What The Hey

Oh for Ch**** sake! Get a clue man!! All the real devils are out trying to prove [attempting to prove once again - but horribly failing] they are "holier-than-you-know-who".

Who said that Jesus was just [only] a man? It sure wasn't VPW. VPW just said he wasn't God and that he [Jesus] was God's only begotten son - but not God Himself. (If you are going to argue a point you should get the facts straight first.)

Good question - seeing how this was put across like VPW spent all that time teaching us those keys as: "a great big waste of someone's time." Because we can get back to the original Word as God gave it. There's just one (well, maybe two) little problems here though: 1. People think they already know everything about those keys and they also think they know how to fully use them. I on the other hand however, believe differently. Boy - you're fooling yourself if you think "everybody" cares about getting back to the "original" Word as God gave it by studying the bible. Here is one "key" to understanding the bible that wasn't mentioned in PFAL - but it is still "key" when it comes down to someone understanding the bible - which is also the second part of the forementioned problem. 2. Whatever it is people really DO care about is whatever they spend the majority of their time on/in/or with. Mastering those keys, and sadly, even the bible and other materials for biblical study (even PFAL) doesn't come close to making the top of their list.

Sorry, he can't - nor can anyone else for that matter since all men are liars and only God is true. Haven't you been listening?

You've only shown records and accounts from within the gospels where you believe the Kingdom of God = Kingdom of Heaven, but fail to show this same type of comparison from anywhere or anyplace in the Old Testament where the Kingdom of God = The Kingdom of Heaven. If you are going to be an honest biblical reasearch and claim these two kingdoms are the same, then you should be able to do this with the Old Testament, The Gospels, The Epistles, and all through the entire bible. The problem you will run into is this: You can't offer the same proof the Kingdom of God=the Kingdom of Heaven anywhere or anyplace in or from the Old Testament, because any (and all) Old Testament references to The Kingdom of Heaven would be (and are) all prophetic - that is, with "The Kindom of Heaven" being fulfilled sometime in the future - which of course, begins in the gospels. Like I stated earlier. The Kingdom of Heaven had a beginning, the Kingdom of God is eternal. The only reason why one can show a comparison between these two Kingdoms from inside the gospels is because God didn't suspend "The Kingdom of God" (which is eternal without any beginning or end) in favor of "The Kingdom of Heaven" which began with the birth of Jesus Christ. Now Christ's Kingdom - The Kingdom of Heaven, is still part of "The Kingdom of God", but it is only "part of" that all entire expansive kingdom of God. A ham sandwich is still part of the pig, but a ham sandwich is not a pig or the same thing as a pig.

Anybody who can read realizes these terms are NOT synonomous or interchangeable. The Kingdom of [or from] God is eternal. Being eternal it has no beginning or ending. It definately is not the same as the Kingdom of [or from] Heaven. The Kingdom of [or from] Heaven had a very definate beginning and it began with the birth of the King, Jesus Christ. The belief these two terms are synonmous and interchangeable springs largely from trinitarian theology. If God=Jesus then out of necessity Kingdom of God would=Kingdom of Heaven. The glaring error is making these terms synonomous and interchangeable, being borne out of trinitarian thinking. (For something that supposedly has a "glaring error" to it, one would think that "glaring error" would make it impossible to spot any trinitarian theological bull*** as such.)

No, it isn't necessary to have one sole source for your faith and practice. However it is necessary to have one sole source for truth. I realize how it would be easy to confuse these two, as there can be a lot of things in ones faith and practice that is true, but one's faith and practice does not always equal "the truth". Of course, believing the truth is going to end up setting you apart from the rest of the world. It all depends if you want to be a friend of Jesus Christ, or if you want to be a friend of the world. Either way, it's your decision. (See the gospel of John, chapter 17).

Wierwille destroying lives? Boy is that rich! When he was alive half the people in TWI reached just for the chance just to touch his robe. But now it feels incredibly icky -- yuck!" (The rest of the time though, ''it felt very good, honest, and right.")

That remark sure has got to be the height of arrogance, because you can't make someone believe God's Word if they don't want to believe it, so what makes you think you can protect someone from some "so-called mis-direction" if they dont want to believe that either? Keep holding on to that view and you will end up being a "lone-ranger" [ahem] christian person out there all by yourself with your own personal vendetta to "save-the-world". Sounds like a totally wasted life. No thank you. :(

Let's just assume for a moment what the outcome would have been if VPW decided to never teach the Word of God to others at all. Would God still have taught VPW "the Word like it wasn't known since the 1st century?" Personally I think the outcome would have been very different. For one thing, I'm pretty sure none of us would be here chatting or having any kind of discussion like this on this board.

Why is it then that for most people the "big picture" turns out to be just another Picasso Dora Maar au Chat when it comes to Christianity? (See post above.)

Here's the rub I think most people are having with this, that is, that God provided the revelation/teaching exclusively and strictly to VPW and to nobody else. I for one, don't believe this to be the case. The deal God made with VPW was He would teach him IF he would teach others. It seems the deal breaker in this situation would be that God wouldn't teach him the Word if he wouldn't teach it to others. What I am basically saying is the revelation/teaching that God provided for VPW was strictly upon a conditional bases - that is, if we are to go by that statement alone. If that is the case, then the revelation/teaching could only be made availble to VPW IF he would teach others and it wouldn't be available if he didn't. So the real question that must be answered is, did VPW teach others the Word of God or didn't he? (VPW certainly wouldn't have accomplished the things he did during his lifetime if he re-negged on the deal he made with God if you ask me.)

The defintition of Hyperbole = exaggeration, overstatement. Well, for one thing, I'm certainly convinced you've said more than a mouthful about a lot of things.

My oh my. All this discussion and you are only lead to this conclusion: Some people believe: God forbid anything VPW ever said or taught from the bible = "Thus saith the Lord." But if the Lord himself would have said or taught it instead ... to them it still wouldn't prove to be anything.

He does, so you can believe him - or do you need more witnesses?

It isn't surprising those who have difficulty accepting the permanence of salvation are likewise oblivious to the different biblical administrations. Afterall, what can one say about salvation? It is the greatest thing God has ever done to give man everlasting life and for you as a Christian to say, "I am going to live forever!" What an amazing thing, what a great truth! What a blessing it is to know that - and for you to know that from God's Word. Surely none of us deserve everlasting life, and yet that is the gift God says He has given to us and that He has promised to us in His Word. The first thing one has to have is an administrational point of view to make the scriptures "fit together" and to make the scriptures work properly. It is unfortunate that to so many the bible is just a confusing book, it's full of contradictions and perplexities. God didn't write the bible with the attitude of - Hah - they'll never figure that one out! It says in Timothy that God wants us to come to a knowledge of the truth. Actually it says He wants us to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2:4) Now if one is going to do that, then it is important that one studies the scriptures, and in order for the scriptures to make sense then we have to get some postulates correct first. You have to get some axioms correct - some fundamental beliefs about the bible we need to have correct in order for the bible to make any sense. One of the things you have to get correct is that the way God (and God is God and He can do things the way He wants to) but the way that God relates to man has been through a series of administrations. Now this is very important to understand what an administration actually is. An administration (or a dispensation if you want to call it that) is not just a time period in the bible. What an administration is, is an administring of God's rules or regulations or His justice, and because when God starts administrating and stops adminstrating - as there is a point where He starts and a point where He stops, then an adminstration occurs within a period of time. Although technically speaking an administration is NOT a set period of time, an administration is a way of God's serving, a way of God's ruling if you will, an administration is a way of God's doing this. But because it occurs within a period of time, then for us to look at it and examine it closely it is much easier for us to look at it as a starting point and a stopping point, so we have multiple different periods of time in the bible. This becomes very, very important when we are talking about the subject of salvation and that we understand administrations in this way. When we talk about salvation within these administrations, then we see there are differences. Now in any one of these biblical administrations - anyone could be saved. But in the old Testament and the gospels, a person was only saved by being faithful to God throughout their life. However in the grace administration (which was a secret and hidden from the other administrations) God did something entirely brand new. In the grace administration, God made salvation a one time, permanent experience. He also let us know that because in the grace administration God calls our salvation "birth", and God doesn't call salvation "birth" in the old Testament or in any other administration. Right now as we stand here as Christians our salvation is permanent. It is based on a one time experience of "birth" from God (one can't get reborn twice from God or any more times from God) and it is born into us just like our natural birth - only this time it is of incorruptible seed rather than corruptible. In fact (which is the truth) it is more permanent than your natural birth because your natural birth is corruptible seed and at some point in time that seed is going to die!! This incorruptible seed from God however will NEVER DIE, and that is why it is permanent and why our salvation in this administration of grace is likewise permanent.

... But don't tell my heart My achy breaky heart I just don't think he'd understand And if you tell my heart My achy breaky heart He might blow up and kill this man. (Billy Ray Cyrus) Kill the man? Well - at least let us praise God that we can finally tear his wings off!

Yeah right. We're convinced you've got the skinny and the truth about VPW - and everyone and everything that has ever been associated with TWI. Don't be offended that we just can't come to the same conclusions you have - that is, that you've got everything competely in balance regarding VPW, TWI, etc., when we see your vindictive fingers still stuck upon the scales of justice.

How did you manage to figure that, since no one I know has ever prayed like that in their time of need or desperation. There are plenty of places I see where God uses some really big "srew-ups" to reach the other really big "screw-ups" that are out there. They wouldn't have listened to them otherwise - lack of experience.

So TWI wasn't the utopia - the heaven on earth you initially thought it was or should be. Divorcee's say pretty much the same thing when discussing what their marriage was like to their ex. That is why I agree with you 1000%. The real issue isn't over what people believe or don't believe. It's about the relationships they have with one another.

No doubt the "other thread" you are refering to is: Boot the Wierwille Apologists - a thread that you had started BTW. To quote a non-Wierwille apologist who recently responded to you on that thread> My sentiments exactly, ChasUFarley, and my sentiments don't always agree with yours or anybody else's here. GrouchoMarxJr is only interested in locking up with other poster's here (in this case WhiteDove) and merely starting threads to accomplish that.

Maybe he gave you the bumper sticker to help keep that rusty bumper on your $200 junk car?

Well, there goes someone's whole hypothesis then, huh? Boy, am I upset. NOT!!

Well if you want to believe and treat everything K@rl K@hler. says in his book: "The Cult that Snapped" as if it were "The Gospel" like some people here do, then be my guest.