What The Hey

That's one of the biggest questions today people have concerning Christianity, i.e. Don't I get to determine what's right for me? The newspapers and TV bombard our sensibilities as we witness more and more corruption and vice going on in the world. Now we have people bombarding us with the sins of Church leaders, both past, present, and even dead ones. We are constantly being bombarded with these messages, but now we are hearing a completely conflicting message - (remarkably by one who has bomarded people with their personal message of corruption and vice in TWI) PEOPLE ARE FREE TO CHOSE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. That's the message now - the message of moral relativism (that nothing is absolutely right or wrong - it just depends on the situation) that no one has the right to say what is morally wrong, bad or evil. The bible certainly teaches us that there are moral absolutes - things that are always right and wrong no matter what. Now maybe there are people who want to defend the worst crimes, but even basic common sense tells us that murder, rape, adultry, theft, fraud and similar crimes are always wrong. But the question for most people is: Who defines morality? If there were no God, then each of us would be the highest form of life. Being the highest form of life then we have the right to determine for ourselves our own morality. On the otherhand, if God exists, then the definition of morality belongs to Him, not to us. For example, God did not tell us not to murder just because He wanted to make up some arbitrary rule. The reason He told us not to murder is because He is the giver of life and He would never take the life of an innocent person. Likewise God is truthful and honest, and therefore He requires us to be honest and truthful ourselves. Isn't it remarkable how few people are offended when we demand that they don't commit murder but are horribly offended when we require them to be truthful and honest. I know what most of you are probably thinking - "at least I haven't killed anybody". But how many people can truly say that we have never hated someone, or destroyed someone's reputation with our words, or have never been jealous or envious of someone? Yet these words and actions springing from our selfishness are just as murderous, "as is the act of taking someone's life" as they fall far short from the love of God that He expects us to exhibit. I believe some people have totally gotten the wrong idea - that some people are here just to justify the sins of a dead minister or some other TWI leader. They claim "some people" are here just to "shut the victims up" but the truth is, "these victims" are very outspoken! No. Don't be fooled. They flaunt and parade their morality over others, and that's the reason they won't "shut up" and are very outspoken. They use "Christian morality" as their springboard to justify themselves, all the while condeming and crushing others they don't like in order to get rid of them or simply wish would 'go away'. They want you to forget all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:22). Jesus Christ was a very morale person, but is that how he used morality - to condemn and crush others - to prove to everyone: JUST HOW GREAT AND WONDERFUL A REAL MORAL CHRISTIAN GUY HE WAS? Now maybe that is the jesus some people want to follow - but not me. Oh, don't misunderstand. My Christ was indeed a moral guy, but he used his morality to lift others up out of the muck and the mire they got themselves into - not crush them and push them down further in it! Of course, when it comes to Jesus Christ, you are completely free to chose one or the other.

I say it's not the wolves in sheep's clothing one has to look out for anymore. The sheep have learned how to wear wolves clothing.

I am well aware T-Bone was using a specific definition of the term church, (that being, as you put it, the conventional, universal recongized one) but "the church" or "a church" is not limited to that specific narrow definition. (Please re-read the definition of church above - highlighted in red.) People can be, and are called-out for various reasons. Praise and worship is just one of many reasons why people could be called-out, but a church is not limited to that specific definition. In Acts 19:24-32, Demetrius gathered together a group of silversmiths and emotionally encited them against the apostle Paul. Now Demetrius didn't gather the silversmiths together for a "Praise and Worship" service, but he had led those silversmiths into believing their craft was in danger and would come to nothing - as well as the temple of the "great goddess Diana" should be despised and her magnifance be destroyed (v.26,27). What was the result of that gathering? Praise and Worship? No, it was confusion. (v.32 says: "Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly [ekklesia, the church] was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.) The assembly (the ekklesia) wasn't called there by Demetrius for a modern-day "Praise and Worship" service. God's Word, the bible, is not limited to some "conventional, universal, easily recognized modern-day Noah Webster's definition" of the meaning of the word - church, regardless of what limitations modern-day man decides to place upon the Word of God. (And modern-day man does it to a whole lot more words in the Word of God than just the word - "church".)

I don't think it has anything to do with TWI's arrogance. Maybe ignorance is a better word. The truth is: People are still going to sin against you regardless of what church they are affiliated with. Heck - you may even have members of your own family who sin (and probably will sin in the future) against you. The real problem for you is: You've got to live with those people - the members of your own family - but I haven't seen anyone here come forward who says they are still living with someone in TWI who has "horribly sinned" against them. (If they're here on GSC then they probably already left TWI. At least, that is the impression I get.) So what are you going to do when those people don't follow scriptural instruction? Perpetually whine and complain about it as the victim of someone's sin? Well - I guess you can, but I don't see how doing that is ever going to get a confession of repentance or an apology out of anyone, regardless if they are affiliated with TWI or not. For example: People have been whining and belly aching over TWI here for years. How's all that "whining and belly-aching" worked out for them or for anybody else so far? (Somebody once said the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over [whining and belly-aching in this case] and expecting a different result.)

QUOTE(Jonny Lingo @ Feb 12 2008, 10:07 PM) So, there are drugging rapists here at GSC who need to apologize. And if they are here, as you say, then they need not only apologize, but be arrested also... You certainly did!! You said it right there in post# 256: Mr. Lingo then went beyond that by also mentioning something about being arrested. But you said there were TWI participants here that had to: REPENT! and apologize!!! -- and make amends. For your information: 1. I am not a TWI participant. I haven't been since 1991. 2. I don't have to: REPENT, make amends, or apologize - not to you - or to anybody else at GSC. Why? Because I haven't done anything to you (or to anyone else at GSC for that matter) that requires me to: REPENT, make amends or apologize for. In fact - I don't believe we have even ever personally met one another - at a GSC gathering or while in TWI! - the same thing goes for many other posters here at GSC. ... That's why ... 3. I am not mad at anyone here - but I certainly think someone here maybe very . Just why do I think someone here is very ? Because I have a hard time seeing why anyone here could possibly be: (to put it in your own words) "completely disgusted by what I did to them" - namely for reasons #1 and #2 cited above.

First - what makes you think they have to repent? They (whatever TWI participants you happen to be referring to) probably don't know you so they don't owe you an apology. On the otherhand (if they do know you) that only indicates they don't value the relationship between you and them enough to repent or to apologize.

All this discussion over "somebody's morality" proves that what exists in the church today are political liberals who want a "moral Jesus" stripped of grace.

It's interesting to note the word for "sorrow" there in verse 10 of II Corinthians 7 is the word "lupe" and not "katakrima" - which is guilt or condemnation. So there is a difference between sorrow and guilt - a connection you are apparently making between the two insinuating that "guilt is a good thing" - but the Word of God does not make that connection. Sorrowful feelings can also lead one into guilt, which is why v10 of IICorinthians 7 warns us that the sorrow of the world worketh death. The word "repentance" in that verse is the word metameletos, a compound word from - meta=change and meletao=imagination, or simply to change what one is imagining or what they are meditating upon. When one succumbs to feelings of guilt, they certainly are not in the process of changing what they are meditating upon or thinking about - which is why that verse says the sorrow of the wolrd worketh death. (And yes, I personaly know someone who was made to feel guilty by religious folks for what he had done. He found no escape from his guilt and likewise committed suicide).

Religion keeps telling you all you have to do to overcome sin is just throw "Holy Water" on all the green pukey stuff in your life - and then everything will magically be ok. But all it becomes is a real scary "The Exorcist" movie whenever we attempt to get rid of all that pukey stuff. We've got to make sure that "God is in the House." But all one ends up with is - is an ugly mix of Holy water and green puke! Nick Cave says (sings) it well ...

I was going to elaborate further on a point I was making but then ran out of time. The scariest movie of all time (The Exorcist) has returned - in a version you've never seen. Warner Home Video put out a “25th Anniversary Special Edition” for William Friedkin’s The Exorcist on DVD and laserdisc. The expanded 75-minute featurette is a new documentary produced by the BBC specifically for the film's 25th anniversary edition, featuring more than 11 minutes of never-before-seen footage. Deleted scenes—and some new digital effects—were inserted into the re-release subtitled "The Version You've Never Seen" in 2000. Even though "The Exorcist" has been classified as a horror flick, it is supposedly based on a true story. It is based on a 1949 exorcism Blatty heard about while he was a student in the class of 1950 at Georgetown University, a Jesuit and Catholic school. According to Rev. Father William O'Malley (who played Father Joseph Dyer in the film), the events depicted in the film are approximately 80% true. He claims the big discrepancies between the movie and case it was inspired by were: it was a boy who was possessed, not a girl; the possession did not occur in Georgetown, but just outside DC in Cottage City, MD. In this case, the boy's head did not rotate 180 degrees, though he claims that nearly everything else in the movie actually occurred. The name of the boy who was subject of the "true" exorcism that inspired Blatty's novel was Ronald Hunkeler. After he was "cured" he went on to attend Gonzaga College High School in Washington, DC, graduating in 1954. He was later a scientist with NASA. He refuses all interviews regarding his exorcism. At last account, he was rumored to be living in Laurel, MD. (From: Wikipedia) So apparently there is some credibility even in this horror flick. But the truth of the matter is we've already seen it all - when people battle with demons. Holy water and green puke fly from every imaginable angle as this battle of good and evil continues to rage on and on. But in the end, who is the real winner? Just what are the two "biggest demons"people struggle with the most? Money and Sex. The reason we continue to struggle with these demons is because of the emotional attatchments we have to them. Now if you want to emotionaly incite someone, then these two demons are the best ones out there. In Acts 19 we read how Demetrius a silversmith who made shrines for the goddess Diana emotionally incited a mob of people against the apostle Paul. How was he able to accomplish that? He first got them emotionally riled up by getting to "their pocketbook" - by telling the mob their craft was in danger. Here he first riles people with money. Then he goes on to mention the Goddess Diana ... how she would be despised and her magnifiicence be destroyed ... (and note this) whom all Asia and the world worshippeth. (Acts 19:27) Even though we don't bow down and worship a goddess Diana, we still are worshipping what that goddess represents. There are references to Diana in common literature. For example, in Shakespeare's play, Romeo and Juliet, many references are made to her. Rosaline, a beautiful woman who has sworn to chastity, is said to have "Dian's wit". Later on in the play, Romeo says, "It is the East, and Juliet is the sun. Arise fair sun, and kill the envious moon." He is saying that Juliet is better than Diana and Rosaline for not swearing chastity. Diana is also a character in the 1876 Leo Delibe ballet 'Sylvia'. The plot deals with Sylvia, one of Diana's nymphs and sworn to chastity and Diana's assault on Sylvia's affections for the shepherd Amyntas. (Excerpt from: Wikipedia) What the goddess Diana represents is chastity - chastity of course referring to the sexual behavior of a man or woman acceptable to the ethic norms and guidelines of a particular culture, civilization or religion. For example, within the scope of Christian ethic, Roman Catholics view sex within marriage as chaste, but prohibit the use of artificial contraception as an offense against chastity, seeing contraception as contrary to God's will and design of human sexuality. Many Anglican churches allow for artificial contraception, seeing the restriction of family size as possibly not contrary to God's will. A stricter view is held by the Shakers, who prohibit marriage (and sexual intercourse under any circumstances) as a violation of chastity. Getting people emotionally riled up over the gods of money and sex (even chase sex) is nothing new. Demetrius himself did it back there in Acts 19. What was the response by the majority of the people? The response is still the same today - "And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians." These two gods - money and sex still have a very powerful hold on people and God forbid people learn to despise these two gods?

Of course you will be horrified - if all you absorb are the horror stories. When I first saw The Exorcist back in the 70's I was completely "horrified" by it. After I saw the movie I still remember how I was even afraid to go to bed that night because I thought I might wake up in the morning being possessed and looking like "Regan". But looking back on it today, even "The Exorcist" was a little bit wierd. In fact, a lot of the plot doesn't make sense and the laws of physics would have to be violated to make it even a remotely true story. But as long as people insist on keeping these TWI horror stories fresh and alive in their mind and the mind of others today, instead of really going back - one can't really see what a crappy plot those stories are telling - much like "The Exorcist" story did.

Hmmmm... I recently saw that old movie with Jack Nicholson at a Family Video store on DVD. I wanted to rent it but someone had beat me to it.

I wouldn't say I'm riled - rather I'm amuzed. I get very amuzed at all the bonehead preachers and legalistic and religious folk who have lately come out of the closet to educate us (ahem) and warn us against (terrify us) about the sins of VPW, etc. et al. They want to make sure you're very afraid of TWI and VPW, and that you stay far, far away. Be very, very, careful and heed their advice because the way they see it - ol' Doc Vic is going to jump out of his grave, come back to life and rape your sister in Christ. (Somebody's been a watchin' a way to many of them thar Hollywood horror flicks, me thinks!)

I wasn't making and I don't believe I have made a comparison between the ministry of the Apostle Paul and the other Paul - V. Paul W. that is. I do believe I made a valid comparison perhaps between the ministry of Martin Luther and VPW, especially where I made the comment when Martin Luther said unto Philipp Melanchthon, "Philipp go and sin, and sin boldly!" I heard that VPW read a lot of Martin Luther's works. Maybe he thought the advice that Luther had given to Melanchthon would be good enough for him as well? In many respects one could say Martin Luther was like the VPW of his day. Was Martin Luther giving Melanchton an excuse to sin or was Luther absolving him from sin when he said that to him? I don't believe so. Luther was trying to shake him up - trying to wake him up and make him realize that there is no sin BIG ENOUGH that he could commit that could ever seperate him from the love of God. But if sin is what troubles you and you have still got a problem with sin or someone elses sin for that matter, then I've got some troubling news for you. THERE ARE and there have been a lot bigger sinners in the Chrisitian church than VPW! And guess what - there will be even bigger sinners in the Christian church than VPW coming in the future!!! NOW THAT'S TROUBLING NEWS --- well, it can be troubling news for some people I imagine. All we hear about and get shoved down our throats by all the "T-bones" (bonehead preachers) out there in the world is how there IS this GREAT BIG SIN you can commit (but in most cases they are often referring to someone they really don't like) that can separate you from God. They even use the sins of VPW as an example. They love to pick and choose and quote verse upon verse of scripture about drunkeness, fornication, adultry, etc., etc., etc. and how all those who commit such deeds (and to put it in the words of Jesus himself so they can appear authentic and genuine to everyone) SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God!. Yep - you can almost sense their bony little Pharasaic finger pointing at you (or the person they really don't like) condemning you, making you feel guilty and judging you for some sin you committed or a sin you haven't committed. Instead of rather lifting the weight of sin, they are besetting the weight of sin and its consequences on people whenever they get it in their boney little head it's their job rather than the the holy spirit's job. What happens when they don't get the results they expect? Why you're one of those "unrepentent sinners!" - and that's when you see their blood boil as they end up getting at you and very OFFENDED! Frankly speaking, I love offending legalistic and religious people. It doesn't bother me or offend me one little bit.

Funny how you (as well as others) assume VPW was an unrepentant sinner - like you know whether or not he truly repented - and then go on to say only God knows what's going on in the heart of someone. I imagine it takes a lot of humility on your part to take the place of God to know whether or not somebody (VPW in this case) truly repentend in their heart. But I see you completely missed the entire point of my post and choose to focus on sin (specifically VPW's) rather than address whether he strove to have a clear conscience toward God or not. Whether or not VPW actually strove to have a clear conscience toward men is a completely different issue. I am sure there were times he got very angry and mad at people, maybe he even treated them unjustly, etc. - on top of all the other things people have accused him of. I am also well aware of the fact these people feel that they have earned the right to say any damnable thing they want about VPW without any question - and never be questioned themselves in return. One of the reasons I started this tread is because the apostle Paul said that he "exercised himself to have always a conscience void of offence - not just toward God, but also toward men. (See Acts 24:16). The question that I am posing is - is it possible (or to use a Wayism - available) to always have a conscience void of offence toward men? I don't think the bible (specifically this verse) is teaching us that it is available to have a conscience void of offence toward every man that is living on planet earth. The reason I don't believe it is available is because Jesus Christ himself offended people. Jesus Christ offended the Pharisees, the Saducees, and all the other religious leaders of his day. But if the Word of God says the apostle Paul exercised himself to have a conscience void of offence not only toward God but also toward men - then exactly which "men" was Paul referring to in that verse? It certainly can't be every man living on the planet that he was talking about - because we know Jesus offended certain groups of "religious" people, and the apostle Paul certainly was not Christ or better than Jesus Christ himself. So which "men" was the apostle Paul specifically addressing and talking about in this verse? I believe it is referring only men who are likewise: "exercising themselves to have a conscience void of offence toward God." That seems to be the pattern the apostle Paul is setting forth in this verse, because man's first duty is to God Himself alone, and not unto man.

I often wonder how VPW would answer all these accusations that are brought against him if he were still alive today. Could he follow suit with the likes of the apostle Paul as recorded there in Acts 24? Acts 24 tells us how Tertullus had accused Paul before the governor, accussed him of profaning the temple and being a mover of sediton among the Jews. The apostle Paul was accused of many things which the Jews assented saying those things he were accused of were true. Of course, the apostle Paul had the chance in that record to answer for himself to the accusations that were brought against him, but VPW can not do that as VPW is dead. Anybody can bring an accusation against somebody else and tell you their side of the story. The reason most people listen to all the bad news and all the gossip is because that kind of news caters to mans basic deprived human nature. They don't print tabloids because nobody wants to buy them. The courtrooms of America are also teeming to the brim as we have become one of the most litigious countries in the world. One reason why all those accusations against VPW have continued on for decades is because what one person considers a standard for proof does not measure up to another persons standard. All some people need and will accept as proof are other people telling you their stories, while other people need that DNA, hard core, scientific evidence. The question is, can you truly prove to anybody else any of the things that VPW has been accused of? NO! Because whatever you consider "proof" can easily fall far short of another persons standard for proof. But then, proving offences and who is guilty of them is not really the heart of the issue. But that is what many want GSC to be about -- PROVING TO YOU SOMEBODY IS GUILTY OF AN OFFENCE! What needs to be proven is not the offence, but whether or not you are someone who like the apostle Paul concluded in Acts 24:16 "And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men." Notice the succession in that verse. First it is toward God, and then toward man - not the other way around. Why? Because it may not always be possible for someone to have a conscious void of offence toward other people. In fact, Jesus himself said in the Gospels that offences would come. The problem is, many people think they are serving God by blaming others, accusing others, and by placing some "guilty verdict" on them. The scriptures say and teach us differently. Hebrews tells us that we must "cleanse (purge) our conscious from dead works to serve the living God" (Hebrews 9 14) and the only way to "draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith is to have your hearts "sprinkled" (cleansed - rhantizo. Sprinkled is a weak translation. This is a real shower!) from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water" (Hebrews 10:22). Why? So that we can serve the living God. I'm amazed at how long Christians will go with a guilty conscience. Christians will live with a guilty conscience and they don't know how to get rid of it. They've asked God to forgive them many, many times - they've even tried to make up for their sin but there's still that "nagging" feeling that God doesn't like them. They think if they were more like "that person" then God would love them more. Brothers and sisters - YOU ARE ALL GOING TO SIN - but that's not the question. The real question is if you're going to strive for a clear conscience. One of the requirements of a deacon is that he must keep hold of the truths of the faith with a clear conscience. One of the attributes of a mature Christian is NOT the fact that they never sin or stumble, but that they can fall and get back up again because they know they are forgiven and that God loves them. A Christian must learn how to distinguish between the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the guilt of their flesh and the devil. Many Christians today can not. The holy spirit lives inside of us, but we can grieve the Holy Spirit. He's telling us when we're not living in accordance with God's will. That's His job. It's not yours or anybody else's! God has given us a conscience for a reason so we know when we are doing something wrong. That's a good thing. That's conviction, but conviction is only to be temporary. Conviction is to give you power and a desire to do the right thing. Guilt only weakens us. It hangs over us and it "zaps" us of all our power to live a Godly life. What guilt does, is it maintains the power of sin over us. You see, guilt, as some Christians see it, think that it will give them power over some sin in their life - that if I'm really sorry for this sin then I won't do it again. BULL ....! It's not how sorry you are about your sin that will give you any power over it. It is your belief in God's forgiveness and His grace. Maybe you grew up in one of those "legalistic" churches. I've met people who grew up in those churches - churches that "make rules" and then make people feel like "second-rate" Christians because they didn't follow the rules. There are pastors out there who love to control people with fear and guilt - and they love to scare people not into sinning, but it just doesn't work. God Himself is not into scaring you. It is not guilt that will give you the power to say no to sin - it is grace and gratitude. Titus 2. What does it say there? "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (v11). It is this grace that teaches us to say no to worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright, Godly lives. The grace of God teaches us to say no to sin. Do you know why some pastors don't like to teach about grace? The same reason Paul states in Romans 5 and 6. He's teaching about grace there, but what they don't understand is the power of gratitude. I believe it was Philipp Melanchthon who followed Martin Luther. Melanchthon was to spend the rest of his life studying and defending the Evangelical theology of the Reformation. Their relationship developed over the years into a deep, life-long friendship. Melanchthon was to say of Luther: "I would rather die than be separated from this man." Melanchthon once wrote a letter to Martin Luther and asked him, "Martin, is God's grace sufficient to cover all of our sins?" Martin Luther responded and said, "Phillipp - go and sin, and sin boldly!" That's an interesting response. What was Martin Luther trying to do there - was he trying to outdo VPW? Hardly. He was trying to shake Phillip up - he was essentially saying, "Philipp - DON'T BE AFRAID OF SIN!" Don't be scared because that is NOT what is going to give you power over sin! It is your love for God and the gratitude you have for all that he has forgiven you for. Pastors who want to preach legalism and the law don't understand this power of gratitude. But the more you know how much God has forgiven you for, the more we don't want to sin. It is not the fear that God will reject us if we do, we just don't want to out of gratitude for what He has done. The grace that He shows us - we don't want to take advantage of that grace. We don't want to turn on our savior. Grace is what gives us power, and that is what overcomes sin. Not only does the devil love to accuse you of sin, but he also loves to accuse you of things you've never done. The devil working through self-righteous religious people is constantly accusing you of your motives - ever notice? Maybe the devil is working directly on you. Have you ever struggled with questioning your own motives? You know, I want to do this good deed but is it for the wrong reason? Well don't worry about your motives. You don't know your own motives! You can't know your motives as only God can know your motives. That's why you have to give it to God. You just thank God and say, "God, to the best of my knowledge I'm doing this with a pure heart" - and then go do it." Don't let the devil accuse you of sins that you haven't even committed! He's the accuser of the brethren. HOW do you you respond to sin? Well, you think about that, and then ask if you really enjoy what Christ has purchased for you. It is the love we have for God and for what He has done for us and will continue to do for us that is much more powerful motivation not to sin than the fear of God. Why don't you want to sin - really? Is it because you are afraid of God or is it because you love God? There is a big difference there. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between GUILT and GRACE! That's what I'm trying to say, and the pastors and the people who try to motivate you by fear and guilt just don't "get it!" Love is a much more powerful motivator. Look, whatever you do, it's already "in the budget." It's already been paid for and it doesn't matter. You see, God doesn't want us paying for our sin twice. We end up paying for our sin twice when we do it, and then we pay for it again when we feel guilty about it and wallow in our guilt. Jesus Christ already paid the penalty for our sin, and the best way you can honor him for what he did for you is to accept his forgiveness and the payment he made for everything you do. That's the best way you can honor him. You don't honor his sacrifice for sin by living in guilt and being full of fear. Here's a good question for you. Are there any sins you are feeling guilty about right now? Think about this. Right now, what you need to do is realize you are forgiven for that area of disobedience. The reason why people don't know the power of forgiveness is because they often experience the power of bitterness! They don't understand how insidious it is and all the diseases it brings that humans are terrified of - bitterness is at the top of the list! It's so contagious, so easy to contract. Why? Because there are so many people offending us! SO MANY PEOPLE MAKING US MAD!! ---- AND HURTING US!!! It is so easy to catch and it can be VERY PAINFUL to get rid of .... but if you don't get rid of it ... Well, you can't imagine what bitterness can lead to. IT CAN DRIVE YOU INSANE! It is what led someone whom I cared for greatly committing suicide. Yeah, refusing to forgive someone is a really dangerous thing to do. It gives the devil an opportunity to enter your life. We say that we forgive, but we often only forgive people from the head and not from the heart. That's why things aren't working between us. We aren't even honest enough to recognize those whom we have hardness in our hearts toward. Is there anyone God, who in my heart of hearts I am a little hard toward? Someone I feel that way about? Not recognizing those we have hardness in our heart toward is a clue that we haven't truly forgiven them. Maybe we forgave them from the head, but not from the heart. You know, the real reason why we don't forgive them? Do you want to know the real reason why we can't forgive others from the heart? It is because we aren't honest with God about what their sin has cost us. -- THAT IS WHY WE DON'T FORGIVE FROM THE HEART! We won't be honest about that pain. Well, when you pray to God to forgive someone, you be honest with God with what their sin against you has cost you. YOU be honest with God about the hurt and the pain. That's the reason why people don't forgive, because THEY don't want to GO BACK there! That's right. WE don't want to go back to that place where that person hurt us really, really bad. We've just been trying to forget about it, but we've never forgiven. There's a big difference between trying to forget and forgiving. That's right. You see, if you try to forget it then it still controls you. The devil still has a foothold in it when you're just trying to forget it. When you forgive, then he's kicked out - it's gone, you're free! But you've got to be honest. It's like when you have a big wound. The easiest thing to do is to just "slap a band-aid" on there and cover it up. You just cover it up. After a week or two you see this 'yucky stuff' oozing out of it. "Well, I'll just get a bigger band-aid and put it on there!" No more 'yucky stuff' --- but it keeps on hurting. Then your arm starts getting green. "Well, I'm not going to deal with this. I'm just going to get this "arm cast" and keep on covering it up and not deal with it." Just put layers and layers on top of it - not really deal with it. Sooner or later you got to come to the point and say, "God, take care of this. This is starting to "smell" and HURT real bad - and then He starts unwrapping all those "band-aid" layers you put on there and you see what God wants to do. Yeah, it's going to hurt. I'm not kidding. I'm going to be honest with you and tell you that it is going to hurt - but just for a little while. God wants to take His Q-tip with his alcohol on it and dig into that wound and clean it all up. But that's the only way its going to get healed - that's the only way. Yes, it does hurt to go back and be honest with God about how someone hurt you - and give them to over to God and truly forgive them - and then - LET IT GO! But some people want to hold onto all that. They don't want to let it go --- AND IT'S LITERALLY KILLING THEM! But you have to let it go. THEN (and don't you miss this part --- you have to believe God will replace whatever their weakness or their sin has cost you. You HAVE to believe this otherwise you will NOT and CAN NOT forgive them and let it go. God WILL replace what their sin has cost you, especially if you need it. Now don't be dishonest and try to tell God you DON'T need it if you do! The truth of the matter is, their sin cost you something and you have to be honest with God and believe that God is big enough to replace whatever their sin cost you. God is more than willing to make up for it and replace it if you need it. He'll make up for it. Then turn them and their sin against you over to God. Turn them over to God because you're not Him, and let them go. How will you know when you have truly forgiven someone from the heart and not from your head? This is how you will know.

Yes, it is God's will one learns something from these experiences, but you (like many others) end up confusing God's will with the bad experience, or end up concluding God's will is or = the bad experience. Read the book of Job. Job had a lot of bad experiences happen to him. God didn't prevent any of those bad things from happening to Job. It doesn't say that those bad things happened to him because he was a bad or a wicked person either. The apostle Paul also said it. He said, I have learned both - how to be abased and how to abound. How to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. (Phillipians 4:12) Yep, all of us have experienced bad things at some point and time in our life. There's no promise in the Word of God that says once you become a Christian you won't have any more bad experiences in the future either. So what is the lesson God is trying to teach us in these experiences? Simply that He is our sufficiency in everything and in all things, and that we should learn to put our trust in Him. Looking back on a lot of my own bad experiences, I can say a lot of them occurred because I hadn't put my trust completely in God. Many of those things happened because I trusted in myself or because I had trusted someone else. Speaking solely from the examples you provided - where is one placing their trust? Why do people still blame a TWI leader, a pastor or anybody else for that matter. Why else? Because they "trusted" them. Oh yeah, it isn't something we like or that we even want to admit many times, but it's still the truth.

I believe this is a prime example of some TWI leaders who originally took some good advice and wisdom but made it legalistic. Of course, if you're someone who has made a lot of enemies, it might be wise to take someone along with you no matter where you go.

It was the same woman who believed for the red drapes who killed her son. There's just not many women like that around you know.

I see a lot of interesting responses and dialog happening here between people. It only goes to prove that many think they are on this great mission for Jesus Christ (whether it is to expose TWI, or to prove they're doctrinally wrong, or whatever else) but do any of you really understand and know why Christianity today is so pathetic? It's mainly because Christians don't truly love one another. Oh yeah, we're all on this great mission today to "save the world" from TWI or from something else we feel that is real horrible and bad. There are a lot of great missionary societies out there, but the reason they don't really have a message is because they don't truly love one another. We don't have a message of anything that is more powerful for the looking, seeking, world or any other religion that's out there simply because we are not truly loving one another. What do we really have to give to one another? Jesus Christ said, "A new command I give you, that you love one another as I have loved you." Why did he say that? Why did Jesus Christ say that it is so important to love one another? Well, he gave the answer right there in God's Word - By this all men will know that you are my disciples - if you love one another. O.K. Did Jesus Christ say that people would know that we are something different because of our particular commitment to a cause or because of our sacrifices? No. He said what wil make us stand out to the world is the kind of relationships that you have with one another while you are reaching the world. That is what will make the world marvel. I realize there is a whole teaching or doctrine out there that is very popular today called, "POWER EVANGELISM". Anyone familiar with the phrase? The idea in "Power Evangelism" is that you have to be a miracle worker to be an effective evangelist in foreign countries. That is what really gets peoples attention with the gospel if you can heal someone of a physical ailment while you're preaching the gospel to them. Well, it only works for a short period of time. But the reason I am writing is to remind you and to tell you that the miracle that Jesus Christ gave to us to prove to this world that we truly have God, is our love for one another. I would rather demonstrate to this busted, broken down, beaten weary world a supernatural acceptance, forgiveness, and respect for my Christian brother that is right next to me than I would want to perform a physical miracle on someone. Why? Because the world knows even witch doctors can perform miracles! The devil himself can do miracles, but only Christians can really love people. That's our ace in the hole. That's the only thing we have that the rest of this world doesn't have - is that we can really love people. So what happens when we don't? When we don't - then we really don't have much of a mission. That is why Jesus Christ said, "No greater love than this - that I would lay down my life for --- who? A stranger? Is that what he said? Or for an enemy? Is that what he said? No. He said, "There is no greater love than this, that you would lay your life down for your friends. It's like I have been trying to tell you earlier and all along - and the real reason I started this thread topic. It's because: YOU KNOW THEM! Jesus Christ understood that. He knew that as we got close to one another that there is going to come a point in our relationships with each other that we are going to STOP liking one another, because man --- There's just something that this person did that really offended me! That's right. I don't like "this thing" about "that person." This person makes me uncomfortable - or whatever other excuse you would make to cool your relationship with that person or whatever other excuse you would make to get out of that situation. I DON'T WANT TO BE WITH THAT PERSON --- Well, that's the point where you stop liking them and you got to start loving them. That is where love begins - where liking ends. Many people find this out when they get married. You marry that girl because you really like her, but the only thing that will keep you married is that you're going to love her even when you don't like her. That's right. You're not always going to like her (or like him). That's why you have to learn how to love her (or to love him). That's the model that Jesus Christ gave to us. Yes that is the model Jesus gave to us, but when people get into ministry they often end up believing the mission is much more important than the relationship. NO! We don't have a mission if we don't have the relationships. Yes, I understand that there are legitimate and biblical reasons why one should leave a marriage or even leave their church. There are legitamate and biblical reasons for both. But one should be very, very careful in making those decisions. DON'T EVER let it be because of a lack of love on your part. I know there are matters of conscious. If someone asks you to do something that violates your conscious and if you can't work it out with them - then yes, that may be a very good and valid reason to leave that relationship or leave that church. Men of God aren't perfect, but if they have a lifestyle that you don't respect, then God certainly doesn't expect you to follow them. So there are legitimate reasons why one would leave a marriage or leave a church. But then again, what are the things that would tempt you to leave and sacrifice the relationships you have with them? There may come a point where you think if I left these people it wouldn't be a big deal, but there may eventually come a day when you realize what's really important - the relationship. IT'S NOT WHAT 'I' WANTED TO DO, it was the relationship. That's the will of God right there - in the relationship. Some people may say, "Well "so-and-so" offended me, and it's just easier for me to go find another church or to find another relationship somewhere else". Is that a reason God will agree with? OF COURSE YOU'RE GOING TO BE OFFENDED!!! We're humans and we're not perfect. As you get close and you become best friends with someone then you're going to become offended. You're not going to become best friends with anyone who has never offended you. If your best friend has never offended you, then I would say that you're not best friends yet. It's not until they "tick-you-off" and you've got to accept them and love them anyway - that well, now you're talking. You don't know what best friends are until that happens. The question I want to ask is, "Do you have that in your life?" Well, you got to have people in your life that can offend you like that. Many times its a good thing to be offended because that means you're getting close. That means we're getting beyond just liking each other and we're starting to learn to love one another. I know its so much more comfortable to be where everybody just likes one another. But is that what "authentic Christianity" is about? Where everybody just likes one another? NO! No it's not, and truthfully speaking, I don't like everybody here nor do I like everybody that is around me either. (I'm not going to name names.) But authentic Christianity shows up only when you're NOT getting along - when you're NOT liking one another and you're learning to love one another. Why do people join a church anyway? People join a church because they like the church, but people will stay with a church because they love it. If you just join a church because you like it, then what are you going to do when they do something you don't like? When you don't like them anymore? You're going to leave. I've seen that happen over and over too. I personally know a pastor in a small community, and as pastors they get together about once a month and they talk about different people. They know who the "church hoppers" are. They say, "Hey, so-and-so left my church - they'll probably be showing up in your church next." Sure enough, they do. They know who they are. They're never happy because they're just looking for a church that they're going to like instead of love. There's a big difference there. The devil will always give you a reason to leave a church you like. Maybe someone reproves you for something. You start getting close to people and they start getting close to you, and then they point out something in your life and it kind of hurts. It hurts for a couple reasons. It hurts because: 1. Gee, they exposed me ... and 2. You know it's right. You know that it's true and it hurts. So - are you going to leave? If you have a friend like that, then they are good as gold. A person who loves you enough to tell you when you're wrong is a gold mine. Don't ever leave that. It's such a valuable thing, but you're going to be tempted to think, "They did that because they don't like me, or they did that because they are judging me." No. Most of the time people aren't talking about that stuff unless they really love you. It takes a lot of "gumption" to confront people about sin or a need in their life. I sure don't like doing it. Most pastors don't like doing it because they want people to like them all the time. But I know from God's Word there are times I will have to confront people who may have offended me, so I must do it if I am going to stand approved before God. Sometimes people don't know how much I love them, so they leave, and they make a big mistake because they had someone in their life that loved them enough to tell them when they were wrong. In the Old Testament David needed a man like that. He didn't have anyone who would stand up to him and tell him when he was wrong. Proverbs 27:6 says, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful." What do you want? Do you just want to be "kissed" by everybody? They sure did a lot of that in TWI. But I really don't want that in my life, that "love-bombing" kind of stuff. Do you have a friend in your life you can trust to wound you? Then that's valuable stuff. That's growing up. If you don't want someone in your life telling you that you're wrong, then you need to grow up because you need that for the long haul. Maybe you left a church or a relationship because you wanted to fully develop your potential, or because the people you fellowshipped with didn't appreciate you enough or what you have to offer. I've been tempted that way before. It's kind of twisted thinking because God gave us our talents and abilities to operate within a body. They don't work if your not linked into a body. Many people left the body just for the purpose to "serve somewhere else" simply because they felt they weren't appreciated, but in reality they left the body hanging and deserted. That's essentially what the apostle Paul said there in 1 Corinthians 13 - "Oh yeah, you have talent and you have great abilities. But they really don't amount to anything and they are worthless simply because you don't have love. There are so many people in Christianity today going from church to church just to be able to use their talents. Maybe you don't realize it because you don't have much exposure to "Amercanized Christianity." I mean, do also realize how many pastors who also go from church to church with the idea of "personal advancement?" Even they are "church-hopping so they can reach their fullest potential! And they're using the church. They're acting as if the people in this church exist for me - for them to advance my gifts. It's so twisted and upside down. I got to go where my gifts and talents and abilities can be best utilized. I got to be faithful to what Jesus has given me by abandoning the saints. It's really a sick thing, and not very biblical. I don't know what they're thinking when they go from church to church. I really don't know. Do you think they really love those people? I don't think so. And do they really have a best friend in the church themselves? No way. And they don't have men around them and because of that they are lonely and that is often the reason why they fail. It's them and the elder board, and they don't get along with the elder board, so they got to go to the next church. These are pastors. So what do you think is happening in the body of believers? They are missing it. They are missing it big time.

Ah... apologies. Offended people always think apologies are owed to them. When that doesn't happen according to their terms and conditions they remain offended and become self-righteous and judgmental themselves. Was it something someone did that offended you, or was it the truth that was preached to you that you didn’t like that offended you? The Jews had the truth taught to them and they stumbled and became offended. They didn’t like the truth that justification and salvation came by the cross of Christ. They thought the way to being justified was through the keeping of the law, so they stumbled at the truth. They stumbled at the truth and couldn’t receive it. If a truth from the Word of God comes to you and if you don’t walk in that truth, then you also become offended. Now most people don’t call it that. What people don’t realize is that there are two sources for being offended. Is it something someone did wrong to you, or was it the truth that came to you that you didn’t like? The Jews had the truth presented to them, that salvation was through faith and not by the works of the law and they were offended by the claims of Jesus Christ. They thought the law was the way to be justified and sanctified before God so they stumbled at the faith of the cross. (1 Corinthians 1:22,23) Now the way one gets out of offence is by realizing what they stumbled at. The way one gets out of the offence of someone who did you wrong is different than the way you get out of the offence of stumbling over the truth of God’s Word. Well, you may disagree. If it is the truth, then it doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree – or even if I agree or disagree. If we don’t walk in the light of the truth then we are offended. What does that mean? It means we stumble. That means you’re not going any further because when light comes you have to walk in that light, otherwise you stumble. It is the entrance of God’s Word that gives light. When light comes then you walk in that, so when the Word of God is taught and more light comes to you as you walk in that light further revelation also comes to you. But if you don’t walk in the light, then you cease to walk altogether. You can’t run the race that is set before you as you can’t even walk without the light. When Jesus preached the Word of God many were offended at his claims, of who he claimed to be, etc. I always thought if someone was offended at me then I must have done something wrong. Yes, sometimes you have to ask yourself – did I do them wrong? If it’s true then its true and I need to repent, but if it’s not true then I don’t need to ask for forgiveness for something I didn’t do. You don’t owe someone an apology for something you didn’t do, and you don’t have to apologize for something you didn’t do. The reason we think people owe us an apology is because we think they wronged us, and the reason they don’t apologize is simply because they don’t believe they wronged us at all. But I was talking earlier about the process of restoring fellowship with one who was offended. In that process repentance is not involved (repentance is for the unsaved sinner) but that of forgiveness (forgiveness is for the one who is saved). Now I haven't read anywhere in the Word of God it is always guaranteed one can restore the fellowship they once had with someone. There are many factors that come into play as to whether that is possible or not – i.e. what was the relationship before the offence took place? What value do you have (and what value does the other person have) toward that relationship? Those are probably the primary questions. Many times the reason we feel people owe us an apology is largely because we feel something of value was lost. The reason someone may not apologize to us is largely due to what they value themselves out of the relationship. If LCM and Rosie etc., have not apologized (and they don’t intend to) then what value is the relationship to them – or even to you for that matter? Perhaps the better question to ask yourself is: What is it that you value the most? Because whatever you value the most is your god – (or your God) and there certainly are a lot of gods alive and well in America today, not necessarily the true God. Now a lot of people value money more than a lot of other things, perhaps even more than the relationships they have with others. Now there is nothing wrong with money in and of itself, unless you are relying on it and somehow it meets your needs far more than what you are relying on God to meet your needs. Yeah, money is one of the many gods that people do have. But I believe there is something we as Americans today have come to value far more than money, and that is: privacy. That’s right. We don’t want people getting into our lives, or being involved in our lives or having to share our lives with one another – the essence of what real relationships are about. Many times the god that we are worshipping is simply ourselves - and we have not come to realize or have dealt well at all with the god of our own privacy. That too, I believe, also comes into play as to whether or not you are capable of restoring the relationship you had with someone who may be offended.

The reason I started this thread is because some of us have been studying about offence and how offence is a trap of the enemy. I realize this is not a topic people normally get up and applaud you for and shake your hand after the sermon. I don't expect people to get up and run up and down aisles and shout "Glory Hallelujah" - but if one is willing to do what the Word of God says then you might run and shout later because it will keep you from getting trapped and under the enemy’s control. Another reason I started this topic is because some of us recognize offence is a device or tool the enemy uses to control people. But we also know we have been delivered from the control of the enemy when we recognize the devices and the tools that he uses to control us. The reason I know many are being controlled is because they keep bringing up offenses that happened to them many, many years ago – like they happened yesterday afternoon. The Word of God instructs us not to give place to the devil, and I recognize this is one area where many people give place to him. Basically offence is something that causes one to stumble. If you look it up in the bible it means a stumbling stone, it also means bait - like bait on a mousetrap. It's something that lures one into a trap - like bait is intended to do. The only way to stay out of the trap is one must first recognize the bait so they won't get into the trap. The Word of God says we have been delivered from Satan's control, yet many fail to recognize the devices and tools the devil uses to control them as well as to control others. The way to stay out of that trap is for you to stay free of offence in your heart - keeping a clear heart free from offence toward other believers (and other people in general) and living above what is commonly called offence. Satan traps people whenever they are in offence. We should believe the Word of God whether or not it appears like a person got trapped or not. It might not seem like, well, so-and-so didn't have any ill effects. Well I don't want to them to and I'm not praying for them that they do. That's not my heart for them. But it is affecting their life. For example: I can't treat you nice and then treat your children mean and have it be all right with you. The way I would treat your children would affect your relationship and my relationship between each other. The same thing is true of God - in that you have done it unto the least of my brethren, you have done it unto me. So then, it's not possible to maintain good fellowship (I didn't say relationship, as we are all related through the blood of Jesus Christ on legal grounds) but I'm talking about fellowship. It's not possible to maintain good fellowship and live in offence toward other believers. The Word says simply if we can't live in love with our brother, then how is it possible to love God? We don't love God if we don't love our brother. Now that's cutting it real tight, but it's right. It's not always an outward reaction that people demonstrate when they are in offence. Sometimes it's an inward seething, an inward anger - it's the silent treatment, things like that. A person can have offense in their heart and they aren't displaying it outwardly. It's a condition of the heart, and there are things the Word of God tells us we should avoid getting into our heart. Psalm 119:165 says: "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them." You can't claim you love God and still be living in offence toward others - because the Word of God says NOTHING will offend those who love His law, who love His Word. Nothing can offend those who love God's Word. Nothing can offend them, trip them or trap them because they are free from Satan's control. Am I expecting everyone to agree with me on God's Word? No, because I already know not everyone agrees with the Word of God. That's never been a surprise to me. I am just saying what the Word of God says, that it is possible to live free from offence. But I also realize those who do believe God's Word have picked up a lot of bad spiritual habits. It's a bad spiritual habit to get into - to grab onto offence whenever somebody has wronged you. Now some people have already responded on this thread and on this topic like I WAS PERSONALLY ADDRESSING THEM! They must think that I am saying all of this to personally get to them - just like they are the guilty party. Now I know people can teach things that aren’t the Word of God, but if something is taught from the bible and we didn’t like it and we think, well, he’s just saying that to me and he’s trying to get to me, well how would I know whether or not it was you or somebody else who was offended? I think some people must live on the 'sticky side of Velcro’, because they'll grab onto any offence whenever it comes. Well you don't have to be the "sticky side of Velcro" all your life! Some bad thought comes along and they just grab onto it with their mind. Maybe some people were raised that way, where they learned to live in offence with the people they were related to. They are always taking the offence and then talking about someone, always bitter toward somebody so it's a harder habit for them to break. But one can still break it, because if you love the Word of God enough then you won't be offended and nothing will offend you. It's really not worth it, as the offence not only separates you from people, but it also separates you from God. Now the bible says offences will come, just as Matthew 18:7 says, but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! A lot of people think they can find some place here upon earth, or some other church or some other relationship where they can live and be free of offences, yet the Word of God tells us that offences will come. Yet most people believe if someone does something to offend me then I'll go somewhere else - I'll find another church or I’ll find another relationship with someone in whom I won't be offended with. I know what some people are thinking. You're thinking, well I love people just like the bible teaches me to. I’m not offended because I don't have a problem with anybody here or anybody else. OK, so you're someone who's not offended. Perhaps that is because you don't know someone well enough or you're not close enough for someone to do anything to offend you. Real love begins when you know someone well enough and your close enough to them that they do something you need to love them for. Now that I am past this point I want to go on to: How to deal with the offended person. How do you deal with someone who has offended you or an offended person that is in your life? We all know that we can control our own life, but we can't control the lives of other people. Now some people might be here to judge others and also to judge their brother or sister in Christ, but you can't control whether they are offended or not. I'm not here to control others and whether they are offended. I can't do any of that ... I don't have the power to do that and neither do you nor anybody else. In other words, we can't control others if they choose to be offended. We can't control any of that. The Word of God says, as much as lieth in you to live peaceably with all men. (Romans 12:18) I’ll readily admit there are people - even other believers who aren't in fellowship with me today. Why, because they are offended. But then it usually is with someone who is in authority that we are offended with, and it doesn’t have to be a spiritual leader. It could even be your boss at work or some other authority. The Word of God gives instructions on how to deal with that, but not everyone wants to live according to those instructions. Ever notice how there are some people who live to tell you all about what somebody did to them or what someone did to somebody else? Some people must think that your ear is their trash can. So how does one deal with all of that? That's what I wanted to get to. How to deal with all that, because sometimes people are still holding onto things - things that happened to them long ago and you can't control any of that. Sometimes I wonder if people majored in it – they got their "Doctorate" in it - because they appear to be living in offence all the time. If they're not already offended by something that someone did unto them, then they’ll pick up on something that someone did to somebody else just so they can be offended by it. Now they are offended by that person just because that person treated somebody else wrong. Some people don't know how to live without offence. Sometimes I think it must be the best friend they ever had. It's always with them like their best friend. Here's a basic scripture to start with, Matthew 18:15 "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him (many times we prefer to tell somebody else other than the one who offended us) his fault between thee and him alone; if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother." Notice this verse says you are to tell them their fault between you and them alone, not between another person. But it also says, and IF he shall hear thee. The goal of course is the last part of that verse - thou hast gained thy brother. The goal here is a restoration of fellowship. Satan is the author of division and offence divides. That is the reason why its one of his tools and devices. It separates believers. It separates families, and it separates loved ones. The goal again is to restore the fellowship that you once had because this offence or this wrong has broken the fellowship you once had. Notice that verse also says IF he will hear you. Of course what that means is that sometimes they will and sometimes they won't. But the thing I wanted to point out from this verse is the goal - that's the main thing. The goal is restoration of fellowship. So if you are looking to regain the fellowship you had with them then you have to go directly to the person - to the source itself. Jesus Christ is telling you how to do it - to face it head on. Don't just stay away from the person who offended you and say, "Well, they're upset at me." No, you go talk to them. If you haven't talked to someone in awhile then thoughts creep in about what you think they are doing, about what they are thinking or perhaps even how they think about you. When you go talk to someone it usually breaks that all down. Get to know the person all over again. The bible doesn't say for you to wait for the person who has offend you to come to you and say that they are sorry - it says - YOU GO TO THEM. The reason they won't come to you is because often the person who offended you doesn't realize they did or said something to you that was offensive, or that they did something that hurt you. So they will never come to you simply because they don't realize they treated you wrong. Now maybe they should come to you and you think that they should, but that's beside the point. Just don't seethe there yourself and just get angrier at them simply because they aren’t showing up on your doorstep or calling you up on the phone to apologize and thereby separating yourself even further from them. Go to that person and talk about it. Its best if you go to them shortly after the offence happened and not years later. Satan is always trying to bring division between people. We are to seek restoration of fellowship because that is the goal. But the person who only wants to separate is the one who is wrong spirited. Separation is a wrong spirit, and we’re not supposed to be wrong spirited. The reason that it is a wrong spirit is because according to the Word of God we're to have the goal of restoring our fellowship with each other – not that of separation. The sin is to let it go un-confronted. Even mature believers don't often deal with things the way the Word of God instructs us to deal with them, and when that happens then the situation only worsens. Well I know what you’re thinking - and it's a good question. That is, "What if the person who offended me doesn't want to respond?" The next verse tells you what to do - take one or two more with you so that every word can be established. Take some other people with you who know what the situation is and what is going on. Anytime you take a contention to someone who is not aware of it or who's not any kind of an authority to do anything about it, then it only makes the situation worse because you have only increased and spread the strife between you and the other person. In the mouth of two or three witnesses is an Old Testament reference talking about someone who brings an accusation against an elder or leader in the nation of Israel. The Old Testament instruction was: against an elder receive not an accusation, but in the mouth of two or three witnesses. In other words, just one person shooting their mouth off and blabbing against a leader was something to be ignored – it was not to be listened to. Then it says if someone brings a false witness or accusation and they wanted to have the leader removed or have some kind of penalty brought against the leader, and if it was found to be false evidence, then the person who brought the false evidence or accusation was to have that happen to them that they wanted to have done to the leader. Was this procedure always followed in TWI? Maybe at times it was and maybe at times it was not. But if that person or that leader who offended you has been or was removed from a position of authority in your life, why are you still holding onto their offence? If you’re still holding onto it then you are still placing yourself under their control because their offence is still controlling you. The question you need to ask yourself is this: Am I just following men or am I truly following God? If you are following men, then their faults and their offences will only become a trap for you, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But if you’re someone who is following God, then nothing will or should offend you just as Psalm 119:165 says. But you’re putting yourself in opposition to the Lords work if you are someone who is just spreading false accusations about someone else. Even if the accusation is true, you still don’t have any business shooting your mouth off spreading it. I know of a minister (they’re not affiliated with TWI – it was with Oral Roberts I believe) who was accused of sexual impropriety, was living in sin and got caught. Someone went to the media about it and they stuck a camera and a microphone in his face and said, “What do you think about all of this?” They simply answered, “Its family business.” Now if someone in your own family messes up and does something, they fall into sin you don’t get up in front of everybody or get on the news media and talk about everything. If a person is walking in love then they need to be very cautious before they step out and say things, before you side in with an accuser. Now I don’t know all that went on or still goes on with them, because I don’t live with them. I have also heard about a well known minister living in Tulsa accused of impropriety, but I am not here blabbing to you about all of that because I don’t know all the details about it, as I don’t live in Tulsa or any of that. Of the things I do know it’s a misunderstanding. The thing is, just don’t listen to all the accusations because you are doing more of a disservice to the body of Christ than a Godly service. Now I’m not saying they are innocent on everything because I don’t know all the details. But I am not here to say they are guilty either. People shouldn’t be tried in the “court of our opinion” anyway. But what about dealing with the person who has been offended. How do you approach that situation? Galatians 6:1 says, “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.” Wow! Again the goal is restoration, just like what is also stated in Matthew 18. But here it talks about restoring someone in the spirit of meekness. Division and separation does not follow a spirit of meekness, it follows some other spirit. Another qualification here is, ‘ye which are spiritual’. People who just want to be in strife with other people are not spiritually qualified to restore anyone. But those who want to restore people are the spiritual ones. Again the goal is to restore someone who has fallen into a fault or an offense and this would include being offended. How can you tell if someone who went to restore someone is really spiritual or not? It’s easy. You can tell because it depends on whether or not that person fell into the offence themselves when they went to restore someone. That’s right. If you’re truly spiritual you won’t pick up that persons offence and start blabbing about it to everybody you know about what somebody did to someone you know. That only proves you’re not spiritually qualified to restore someone because you fell into the trap and the offence yourself. Now some people think they are doing God a favor and are being spiritual for making other peoples offences known to others, but the true God never leads one by or through offence – so what god are they working for? That could be difficult for many people to figure out, because it indicates they are still offended and have not yet learned how to deal with and overcome offences. I know what many of you are thinking. You’re thinking; “You’re a fine example WTH of how to deal with and overcome offences!” I am not claiming to be an expert and that this is an area where I don’t have any difficulties myself. It’s just that I know the truth of what the Word of God says in this area. Just because someone happens to know the truth doesn’t make or imply that this is an area where anybody has perfected themselves or become an expert at it themselves. But that is often the impression we get and are left with when someone teaches us the truth of God’s Word in some area. When they don’t live up to it themselves, then what happens? Why, we get offended. What else is new?

I've been on this chat board for a number of years and still see and often end up reading posts by the same hurting people who have also been posting here for a number of years. What I've learned is hurting people usually only end up hurting themselves and they also end up hurting others who are easily offended. They are still speaking out of hurt but they haven't dealt with their hurt honestly. Someone starts talking critically of someone, but if you were truly spiritual you would step in and say, "I see you have this brother or sister in Christ on your heart. We need to pray for them. You lead the prayer." That doesn't work here because that would shut a lot of people up pretty quick. Of course one can always do it in a self-righteous, 'holier-than-thou' way or one can do it out of love. Doing it out of love would probably convict someone though, but it's still your choice on how to do it. The reason a lot of people are still dealing with hurt is because they haven't learned to recognize the source and answered it. They haven't learned yet how to speak back to offences and recognized it for what it is or learned how to take the 'life support' off of it. To have and lead a life of victory one has to know how to deal with an offence whenever it comes toward them, but many have never learned the lesson on how to deal with offences so they continue to nuture those offences instead of rooting them out. The bible says bitterness when it takes root will defile you. (Hebrews 12:15) Other things got planted on the inside and they watered and nurtured those things, and some people are still dealing with those things many, many, many years later. Why? Because they watered and "nurtured" those offences. They not only sprouted, but they now have become really BIG ISSUES to deal with - especially when it effects your emotions and your decisions. When people get mad or angry they say things and make a lot of wrong decisions they never would have made if those offences had not gotten on the inside and grown. A lot of people think they are "speaking out of reality" but in truth they are only "speaking out of their own emotions". Emotions are never a good source of reality, especially when people keep bringing up offences that have continued to bother them for years on end. They are not only deceiving themselves, but they are also deceiving and misleading you and others as well. The problem being that most Christians don't know anything about how to deal with the voices of offence that come to them. As the bible says, there are many voices in the world - but one has to learn to recognize those different voices. One would think and believe God Himself must lead by offence by the topics of choice here and by the way some post and respond to other people's posts. They obviously think it's God who is leading them. Now years later you're still offended by something that happened to you many years, and you still think it's the true God who is leading you but He's not. Get a clue. Get over the offence first, and then see what God says. I am sure not too many people understand what I'm talking about because they've spent too much time listening to all the other voices that come to them and are still having problems dealing with those voices. Sometimes I have to say these things because some people don't even realize what they are doing. Things got planted on the inside of them and then others come along and they keep on watering it and nurturing it and then they start growing. Once they start growing they are going to start bearing fruit - good or bad. The reason some people are still dealing with "bad things" is largely because they haven't taken the life support off of it. The best thing of course is not let those things take root whenever offences come. In other words, don't deny that it's there. Here's a thought. Recognize the hurting person is only hurting themselves - they are speaking out of hurt. Sometimes hurting people even hurt people. We've all done it at some point and time. But one has to learn to recognize the source and how to properly answer it by not returning evil for evil. Rather you learn to return good by first recognizing how God has been good to you, and then you return good for evil. You don't let it get in, you deal with it immediately. If it gets in and stays in, it will get a root just like Hebrews 12:15 says and then it will start to grow. Once something gets a root, it's much harder to get out. The larger the root is, the harder it is to pull the thing out. If a sapling starts to sprout up in your yard where you don't want a tree, the best time to pull it out is when it is still a sapling, not when it's a giant redwood. If you let it get that big then you're not going to be able to pull that thing out - not by yourself. You may have to get the chainsaw and then it still isn't completely out! It will start popping little shoots up off the stump you left behind. When it takes up a whole lot of ground on the inside of you, then you really have something very difficult to deal with - something you might not be able to deal with very easily. So you don't give it any time. You respond immediately, and you respond in love. The reason many people are still mad and can't forgive other people is largely because they didn't respond to the offence immediately. But most of us, well, we just let the thing grow. Remember your emotions and even theirs is not a good source for reality in this time of offence. Emotions will only deceive and mislead you. Get pass the offence first and then see what God is saying to you. Do you understand what I'm talking about? Here's a second thought. None of us would be posting on GSC except for the fact we all stem from the same "Way Tree" and we all have some real deep roots to deal with because of that - roots that are both good and bad. James 3:14 says, "But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth." In other words, don't deny that it's there. Don't say, "I'm not offended." Yea, I notice your sliding back now. I had your attention and you were sitting in the front row and now your sliding further back to the second. Don't look at me in that tone of voice. I've been sharing the truth with others for a long time. I know how it works. I've got eyes and I see exactly where people are going with this. It happens every time. People initially get close, but once they get offended by someone or by something that someone did they back off. Then you don't see them at all. "What happend to so-and-so?" I'll tell you what happened. They got offended. Then they say, "Everything's all right." No. Everythings not alright. If your not offended then we shouldn't be seeing the fruit of offence. But that's all most people ever see. What is the fruit of offence? Seperation is one. So don't deny it. Another thing is, recognize the damage it is doing. Acknowledge the Word of God because the Word of God tells you it is doing damage. It seperates people, it shuts down your faith in God and His Word, it effects your emotions and so forth. We've all been over that. Recognize the Word of God because it is affecting you whether you think it is or not. Recognize that you are in a spiritual prison. In other words, you must recognize that Satan is trapping you whenever you hold on to offences. He' binding you up, but even many Christians don't recognize just how bound up they are. They think, "Well, I'll just uh.." but then they start seething on the inside thinking they aren't retaliating and that it's not effecting them, but they are just getting bound up. Sometimes the devil does things slow - just like a frog that won't jump out of the water when it gradually gets hot. If you take a frog and throw it into hot water it will immediately jump out. But put him in water he likes and gradually increase the temperture, he'll stay put and get cooked right there not realizing he is getting cooked alive. That is the way the devil works. He just gradually gets things into some people. More and more he gets things into people. Their hurting. Then someone comes along and then hurts them again. Then someone else does it again and then they are all burned up and burned out with life. I'll just close with this verse for you to think on further - something we should all strive for. Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have a conscience void of offence toward God and toward man.