "waybrained" follower I stayed clear of him for a while at first. I spoke with a friend who saw Ralph and he told me some things that seemed unbelievable. Eventually, I felt a tug from God and did go and hear what Ralph had to say. Ralph shared on some erroneous doctrines as being taught, and shared that the BOT and Geer had been confronted to change, but they refused. Ralph told how he confronted both LCM and VPW on the adultry going on. He spoke about a suicide by a women over the adultry issue. Ralph said he feared for his life while at HQ and was kept guarded, not being allowed to leave his trailer at HQ after he resigned. All this was a lot to take in at the time and my wife and I, after much prayer and discussion, felt that since the BOT's were confronted that they would change. We decided not to leave at that time and were believing that the ministry to heal. A month or so later we received and read the 37 page letter from Jal, Ralph et. al. Now we thought TWI would finally change for the better. Next we received a tape from Geer and Loy, confronting the letter. The one thing that stands out on that tape was LCM admitting he hadn't turned back to the one true God. Right after Jal and the others were fired. Next Sue PXXrce came to our area and we decided to hear what she had to say, she shared more erroneous doctrines that TWI was teaching, including the the athletes of the spirit, idolitry of VPW. Letters and tapes were being sent around from various believers talking about the problems in TWI and some of the wrong doctrines and practices, giving us more food for thought. Then a week later Jal came to our area, and shared more horror stories and wrong doctrintes as taught by TWI, he also showed where Geer was off the word and was also a part of the adultry going on in TWI. My wife and I with group of believes mostly corps got together to work the word and discuss what Ralph, Jal, Sue P. and others were sharing and spent months researching the Word to see if these things were so. And yes there was, in our opinion, based on our own biblical research many wrong doctrines and practices. The Limb Coordinator in New Hampshire, S.M. whom we were fairly close to was ordered by the BOT's to get rid of (from the bookstore) all tapes, books ect which Ralph and Jal were involved in. He just gave them away to anyone who wanted them. A short time after he was fired for doing that. My wife and I spent time praying and discussing with others and decided that TWI was not changing for the better, but getting worse. We felt God didn't want us supporting an organization where leaders practiced and taught Adultry, taught erroneous doctrines and fired anyone who disagreed with them. We felt TWI was spiritually inept. We decdied that if the leadership of TWI would repent and correct the wrong doctrines and practices that we would once again stand and support them. After 17 years of being out, I see no evidence of change for the better, quite the opposite, IMO they became more evil. And I believe God is grieved.

I thought TWI would self destruct by the early 90's.... :huh: Unfortunately, as you mentioned shortfuse, there are those that believe TWI's lies like it's satan trying to destroy the ministry via lawsuits. Or we "cop-outs" are possed or some such nonsense! speak the truth in love to those that still stand with the cult, maybe they'll wake up to the truth and leave. Thats probably the best we can do to help "speed along the process".

How sad! :(

Welcome to the Cafe Confused! I believe we were taught some correct doctrine and some incorrect. By "operate" do you mean manifestations as taught by TWI? I do speak in tongues occassionally, is that what you mean? Or do you mean principles like tithing and all believing equals receiving, both doctrines as taught by TWI are bogus imo based on my study of scripture. God wants us to give, but the Old Testament law of tithing was addressed to Israel and is not addressed to Christians imo, and Believing God and His promises, we can receive, but believing in our believing, using our mind power, I no longer buy into! If you want me to be more specific on these doctrines, just ask. "Was your expereince as bad as other religious associations?" Worse, TWI is a legalistic cult. While I have yet to find a church, offshoot or any religious organization that I agree 100% with the doctrines, I've found most churches I've checked out to be much more loving with a lot less bondage then TWI.

Okay Mike, Mr. Wierwille did give some loose warnings. What I mean by "loose warning" is where VPW said something like, this could happen if, or unless he rises up, those type of warnings anyone can make. God clearly told Samuel that certain things would absolutely happen. Thats the type of warning I'm talking about. But irrigardless, TWI was and is not a kingdom, and VPW/Martindale were not kings. TWI was supposed to be a Christian organization, a part(s) of the body of Christ who is the king. But what were we taught by TWI about Jesus Christ? that he was absent! Which is NOT true. Jesus Christ is the head of the body, he is King. He is not absent! On a previous post I said it's possible Wiewille received revelation at some point in his life, and I mean that, but I doubt it applies to the decision of installing Martindale. Okay, you say the decision wasn't by revealtion that he was installed by a vote of the BOT's. But VPW was supposed to be the MOG and claimed he heard from God everyday, yet wouldn't God have told him not to install Martindale? Mike, I know you sincerly believe VPW was the MOG, but even Mr. Wierwille taught sincerity is no guarantee for truth.

Mike, Ah nevermind, I'm too tired toinight.

I heard Walter Cummins and Ralph D. were in the running more then jal. But I seriously doubt it was any heavy revy involved in the decision.

I've been thinking and praying on my previous posts regarding Mr. Wierwille and if he ever received revelation. I'll say that it's possible he had received revelation at times in his life, just as it is for all of us. What came to mind was a story by LindaZ who mentioned, (and I'm recalling from memory here so feel free to correct me on details Linda), that she prayed for answers to learn about God, when a person witnessed to her, then the next day she saw him drunk off his @zz babling incoherently. Even those that are out to lunch most of the time, if God wants to communicate with them, and they are willing to follow His directions, they can get revelation, at least I think it's possible. The high priest of Israel who presided over Jesus crucifixion received rev and prohecied. Here are the verses; John 11:49-52 (NIV) "Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, 'You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.' 51He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one." So even though Wierwille did a lot of bad stuff, and I still think he conned us at times, I'll say it's possible, that there were times that maybe he did get some rev from God. That doesn't mean I don't question if he did or not, my point is that it's possible.

"Personally, I question whether Wierwille ever got revelation from the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Though it's possible." While I agree that there were some sweet fellowships, and some accurate Bible taught in TWI, I believe it was God that made it happen in spite of Mr. Wierwille! I'll bet there were folks involved with Jim Jones that said similar things before they drank the cool aid! Sorry Oldies, I'm still questioning! By the way, regarding Wierwilles heavy revy on his selection of Martindale, you used Saul as an example, but if you read I Samuel chapter 8, you'll see where God had Samuel warn the Israelites about the bad things their king would do. I don't recall any such warning regarding Martindale.

You have a point Oldies. Personally, I question whether Wierwille ever got revelation from the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Though it's possible. I think he may have chosen Martindale because he was college educated, had coordinated the Way Corps, had ability to speak publicly, and because he was a brown nose. On the one hand, I'm gald Martindale was his choice, had he picked someone stronger, who wasn't an adulterer, we might all still be involved with that cult. But on the other hand, I'm sad so many got hurt because of Martindale and his reign of terror. So yes, it's possible God gave Wierwille revelation to select Martindale, but I highly doubt it.