What The Hey

Interesting stuff OM, I'm sure. The question that hasn't been answered yet is: "Why is there this constant pressure (especially from the media) on us to remember the Holocost"? Perhaps the more important question to ask would be: Whose interests does it serve? The answer to those questions won't be answered here or by those who want to exploit the Holocost. In fact, in some countries it is illegal to debate the Holocost as there are: Holocost Denial laws in effect in those countries. (What will be coming down the pike for the US - a "Holocost Remembrance" commemorative day?) From the responses to my last few posts (which are largely excerpts from a book by: David Hoggan, Phd) some people don't want the propaganda campaign to be challenged. They prefer the opposing view to be "silenced" so these important questions would go by unanswered. In that article Mark Weber (the director of the Institute for Historical Review) quotes Yehuda Bauer, a prominent Holocaust specialist (a professor at the Hebrew University in Israel): "Hardly a month passes without a new TV production, a new film, a number of new books of prose or poetry dealing with the subject, [the Holocost] and the flood is increasing rather than abating.” I believe that is an accurate assesment. I am currently aware that even this evening as I am responding on the Holocost topic here, there will be another "Holocost documentary" on public television. If you are planning on watching it (or another Holocost doumentary) I think you will be enlighted by the article written by: Mr. Mark Weber at the Instutute for Historical Review website: Institute for Historical Review. The article is located here: Holocost Remembrance: What's behind the Campaign? Those who were looking for me to respond to those type of questions would best be benefited by reading this article first.

Excerpt from: The Myth of the Six Million - Chapter 6. The Legend of the Depravity of Hitler and National Socialism (Notable issues highlighted, the most notable underlined - although this chapter is a highlight itself.) The National Socialist campaign against the Jews ended in total defeat and in death for Hitler on April 30, 1945. This result was produced by Germany's involvement in World War II. A tremendous campaign has been sustained since that date to depict Hitler as the most evil and wicked man who has ever lived, and to brand forever with shame the German nation which submitted to his leadership. The exploitation of the circumstances concerning Hitler's wartime treatment of the Jews was and remains the decisive factor in this campaign. The essence of the charge of unprecedented monstrosity against Hitler is that under his orders some six million Jews were exterminated in seried gas ovens that had been erected for this purpose in all the numerous concentration camps that existed before the war in Germany and in those which were opened later on in territories conquered by the advancing German armies. There has never been any valid evidence brought forward to support this charge in general, and the six million figure was purely conjectural from the beginning, having been set forth in the midst of the war, when any such extent of extermination would have been impossible, if the six million figure is to be accepted as the total number of Jews exterminated during the whole war period. If six million Jews had been exterminated by 1943, then by May, 1945, at least ten millions should have been done away with, provided Hitler and his cohorts could have got their hands on that many Jews which, of course, they could not have done. So far as can be discovered to date, the first time this charge of mass extermination of Jews throughout Europe was advanced against Hitler and his government took place in a book by a Polish-Jewish jurist, Rafael Lemkin, Axis Rule in Occupied Europe, which appeared in 1943. He contended that the Nazis had gassed millions of Jews, perhaps as many as six millions. This precise figure was first confirmed by the New Jewish Frontier early in 1945. Tortured witnesses for the Nuremberg Trials confirmed this figure when they did not exceed it, although the prosecution at Nuremberg was willing to settle for around four millions as the number that had been exterminated. Although totally ignorant of the facts, President Truman stated that six millions was the correct number and often repeated this figure, thus giving it official status. He cynically stated that his desire to please the Jews was due to the fact that there were many more Jewish than Arab voters in the United States. The six million figure has stuck, mainly due to the fact that the Jews have recognized that it is difficult enough to sustain any such figure and that to go beyond it would only add the ridiculous to the unsubstantiated, although the figure has often been casually lifted to seven or eight millions in the press. The linking of the reparations paid by West Germany to Israel and to German Jews to the six million figure has provided a strong vested financial interest in perpetuating this estimate. Before examining the literature of the legend of the extermination of six million Jews, it may be desirable to outline the general situation. There can be no decisive solution of the problem on a statistical basis for the figures are not available in any finality or decisive fashion. It is not known precisely bow many Jews were under German control at any time during the war, to say nothing of what the Germans did with them after they were able to get their hands on them. No one knows with any certainty how many Jews were in the territory ultimately occupied by the Germans before the attack on Russia on June 22, 1941, or what happened to them after the attack. It is uncertain how many fled back into Russia before the German advance. Nor does anybody know how many Jews were slaughtered by various Slavic peoples before the Germans arrived. There is plenty of evidence that Slavic peoples other than the Russians were more prone to kill Jews after war broke out than were the Germans, save for Jews operating among the Russian partisans. There are no accurate statistics as to how many Jews fled to Russia, to Palestine, to other European countries, and to the United States during the war. Nor are there any reliable figures as to how many Jews in areas occupied by the Germans survived the war. During the war, as well as before, the Germans were far more eager to expel Jews than to intern them, if and when it was possible to arrange emigration. This was not so easy to do in wartime. Jewish statisticians have done their best to magnify the number of Jews in the future occupied areas be-fore September, 1939, and June, 1941, and to reduce almost fantastically the number that remained alive in June, 1945. There is no probability that the needed statistics can ever be recovered in any satisfactory manner. Both the Jews and the Russians may be counted upon to suppress such statistics as they possess because of the likelihood that they would, expose the extent of the fraud involved. Unless the Russians should some time establish unity and rapport with the Germans they are never likely to release any figures which would lessen the indictment of the Germans relative to the extermination legend. The best that can be done is to produce the figures and related considerations which do now prove that it would have been entirely impossible for the Germans to have exterminated six million Jews, even if they had decided from the first to do so, and of any such policy there is no proof whatsoever. We know that there were about 360,000 Jews under German control in September, 1939, in Germany, Austria, the Sudetenland and Bohemia-Moravia. There were about 1,100,000 Jews in that part of Poland occupied by the Germans in 1939-1940. There were approximately 1,150,000 Jews in eastern Poland which was taken over by the Russians in the autumn of 1939. How many of these escaped into Russia ahead of the German drive after June, 1941, is unknown. There is no doubt that the Germans took over large numbers of Jews during -their invasion -of Russia, but it is very likely that at no time during the war did the Germans have control over more than 3,500,000 to 4,000,000 Jews, and many of these could not be withdrawn before the Russians occupied these areas again. One thing is relatively certain, and that is that the Germans never got their hands on as many as six million Jews during the war. To have exterminated six millions would have made it necessary for them to have executed every last Jew that they seized. Not even the upholders of the extermination legend allege that this was the case, since they portray great numbers of Jews used in labor operations at all the German concentration camps. While it was the usual German policy during the war to intern Jews to prevent subversion and espionage, to suppress partisan activities, and to secure Jews for the labor force, the German practice of interning Jews was no such sweeping process as took place with the treatment of the Japanese by the United States and Canada. After the war, Philip Auerbach, the Jewish attorney-general of the Bavarian State Office for Restitution, claimed that the Germans interned no less than eleven million Jews, but in the light of all the even partially reliable figures it is doubtful if they interned as many as two million, and not all of these were put in concentration camps. Some were placed in Jewish community centers like that at Theresienstadt, where they were governed by Jews. Not only such population figures as we possess but also considerations of logistics make it impossible to credit any such figure as eleven millions, or even six millions. To have transported, interned, administered, fed and clothed six million Jews would have paralyzed German military operations on the vast eastern front. It would have been a terrific task to have gathered, interned and cared for three million Jews. In the early days of the launching of the extermination legend it was maintained that there were gas chambers in all of the German concentration camps and that great numbers of Jews were exterminated in all of them. But after the occupation of West Germany by the Americans, British and French, there were many honest observers in the occupation forces who visited these camps and found and reported that no gas chambers existed there. It was then contended that most of the gas ovens were concentrated at Auschwitz in southern. Poland, which was then under Russian control. The Russians refused to allow any visitors there for about ten years after the war, by which time the Russians were able to revamp Auschwitz in such a manner as to give some plausibility to the claim that large numbers of Jews had been gassed there. It is significant, however, that no living, authentic eye-witness of the gassing of Jews at Auschwitz has ever been produced and validated. It has continued to, be maintained that about half of the entire six million Jews said to have been gassed by the Germans were gassed at Auschwitz, but even the Jewish statistician, Gerald Reitlinger, admits that only 363,000 inmates were registered at Auschwitz from January, 1940, to February, 1945, and not all -of these were Jews. The supporters of the genocide legend contend that many at Auschwitz were not registered but they have brought no proof of this. Even if one admits that there were as many who were unregistered as were registered, that would make fewer than 750,000 altogether. It would have been very difficult to have gassed about three millions with only 750,000 to work on, although it has been frequently asserted by dogmatic but uninformed writers that from four to five million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz. Moreover, many who were sent to Auschwitz were shifted elsewhere, especially toward the end of the war when the Russians were advancing. Here, again, logistics supplement registration and population data in undermining the extermination myth. To have brought three million Jews, and a considerable number of Gentiles to Auschwitz would have placed an insuperable burden upon German transportation facilities which were strained to the limit in supporting the far-flung eastern military front, especially after the war began to turn against the Germans. There is no probability that the Germans would have risked their military fortunes to the extent required to convey three million persons to Auschwitz and care for them there. Hence, both population figures and logistics combine to discredit the legend of six million Jews being gassed in all camps under German control, as well as of about three millions being gassed at Auschwitz. Joined with all this are the facts which will be developed later on showing that there is no evidence that the Germans adopted any program of mass extermination of Jews during the war or that any German National Socialist leader ever gave any order to do so. It has been alleged by numerous Jewish critics of Hitler, especially Gerald Reitlinger, that early in the war the Nazi leaders decided on a "final solution" of the Jewish problem and that this solution was the extermination of all the Jews they could seize. [There is no foundation whatever for this charge. Hitler, Himmler and Goebbels did determine upon a "final solution" of the Jewish problem, so far as they could control it, but this solution was to encourage or force the Jews to leave all lands that the National Socialists controlled and to settle elsewhere. Emigration rather than extermination was the solution proposed by all of these Nazi leaders. Not even the Nuremberg inquisition could link Göring in any serious manner with the Jewish issue, but there is no doubt that he shared the program of encouraging the Jews to leave all territory that Germany controlled or might control.

On that point you would be 100% correct, OM. Here are just a few excerpts from "The Myth of the Six Million". History has many examples of myths that live a longer and richer life than truth, and may become more effective than truth. The Western World has for some years been made aware of a Jewish girl through the medium of what purports to be her personally written story, "Anne Frank's Diary." Any informed literary inspection of this book would have shown it to have been impossible as the work of a teenager. A noteworthy decision of the New York Supreme Court confirms this point of view, in that the well known American Jewish writer, Meyer Levin, has been awarded $50,000 to be paid him by the father of Anne Frank as an honorarium for Levin's work on the "Anne Frank Diary." Mr. Frank, in Switzerland, has promised to pay to his race-kin, Meyer Levin, not less than $50,000 because he had used the dialogue of Author Levin just as it was and "implanted" it in the diary as being his daughter's intellectual work. ... The Diary Of Anne Frank was first published in 1952 and immediately became a bestseller. It has been republished in paperback, 40 printings. It is impossible to estimate how many people have been touched and aroused by the movie production. Why has the trial involving the father of Anne Frank, bearing directly on the authenticity of this book, never been "officially reported"? In royalties alone, Otto Frank has profited richly from the sale of this book, purporting to depict the tragic life of his daughter. But is it fact, or is it fiction? Is it truth or is it propaganda? Or is it a combination of all of these? And to what degree does it wrongfully appeal to the emotions through a misrepresentation as to its origin? -------------- Paul Rassinier, Le Mensonge d'Ulysso (The Lies of Odysseus, Paris, 1955, pp. 209ff.) demonstrated conclusively that there were no gas chambers at Buchenwald. Rassinier is a French professor who spent most of the war as an inmate at Buchenwald. He made short work of the extravagant claims about Buchenwald gas chambers in David Rousset, The Other Kingdom (N.Y., 1947; French ed., L'Univers Concentrationnaire, Paris, 1946). He also investigated Denise Dufournier, Ravensbrueck: the Women's Camp of Death (London, 1948), and he found that the heroine had no other evidence for gas chambers than the vague rumors described by Margarete Buber. Similar investigations were made of such books as Filip Friedman, This Was Oswiecim (Auschwitz): the Story of a Murder Camp (N.Y., 1946), and Eugen Kogon, The Theory and Practice of Hell (N.Y., 1950). Rassinier did mention Kogon's claim that a deceased former inmate, Janda Weiss, had said to Kogon alone that she had been a witness of the gas chambers in operation at Auschwitz. Rassinier noted that there were of course rumors about gas chambers at Dachau too, but fortunately they were merely rumors. Indeed, one could trace them as far back as the sensational book by the German Communist, Hans Beimler, Four Weeks in the Hands of Hitler's Hell-Hounds: the Nazi Murder Camp of Dachau (N.Y., 1933). Rassinier entitled his book The Lies of Odysseus in commemoration of the immemorial fact that travelers return bearing tall tales. Rassinier asked Abbé Jean-Paul Renard, who had also been at Buchenwald, how he could possibly have testified that gas chambers had been in operation there. Renard replied that others had told him of their existence, and hence he had been willing to pose as a witness of things that he had never seen (Ibid., pp. 209ff.). Rassinier has toured Europe for years, like Diogenes seeking an honest man, more specifically somebody who was an actual eyewitness, of any person, Jew or Gentile, who had ever been deliberately exterminated in a gas oven by Germans during the course of World War II, but he has never found even one such person. He found that not one of the authors of the many books charging that the Germans had exterminated millions of Jews during the war had ever seen a gas oven built for such purposes, much less seen one in operation, nor had one of these authors ever been able to produce a live, authentic eyewitness who had done so. And in summary (letting the book speak for itself:) Admittedly the execution for no crime of any one human being, or a thousand, or a million, or six million is a horrible crime. But wanton exaggeration of atrocities for political and blackmailing purposes is a wrong, too, and honesty and accuracy are virtues. Facts available now are enough to prove that the figure of six million is a preposterous exaggeration of at least three million. Furthermore, all indications point to the likelihood that when the Soviets open up Eastern Europe for the same sort of investigation possible in West Europe, the legend of the six million will shrink some 90 per cent, and of the remaining casualties some will be proven to have died in the Warsaw uprising in combat, some to have been executed justifiably as partisans, and some to have been killed by non-Germans for collaboration with bolsheviks and, alas, also some to have been executed in the heat of war unjustifiably by the Nazis. For these Germany has been penitently straining every fibre to make restitution.

The Thirteenth Tribe was written by: Arthur Koestler. In The Thirteenth Tribe Mr. Koestler documents how the modern day Jews have little to no genetic ties to the biblical tribes of Israel as is commonly thought. Rather, their roots can be traced to the ancient Khazar Empire (an almost forgotten power in Eastern Europe) an empire that was wiped out by Genghis Khan - but Koestlers work goes on to indicate and provides evidence that the Khazars had migrated to Poland and formed "the cradle" of Western Jewry. As Mr. Koestler points out, the Khazars ... resisted the Western pressure to become Chrisitian and the Eastern to adopt Islam. Rejecting both, they converted to Judaism. In the second part of the book, (The Heritage) Mr. Koestler speculates about the faith of the Khazars and their impact on the racial composition and social heritage of modern Jewry. According to Koestler, "Should the theory be confirmed, the term 'anti-Semitism' would be void of meaning since it is based on a misapprehension shared by both the killers and their victims." (Excerpt taken from: The Thirteenth Tribe - by: Arthur Koestler). Both books: The Myth of the Six Million and The Thirteenth Tribe have been discussed on GSC (well, hashed around more or less) but nothing discussed was proven or unproven. Some of what Koestler documents in The Thriteenth Tribe regarding the Khazars he got from Professor Dunlop of Columbia University - a leading authority on the history of the Khazars. One would be pretty hard-pressed to believe Professor Dunlop was (as one poster put it): a TWI grad or bona fide Nazi.

Then prove it.

If you want to know what "The Myth of the Six Million" is all about, you can read the entire book on-line. A lot of facts are presented but one will probably find the reading just as dry as: The Thirteenth Tribe. The Myth of The Six Million

Your rapidly loosing more and more credibility all the time WW. Your jaded-mindset always keeps you focused on some singular fact that you want to spotlight. The link you provided is LCM addressing some real messed up Corp - he's not speaking to the general public on the topic of homosexuality. But this is a classic example of an extreme individual (who here doesn't realize that about LCM anyway) dealing very poorly with a very extreme situation. So you provided a link to a transcript where Craig went off on a tirade on some messed-up Corp people. Big deal. I have a tape with LCM stating exactly what I previously posted - and for the record he was not speaking out of frustration or dealing with messed-up Corp people on that tape. He was speaking to the general public on the subject of homosexuality. For the record I tend to take what someone says casually as being and representing the truth regarding their position on a topic, not what they might say out of extreme anger and frustration when they happen to be dealing with extreme circumstances.

My sentiments exactly regarding the incident/example WW has cited, especially when most of what's been reported is nothing but hearsay. It only establishes the fact one has a jaded-mindset and they are not open to any further explanations regarding a situation. Don't get me wrong, I certainly am not making any apologies for LCM as to what may/may not have occurred, but since when did LCM decide to join TWI for the purpose of practicing Psychology? That's what I'd like to know.

For the other side of the coin I would vote for "Mike"!

For the record LCM never stated he hated homosexuals. His exact words on the subject was that he hated the devil spirits that made them act that way, and then he went on to say, According to the Word of God I have every right to hate the devil in a "renewed mind" believing kind of way. (Now that phrase may not be quoting LCM verbatim, but it's extremely close to what he actually said on the subject.) I believe if that weren't really the case, then what other possible reason would those with homo devil spirits [or gays if you want to put it that way] take such a brash comment so personally? It's probably the homo spirits in the gays that are hating him right back for that. What I think ultimately happened is that they [the homo spirits] declared an all out war right back on LCM after he declared his personal war on them - and they eventually won the battle. WRONG! - Women always know!

While it is true LCM played football in college, played tight end and even lettered three years, he also received his Bachelor of Arts degree in 1971 while attending the University of Kansas. While I do agree athletics played a very important role in LCM's life, I do not agree however that athletics was LCM's only "real education" as one poster here had put it earlier. Frankly speaking, I've come to expect much more from that particular poster, especially when I see them purposely go out of their way and make it a point and constantly pride themselves on displaying to others how they are the only one who have all their "facts" straight about VPW, LCM, TWI, etc., etc, etc. - especially whenever somebody disagrees with them. That's why I don't believe for one micro-second that fact about LCM's career was something completely unknown to that poster at all. MY GOD - HOW could it be? Well, it might not be evident to many, but what is evident to me is all they wanted was their "jaded-mindset" that athletics was LCM's only real education to dominate the "spotlight" here while letting the fact LCM received a bachelor of arts degree in 1971 slide by and remain hidden in the dark. Why did I bother to bring that particular fact up, especially when I know that fact is something many here would not consider highly significant? Because that fact is but only one example out of hundreds of posts you will read from that poster. But I can't fault them very far, and they should not take it personally when I realize that persons mindset is not too very different from the other's who also post here. As it is often said, birds of a feather flock together. But what saddens me particularly is coming to realize just how many of my peers are rapidly becoming a sample (albeit a small one) of what has gone wrong with our American justice system today. It is nothing more than a cliche' to say one is: "Innocent until proven guilty", when the reality is one is: "Guilty until proven innocent." Proving one's innocence is something that will never, ever happen, especially when facts are pushed aside and kept in the dark, while others are purposely and even intentionly spotlighted to overshadow others, regardless of how insignificant they may seem to you. History has already borne out and has proven many times that even one insignificant fact can make all the difference regarding someone's guilt or innocence.

Remarkable that your description of LCM precisely reminds me of the personaility of another pastor I recently came in contact with about a year ago - with the possible exception of not picking his own wife. Must be the "typical job description" for pastors in the "fundie-type" ministries.

Interesting in all this discussion about "changing your mind" no one (so far as far as I can tell) has returned to the scriptures on this topic. Maybe it's because to truly change your mind one first has to repent, and repentance is not something indicitive of the mindset of so many people today. Take a look at Matt. 4:17. "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." This was not a new message that Jesus was preaching. LONG before Jesus began to preach this message John the Baptist had preached the same thing years before, as some scholars report. It says in Matt 3:1,2: "In those days (this was years before Matt 4:17) came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea." "And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". The word "repent" in both these verses, Matt 3:2 and 4:17 is the word, "metanoeo", which literally means: to have another mind, or a change of mind. Metanoeo is made up of two root words - meta refering here to "change", noia meaning "mind". The reason I believe there is a lot of resistance in regard to one repenting is because of the negative connotations preachers tend to impose on it - i.e. specifically that one must first recognize all their faults and their shortcomings. Truthfully speaking, no one wants to readily admit that they "messed up". That's the last thing on the Christians mind, especially when they are being taught (often times simultaneously) that they are/have been made righteous in Christ Jesus. Yet repentance is not only how one begins the Christian life, it is also how one continues to serve as a Christian. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand - it is near." If you were to quit breathing this very second you would be immediately confronted with "the kingdom of heaven" and if you were in it or not. The Kingdom is at hand, meaning it is near. Not many people realize repentance, or literally, "changing one's mind" is a matter of life and death. There are people who hold onto offenses for years - decades even, for something that happened to them more than 20 years ago as if it had happened yesterday afternoon. Why is it when we talk about changing our minds, repentance and forgiveness are usually the last things we tend to think about, let alone do?" Just some food for thought here.

Funny that is not what I just read, in that PFAL claims to be a tool. PFAL does not claim to be a tool. PFAL (itself) claims to be a set of keys. What's the difference you ask? A key unlocks a door. A tool does not unlock a door. Furthermore, PFAL claims to aquaint the reader with the "basic" keys so that the bible (Genesis to Revelation) will unfold. PFAL claims to be the basic keys. It does not claim to aquaint the reader with the intermediate or the advanced set of keys. There are many biblical "tools" available (your local bible bookstore probably carries them - concordances, Hebrew/Greek dictionaries, Lexicons etc.) but none of those "biblical tools" unfold the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. They simply do not make this claim in their prefaces or their introductory pages - to unfold Genesis to Revelation as does PFAL. They simply do not make the same claim that PFAL makes of itself. What is that claim? The claim is - "so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold and so that the abundant life which Jesus Christ came to make available will become evident. To who? To those who want to appropriate His abundance to their lives. Notice PFAL only claims to be the basic keys to do this, not the intermediate or the advanced set of keys to do this. Likewise PFAL did not claim to be "a tool" - i.e. another biblical concordance, a Greek dictionary, an interlinear, lexicon, etc. Yes, PFAL is more than a tool. PFAL is the basic keys. Any tool can be used wrongly of course, and this can be said of the many biblical tools that are available. One would think with all the biblical tools available today, equally intelligent biblical scholars using the same biblical tools could come to the same conclusion on the meaning of the scriptures - but more often they only diverge futher apart. A key on the other hand, when used wrongly does not open the door or the right set of doors. If you take away the biblical keys and substitute biblical tools, then just what is one left with? Exactly what it says right thar in Luke 11:52. "Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key (not tool) of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." The Scribes and the Pharisees had all the "biblical tools" available to them one could ever hope for. What did they do to Jesus with their "biblical tools"? Just what it says there in Luke 11:53,54. It doesn't sound much different to me today, especially among those who favor their "biblical tools" over the "basic keys." Mike has simply decided to move beyond that basic PFAL key set, that's all. So why are you all so surprised?

Actually there was an AOS II planned but apparently it never materialized. (AOS II was mentioned on p34 of the AOS booklet). Here's the rundown on the production/cast of AOS: EXECUTIVE PRODUCER - L. Craig Martindale PRODUCER - Ken McCaw ASSOCIATE PRODUCER - Teri Gill CHOREOGRAPER - Murphy Galbraith ORIGINAL SCORE: - Ken McCaw NARRATION SCRIPT: - Gloria Olivier and Elena Whiteside SET DESIGN: - Brian Burch COSTUME DESIGN: - Brian Burch and Teri Gill LIGHTING DESING AND SPECIAL EFFECTS: - Larry Scharfenberger ORCHESTRATIONS: - Jim McKee ORCHESTRA CONDUCTED by: - Jim McKee PRODUCTION ADMINISTRATION: - Bob Winegarner Cast: Coach, Leader, and Minister ......................... L. Craig Martindale Seed of The Serpent .................................... Murphy Galbraith Devil Spirits: Sensual and Alluring: ....................... Daimon Barbara Rue; Daimonion Carol Dudley, Kelly Lee, Sylvia Sepulveda, Bettyanne Tatnall, Barbara Westling Spritely and Devious: ..................... Daimon Michael Manetta; Daimonion Johnny Berryhill, Teresa Krause, Leslie Murdza Reckless and Hilarious: ................... Daimon Don Spencer; Daimonion Tom Martino, Connie Mallory, Daria Melendez Stately and Powerful: ................... Daimon Patti DesMarais; Daimonion Leslie Blake, Lisa Denne, Debbie Gornay, Leslie Strom, Evelyn Watson Heavy and Gloomy: .................... Daimon Robert Olivier; Daimonion Trudy Bayne, Kurt Rocco, Julie Vidano Animilistic and Vicious: ............... Daimon Joane Archontakis; Daimonion Lisa Anderson, Arminae Arzarian, Lynn Gandal, Susie Hagen, Chris McKiernan BELIEVERS: ............................... Randl Ash, Seda Asarian, Debra Berger, Hayward Chappell, David Chirico, Teri Gill Body-Soul Woman ..................... Joyce Burke NARRATOR ................................ Mike Verdicchio So now you know who to blame for what in AOS. (But of course, a lot of the people who were involved in the cast/production of AOS are no longer with TWI.)

Tom's question - Mike's question - back and forth then back and forth once again. Who cares who asked who what question when all your doing is pitting two parties against each other. Neither one OWNS the question because neither one OWNS the answer. In contrast to the "so-called Chistian" manner I constanlty witness from "so-called Christians" thinking that they "OWN" ALL the answers to ALL the questions, (a situation in which it makes it easy for one to accuse someone of plagarism I imagine) I tend to find the unchristian manner rather refreshing much more often. At least the non-christian is humble enough to admit they don't know all the answers anymore than they know all the questions. But then, isn't that exactly the one whom Jesus Christ came to seek and give His life for to begin with?

I was just wondering Mike - Do you use a "speech to text" editor to post here? I certainly can't figure out how it would even be remotely possible for you to respond to so many people and also post so prolifically here on GSC without it.

Just off the bat I'd like to know if these facts are true (or false) regarding the Mormon Church: 1. Polygamy was lived openly in the Mormon Church from 1852-1890. 2. 5% (about 60,000 Mormons) are still polygamists. 3. Polygamists are excommunicated, but only if they are vocal about their polygamy. 4. The Mormon church still considers polygamist marriages to be valid even if the law does not. 5. Polygamy was banned by the Utah Constitution because they were coerced by the Federal government. (The Edmunds-Tucker act - the short answer to the question why Polygamy was banned. The Mormon church however only made a show of abandoning it in order to get statehood.) 6. 35% of Utahs population does not believe polygamists should be prosecuted according to a recent poll. (The poll was taken in 1998 by the Salt Lake Tribune.) This is an interesting read -> Polygamy FAQ's The links at the bottom of the page might ruffle someone's feathers, i.e. the "Women Want Polygamy" link, which eventually led to this extra tidbit of info: Wilford Woodruff himself took another plural wife after issuing the manifesto (Lydia Mountford, San Francisco, CA, 1897). I will readily admit I am not an expert on the LDS/Mormon Church (as if I really wanted to be). But after reading this I came to the conclusion that Polygamy is still practiced and is still OK within the Mormon "LDS" Church. Of course it probably helps if you don't label all the other relationships as a marriage - you just "live-together" and thereby avoid all the legal hot-labels, as this FAQ so eloquently put it.

VPW should have been a Mormon if you ask me. That way he could have had more than 1 wife and by-passed all the adultery accuasations from his "holier-than-thou" antagonists. At least polygamy makes adultery 'squeaky clean' for the Mormons. I don't believe it really matters anyway. All their accusations do is help write the book: No Man Really Knows My History whenever they speak of VPW.

Are you claiming the Christian religion upholds the standards of Christian behavior? Oh PHBTTTTTT! One only becomes "Christ-like" to the degree the Word of God lives in them. Frankly speaking, I don't see it, especially in the so called: "real world" your talking about. But it is typical of "Americanized Chrisitanity" today, that separates the written Word from the living Word, Jesus Christ. The great design of the whole Word of God is Jesus Christ. Apart from him the Word of God cannot be understood and it is the scriptures which testify of Christ - not the "real world". The living Word, Jesus Christ, and the written Word, the Scriptures, cannot be separated. But that is the flavor of "Americanized Christianity" in the so called: 'real world' today. It is a powerless counterfeit, albeit at times it can be a spectacular one ending in nothing but confusion and speculation. Just a lot of sizzle with no steak.

Says who? (OH - the self-righteous, critical, religious, Pharasee's - that's who! Well, they're always around.) BTW, just what horrible, terrible, judgement awaits God's children? Sounds more like the sheep trying on the wolves clothing to me.

Save yourself time and money and just make up your own version. Most do.

Isaiah 28:9-12. The answer to your question lies in the fact that most people simply (and only) want the short, 'quick and easy' abbreviated answer to many of lifes complicated issues and problems. It is also the main reason why we live in a "consumer-mentality" shaped world. There's just these "precepts" that we all want to gloss over and trim out of the way to get to that short abbreviated answer first -

The "snowstorm incidents" were discussed in the Doctrinal forum on the old ProPFAL thread. It was there where 'Mike' had posted the following: It was already a discussion of the same incident back on that tread. Same-o, Same-o all over again.