What The Hey

Some people will never get a clue OM. No true critic of VPW will ever begin to appreciate that fact, anymore than the true pessimist who insists that the glass half full of water is still empty.

In one thread [on plagiarism I believe] it was said, The accusation of plagiarism is an extremely complicated and baffling proposition the critics are making. The critics want people to believe VPW was a shoddy and incompetent biblical scholar so he “ripped-off” teachings and doctrines from other authors (attempting to show that he plagiarized them word for word) but at the same the critics will not admit the authors he “supposedly stole” from were doctrinally wrong themselves - but rather their teachings and doctrines are biblically accurate and orthodox. Their venom toward VPW has only blinded them to their dichotomy. Ever wonder why the same critics don’t bother to declare the original gospel writers of holy writ were incompetent and likewise failed to properly document their sources? Now that would be a more valid argument rather then bothering with the writings of VPW. God forbid one should attack an original writer of the holy writ though, as today it’s only plausible and feasible to do so with a contemporary commentator on the scriptures. Take for example John’s bold declaration of Jesus’ work and ministry recorded in the gospel of John 21:25. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Let’s consider these facts. Jesus could only be at one place at one time. Likewise he could only reach, teach and minister to a limited number of people considering he had to travel by boat or by donkey or had to walk in order to reach them. His life and ministry was cut short and was extremely brief. Just with those facts about Jesus’ life to work from, John must have been an extremely lazy and incompetent gospel writer not to properly document and record the “many things” Jesus had done. When one considers the brevity of Jesus’ life, it’s hard to assume even a short book could have ever been written about the “many things” Jesus did. OK then. John was not only incompetent in the proper documenting and recording of the works of his Lord Jesus, but we also see he had the audacity to exaggerate the facts and boldly declare the WHOLE WORLD could not contain the books that should be written! Imagine that! What total and complete incompetence, as well as arrogance on top of it from one of Jesus’ own disciples! I can’t speak for you, but it’s extremely difficult for me to believe Christianity is in a pickle and VPW’s character as a Christian is invalid because he failed to properly cite his sources. Why don’t the critics consider that Jesus’ own disciples couldn’t properly record and document the facts as they were? Oh, they can’t do that - that would be blasphemous you know. Apparently Jesus’ own disciples not only failed to properly record and document the facts as they were, but they also had the audacity to exaggerate the facts as they were! Is that what you believe about the disciples of the Lord? If so, then one has no justification to criticize VPW for improper documentation, although apparently many of the facts the critics make regarding VPW’s character are certainly exaggerated. (Perhaps I should copyright this before a “wolf” comes along to chop it up and plagiarize it without my knowledge and permission. After all, I have my rights to protect too - don’t you know.)

I can't pretend to say I know much about witches or spells or the like to comment much on the quote above, but I think we all know people who claim to be leaders but are nothing more than clowns. One doesn't have to read through their letters or listen to them much to realize these clowns are hell bent on imposing their will on others. They just use people. That's all they can - and that's all they will ever do. Make no mistake about it; you are absolutely of no value to them unless they can impose their will on you. If you refuse and stand up to them then you are either thrown out or you are asked to leave. Don't ever go thinking they will be polite about it, because it's not a fellowship anymore than a church. People, I'm afraid the fact of the matter today is; the Christian church has become nothing but a god-damn circus! I think we are being too polite calling them clowns. The truth is: they are crooks! A clown who refuses to change is nothing but a crook, and they certainly have no intention about changing themselves. Oh well. What can or could one ever expect to find in a circus anyway; except a bunch of clowns and con artists out working the crowd.

Wherefore I give you to understand that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3. Says it clear enough for me.

Frankly speaking, No. Being on the cover a magazine doesn't qualify a person being born again of the wrong seed. However a person confessing Satan as their lord, well now that sounds more like a story for the magazine!

You'll have exactly what you say you have. Believing is not governed by what others say, but in and by what you say. It doesn't matter one iota what others have to say to it, but by what you say to it. That is the law of believing.

All the MOG's borrow from one another and take from one another without giving the other MOG credit - at least to the other MOG's satisfaction - even when they do. Some MOG's don't even recall just from who or from where they picked their stuff up! That's why the plagarism charge goes along with the territory of being a very highly successful, charismatic MOG - especially when a lot of $$$ are involved. If you think otherwise you're either deluded, naïve or both. The plagarism charge is one "less charismatic" MOG's pi$$ a$$ ($$$ properly supplied) way at their attempt to appear superior in front of someone who is a "more charismatic" MOG. Sure - there are people who really think they are "enlightening" others by advancing and pushing their tired, worn out argument forward. If you ask me, this is one sermon the church would be better off :sleep1: through. When it comes to the Word of God, none of them really have anything original to say (or write) about it anyway. Carry on, ya-all.

What I'm talking about is how a cheesy sci-fi film like Star Wars mimics life: specifically regarding one's perception of good and evil and how one changes their perception whenever power (knowledge) has been/is being denied them. Consider the dialog between the Chancellor and Anakin for example: [From: Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith] Supreme Chancellor: Remember back to your early teachings. "All who gain power are afraid to lose it." Even the Jedi. Anakin Skywalker: The Jedi use their power for good. Supreme Chancellor: Good is a point of view, Anakin. The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power. Anakin Skywalker: The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inward, only about themselves. Supreme Chancellor: And the Jedi don't? Anakin Skywalker: The Jedi are selfless... they only care about others. Supreme Chancellor: Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"? Anakin Skywalker: No. Supreme Chancellor: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. Anakin Skywalker: He could actually save people from death? Supreme Chancellor: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. Anakin Skywalker: What happened to him? Supreme Chancellor: He became so powerful... the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. It's ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself. Anakin Skywalker: Is it possible to learn this power? Supreme Chancellor: Not from a Jedi.

General Grievous: But the loss of Count Dooku? Darth Sidious: His death was a necessary loss. Soon I will have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful. Anakin Skywalker: Something's happening. I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more. But I know I shouldn't. [Later:] Obi-Wan: You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind until now... until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy. Anakin Skywalker: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire. Obi-Wan: Your new Empire? Anakin Skywalker: Don't make me kill you. Obi-Wan: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic... to democracy! Anakin Skywalker: If you're not with me, you're my enemy. Obi-Wan: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must. Anakin Skywalker: You will try. [they fight]

Count Dooku: I've been looking foward to this. Count Dooku: Good. Twice the pride, double the fall. Count Dooku: I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate. You have anger. But you don't use them.

That's one way they made up for a lousy summer . . .

That's precisely the question I was asking pinklady, so why are you asking me? Ask her - not me.

Just one question - Why? (As in: Why bother?)

:unsure:You SAW the boogy man in the closet? . . . I dunno . . . it sure is awfully dark and scary in there. :unsure: I DO believe in Spooks. Oh I do. In fact I do - I do - I do - I do - I dooooooooooooooo believe in Spooks . . . You're gonna believe in a lot more than that after we're finished with you!!! :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump: <- Flying Monkeys!

Here's an interesting fact. Type the phrase: "Jesus Christ is Not God" into a Internet/Web search engine and you will bring up millions of web pages telling you: "Jesus IS God" and references to the Trinity. The Internet/Web results: You don't get what you're looking for. Type the phrase: "Jesus is God" or "the Trinity" into the Find Phrase of any biblical computer program when looking for that phrase in the bible and the results are: 0 - zip - nada - zilch. The biblical results: You still don't get what you are looking for. :blink: So ... apparently the answer to the question as to whether Jesus is or isn't God is completely dependent on exactly what it is you are looking for, and precisely where you decide to go looking.

And the next thing that woman will prove is monkeys flew out of her cat's rear-end!

You must be really :blink: if you think any church does that with people they excommunicate. You're even more if you think the people they've excommunicated believe it.

I know when I'm in faith when things happen quickly, because whenever you're in faith or when you're believing then things happen quickly. There are reasons why things wouldn't happen quickly, but one can develop their faith or their believing to receive things very quickly. One reason why things don't happen quickly is because people haven't learned how to put a demand on their faith to recieve immediately. Some people are perfectly fine with a "delayed" manifestation of what they are believing for. If you're someone who is OK with a delayed manifestion, then you'll have delayed manifestions of your faith because you haven't pressed in on your faith to receive quickly. God's Word says by his stripes we were [past tense] healed. If you are in faith to be healed then your healing will come quickly. If you don't receive your healing quickly, then you are probably OK with a delayed manifestation. It just means you haven't developed your faith to press in quick enough to receive healing. If that's the case then one should go to the doctor - because when you ARE in faith, things happen quickly - especially things God Word says are already available to you, i.e. healing. The problem is many people condemn themselves for that very reason. A delayed manifestion doesn't mean you have no faith, it just means you haven't pressed in to receive what is already available. Many people were led to think they had no faith or believing if they went to a doctor to get healed. No, going to a doctor is just another way to press in to receive healing, so why do people condemn themselves for that? Another reason we don't receive [lambano] things quickly is we haven't prepaired ourselves to receive [dechomai] things quickly. Our reception center - our runway is cluttered. An airplane won't land on a cluttered runway. Your "airplane of faith" can't land on a cluttered runway. No problem, just clean off the runway. But that can take some time. It's easy to condemn yourself for having a cluttered runway. But condemnation won't clear the runway - it only adds to the clutter already there. That's right. Manifestations of faith shouldn't take long, but prepairing ourselves to receive [lambano] manifestations can take time. But if you're waiting to get your faith or your believing to that place then you're already too late. Get your runway cleared off first - the wrong thinking and the doubt. When your runway is clear then you can receive instant results. Getting the thinking right and the heart right, that's all in the preparation to receive from God. I know there are people who say they no longer believe in the law of believing. If that were true and they had a quick working disease - they would have already died! It's better to keep your runway clear and keep the debris off your runway. It is written: Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of life. [Proverbs 4:23] Keeping your runway clear is included in the "keeping your heart with all diligence" part. How about things like finances and material abundance? The thing to remember there is God gives to you through the hands of men. God's hands are quick when it comes to God giving directly to you, but man's hand can be slow. So when it comes to finances and receiving material abundance, because other mens hands are involved, then it slows down the process of receiving. But when something is already available from God and belongs to you then you can press in to receive it. Salvation, the gift of holy spirit, healing, peace, etc. other men's hands are not on those things and aren't involved. Those things already belong to you so you can just claim those things. When things are directly between you and God and other men aren't involved then you can receive instantly if you so desire.

1. I don't believe you (except perhaps a STUDENT of that first 1953 class) can say with authority exactly what VPW taught on Receiving the Holy Spirit in that class. Even then, I would have plenty of reason to doubt what one of those students said. Why? Because if any of those students of that first class are still around today they would be older than I - likely in their 60's or perhaps their 70's by now. By the time a person gets that age it's doubtful one recalls with any clarity what happened in their teen's or 20's. If you contacted any of those students who first took the first PFAL class in 1953, then you're ahead of me there. But I wouldn't trust a 60 or 70 year olds recollection of what was taught in a bible class when they were a teenager (or perhaps slightly older) they took in 1953. VPW readily admits that B.G. Leonard taught him about healing and other aspects of the Holy Spirit field. He also admits it was George M. Lamsa that introduced him to Aramaic, the language of the original texts and that it was J.E. Stiles a pastor that led him into SIT. There is no "mystery" there on any of those things. 2. The PFAL class didn't become the focus of TWI's outreach until 1956. It was in Van Wert where VPW published the first edition of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. He also wrote numerous booklets, pamphlets and monographs which during those years laid the groundwork for over 400 magazine and newspaper aticles and eleven major Biblical research works. It wouldn't surprise me if many things changed from what was originally taught in that first class up until the PFAL class being TWI's focus of outreach in 1956. I guess the question still is though: Does the "focus of outreach" of a particular man's ministry mean their class is annointed? I believe it was Oakspear who stated: Well I agree with you, but I really don't see either one as a negative thing. PFAL was intended to be the focus of outreach for TWI in 1956. Yet it was during the 60's when VPW and Mrs. VPW conducted summer school classes, Way Family Camps, and other various Advances in the BRC. Aside from live PFAL, these other activities were the greatest opportunities for PFAL grads to become rooted in God's Word. Summer School sessions began in June 1962 and these various activities became the foundation of the academic program of TWI in which believers were taught how to research God's Word for themselves. It wasn't TWI's "program" just to shoot someone through a class and then "send them back home" to fend for themselves. That may be the difference. Perhaps that was Leonard's program of "outreach" but not TWI's. Did people take PFAL then go back home and "fend" for themselves? Very likely, I'd even say definately, and that's really the negative thing that I see. People get a little head knowlege of God's Word and of spiritual things (doesn't really matter where they got it) and then think they know it all. But it wasn't TWI's fault that was the program those people choose for themselves. One might expect that from those young in the faith, as people young in the faith haven't learned how to continue so they drop off. Many of them are still around too and I run into them all the time. They want you to answer all these "spiritual questions" that they have - they want you to "take" their "spiritual" requests. Quit taking requests from the quitters because true understanding of spiritual matters only comes to one who continues in the Word of God and in the faith and in the things of God - not to quitters who quit. The only thing that is annointed are God's people, and He doesn't annoint quitters. Gods' people aren't quitters if they truly are God's! Quitters aren't annointed - their disqualified. That's true in every category and phase of lfe. You quit and you're disqualified! But all these "quitters" on the Word of God and in the faith and in the things of God want us to think they're qualified to lead people? Give us a break!

OK back on topic then. What does that also say about B.G Leonard's $100-$130 "Full Bible Courses"? (Well - Duh!)

I would need to ask you to clarify and qualify that statement. What exactly are you implying by saying the early forms were not "put together"? B.G. Leonard taught Gifts of the Spirit. For the most part his books and bible classes still teach Gifts of the Spirit and one can take his "Full Bible Courses" which individually range anywhere from $100 - $130 a pop (per suggested donation). Apparently one doesn't get a "Complete Bible Study" with Leonard's "Full Bible Courses" - unlike PFAL. That donation can quickly add up to be quite a bit of change for the beginning bible student - more than the PFAL donation ever was - which was what - $200 or $250 at one point in time? One could take three or more of B.G. Leonard's $100 -$130 "Full Bible Courses" and they still would not get everything that is covered in the foundational PFAL class! On the other hand, VPW taught manifestations of the Spirit [the Greek word is: pneumatikos for the word "spiritual" in 1 Cor. 12:1 while the word gifts is in italics. Pneumatikos meaning: "that which belongs to, is determined by, influenced by or proceeds from the Spirit"] and not Gifts of the Spirit in PFAL. [p.162 of RTHST.] VPW also goes to great lengths in PFAL to clarify the difference between a "gift" and a "manifestation" - namely there is only "one gift" (holy spirit) but nine manifestation of that one gift. I can't say with any authority what Leonard taught on this particular verse: 1 Cor. 12:1, as I never took Leonard's "Gifts" of the Spirit class. While I agree VPW may have taken B.G. Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class at one point in time, VPW did not teach Gifts of the Spirit like B.G. Leonard did/still does. While there may be things in PFAL that are similar to Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class (I am not denying that could be possible) making the blanket statement that this was "Leonards class" with VPW's name on it is a fallacy many people here apparently have.

The only thing wrong with your conclusion is assuming those spirits "had no hope and were without God in the world." Unlike us who never had it to begin with, they had it but decided to refuse it.

Ah... and there is the trap that's been laid so many people fail to recognize. There is no scripture in any Bible anywhere that instructs a Christian to think the truth of someone else. Why? Because Jesus Christ is the only truth there is! There is no one alive today, nor anyone who ever lived who is or claimed to be the truth other than Jesus Christ himself. Thinking evil IS the only truth for those outside of Christ. I'm not onlly refering to those who aren't saved and who do not know the Lord, but also the Christian who refuses to put on the mind of Christ. Either way - until one comes to Christ, it is impossible for them to think any different.

They don't need to. They're already well practiced in the one-fingered quote/unquote gesture.

You went on and made my case even better than I did WW. That is the main reason why time spent on the Internet has matched and for the most part out-paced the time that used to be spent in front of the TV set - the Internet is far more addictive than the "boob tube" ever was. The reason the Internet is highly addictive is because the "user" can selectively tune out whatever unpleasant elements he or she doesn't like and interact with the more pleasant ones. The addicted Internet user in essence creates their own distorted reality of life by avoiding the conflicts that are inherent in interpersonal relationships. The reality of life is: Genuine relationships contain conflict. That is the inescapable fact of real life here in the real word. That is not necessarily always the case in the virtual world. If there were no conflict, there would be no genuine relationship. The sad truth is the addicted Internet user ends up paying a very high price for this distorted reality of life and living much like the addicted drug user does. And it is a drug. Now no addicted drug user will ever admit to you openly that they are hooked or addicted. Rather the opposite is the case. Most drug users will tell you they can quit the drug they've been using at the drop of a hat with no side effects. Most Internet users can't go more than 24 hrs. without another "fix" - without "hooking up" and going on-line. We have all heard stories of marriages that have been dissolved and strained because the spouse was addicted to Internet porn. I'm just citing one example where the Internet has made pornography easy and accessible where before the days of the Internet that was not the case. Today one can spare themselves the possible embarrassment of meeting someone they would rather not meet by visiting adult web sites rather than risk meeting somebody coming out of the adult book store that used to be on the shady side of town. Today the Interent has completely taken away that "unpleasant" risk for those addicted to pornography. The Interent has completely taken away the possibility of any conflict out of that relationship today, but it certainly hasn't taken away any of the cost.