Morgan

HAHAHAHAHA - now there is science in action. Okay, I'll play I was once an innie with a round navel, making me gentle, loving and sensitive, but prone to worry. People with innies are delicate. And even-tempered with a quiet, retiring personality. Then I had children, leaving me an innie with a somewhat verticle navel. So I guess motherhood has made me gentle, loving and sensitive, but prone to worry. People with innies are delicate. And self-confident person who is generous and emotionally stable. Show's what they know. Raising two high energy boys has definite NOT left me with an sense of delicateness (can you say 24 - 7 fart and poop jokes?). emotionally stable? HA - you watch two boys flinging themselves from monkey bars - riding wheelies on bikes, trying to jump over each other on skate board! Trust me, you won't be feeling emotionally stable at the end of the days. Self Confident? There is nothing like parenthood to make one quesetion almost everything they thought they once knew. But despite all of that - I'd do it again. Well, no I wouldn't, I don't want anymore. But I am thrilled with the ones I have. :)

If my memory is correct (and I don't have the time to research it at the moment) this case isn't setting a precedent. Didn't the Peterson case have similar charges? The intent is to differentiate between those who wish to carry the pregnancy to term and give birth v. those who do not. I think one would have to read the specific wording of the law before one could be certain of the likelihood that such laws could set a precedent that would challenge Roe v Wade. The news article writes it as "attempted murder of an unborn child" but the statute itself could be worded quite differently. In either case, I am happy to see one more violent offender behind bars instead of running loose upon society.

"the only time one of my brothers had to deal with homosexual tendencies is after Father Butler gave him blowjobs when he was a young altar boy and the poor kid had to deal with (though his entire life up until now) the fact that it felt good" ExC said something here that is rarely ever discussed when the subject of rape and molestation comes up. Not only is it a betrayal of your trust for someone else - it is far far worse. It is a betrayal of your own body against you. Your body is designed (and this may be even more true for males than females) to respond to certain stimulation. Imagine how horrifying it would be to have your body respond physically to sexual contact that your heart and mind rejects and even abhorrs! CoolChef - did you say no? Did you want him to stop? Or were you just drunk and allowing an "experiment" to take place, that you were just too inhibited to allow sober? I was repeatedly raped/molested by someone. That someone would NOT stop until my body responded. I learned how to take myself to a different place mentally - to um how should you say - reach that reponse as quickly as possible in order to make the entire act end as quickly as possible. Again, it is important to remember that rape and molestation isn't just about sexual gratification - it is about power. How much more powerful can one be when they can force your body to respond against your will. These people should NEVER be placed in a position of power or authority over ANYONE!!! Perhaps some of these male predators who prey on young boys aren't homosexual, they just realize the male body is designed to respond more easily than the female one. Either way, homosexual or heterosexual, it is about power, not lust.

"Yes, I am fighting to save the ministry because it saved my life. " I disagree. An organization does not save a life - an organization is nothing without people. It was the people involved who helped you - many, if not most, of whom are no longer with TWI, if I were to lay bets. "I had lived with pain for a couple years (from a severe injury) and I took PFAL and got miraculous healing from it during the class. I have seen the lame walk. I have been at death's door. I have been physically mamed by spirits." And again - it wasn't the organization. It was God and God can be found in many places and works in many people. "I think it is changing because it HAS TO change. " If you study the history of TWI you will find it has changed MANY times. It gets harsh, the numbers fall and income drops, so they lighten up and start love bombing again. Then when the big money is rolling in again, they slowly start tightening the noose again. "The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves" Not in my area. Same old thought police are still running the joint. Same old brain dead followers are following behind like zombies. Nothing much has changed in this area, except there are fewer zombies. "Have we really come full circle back to “GOD WORKS IN YOU”, instead of “God is working in you only if I (being a leader) recognize God working in you and can fully agree that yes, it is God working in you and it’s not some spiritual mix-up”. " Don't be so sure that a year or two down the road, the rug won't be pulled out from underneath you again. I've known my share of "old timers" who had a lot of heart and stuck it out through a lot of changes and turmoil. In the end, even they eventually saw the pattern I spoke of above.

but what about gathering togeter, help each other. Work as one. Establish as Way Corps Association or someting to rebuild the program, rebuild the fellowship and move The Word. Gather them Speak about the problems Help each other Improve The Way Corps. Establish leadership. This has already been done on some level at least. There are now a number of "offshoots". The reviews are mixed in terms of their success. Some people love them, other's would say they are ultimately no different than TWI - same problems still exist.

That is so cool!!!! They posted a link to the cafe and listed Karl's book!!!!! "Oh Belle, you know I'm right on this. TWI taught that one couldn't really "know for sure" that they are saved unless they SIT. It is the proof in the senses realm; NOT that they ARE NOT saved. As you know, VP taught in PFAL that folks can be born again, and not SIT." Yeah, but what was taught to large audiences and what was taught to smaller ones were often not quite the same. Oh right. . . . I forgot, if Oldies didn't experience it, it never happened and is just a lie. <_<

Gee Oldies, do you have difficulties with reading comprehension? Perhaps if your question is that important to you, you could start another thread on that topic in the doctrinal forum where it rightly belongs.

"Your opinion that any thought reform we experienced in twi was "non-consented" by folks is another opinion of yours that is unproven, and begs much explanation." BTW, Oldies, no one owes you an explanation for their opinions, thoughts, or experiences. Nor, do we have to "prove" them to you. Anyone who has read more than a handful or so of your posts is aware that your experience in TWI was different from the experience many other posters had (hell we all had unique experiences, no?). Likewise, we realize that no amount of explaining is going to help you understand some of these things that you plainly do not get. However, many of us get it without explanation, because we felt/expienced similar things. We do not need to explain to each other these subjects. Nor do we have to spend countless hours trying to help you see that which you apparently cannot.

jkboehme, excellent response!!!! Oldies, "From 1975 to 1991, some 16 years, I went to twig approximately once a week, with other sporadic twi events other times. But that's approx. 2 hours out of 168 hours per week, to get a dose of your so-called covert packaged persuasion, that according to you, was supposed to brainwash my neuro transmitters." That may have been YOUR experience and perspective - but it is NOT the experience or perspective of many others. Perhaps a thread about "returning to your true self" is not for you, as you feel you have never left behind/burried your true self. Others feel they did and it is most likely their persective this thread is searching for. What you have attempted to do is disallow anyone else's perspective by posting as if such things never occured, simply because you feel it did not happen to you. That just stinks. "The twig coordinators were excellent too..." Glad you had excellent twig coordinators. Some of did not, despite your wonderful experience. Hard for you to believe, I realize. "Your opinion that any thought reform we experienced in twi was "non-consented" by folks is another opinion of yours that is unproven, and begs much explanation." Consented to or not, many of us feel it took place, often without our being aware of it. It is difficult to consent to something you are not aware is occuring. The person I was pre-TWI and the person I became while IN TWI are two very different people. Some of the person I became while in TWI, I respect and love - those traits I have retained. The rest I have tossed. Some of the person I was pre-TWI I despise and I have continued to reject those traits. One of the great things about leaving TWI and "starting over" so to speak, is that you can take some time and figure out who you want to be. What do you value, what do you find distasteful? What do you enjoy doing? Take some time, think those things through. Perhaps even do some research on various issues that might come to mind regarding politics, religion, ethics, etc. and then decide. You will find that some things are just core to who you are. You may have burried them during TWI, but they will resurface again in time. Other things are maleable and you can pick and choose among them, make an educated decision about them. Do you value fine clothes and dining? Or perhaps you value a quiet evening at home with a couple cherished friends, dressed in blue jeans or sweats? Those things may sound superficial, but you will find they really aren't. You can experiment too. Try new things that you've never tried before and see what you think of them. Have fun with finding yourself and recreating yourself. And give yourself lots of room and time.

"I don't buy into the master-slave model of parenting. The "I pay the bills, you do what I tell you to do because I'm in charge." I've never seen it work. It may get a shot-term desirable response, but a kid will usually drop it at first opportunity. And why wouldn't they?" Sure they would. But isn't the goal to get the kid to move out eventually anyway? And don't we want them to be prepared for the real world when they do? In the real world, there will still be rules to follow. If they grow up thinking they can do whatever they fool please, they will be in for a very rude awakening some day and as an adult the price/consquences will be MUCH steeper. "I do think they have basic human rights and should be treated as a human, not as an animal (or a slave)."a I agree, when they behave like humans they should be treated like humans. But, if they want to behave like animals (and kids sometimes do) . . . "I agree with this. Revocation of privileges. It reflects how life works. When you perform well, you get more priveleges. When you don't, you have less privileges. When I perform well at my job, I make more money (in general -- life isn't always fair). If I perform poorly, or with blatant disregard, I risk losing my revenue stream." Exactly. If you perform poorly or with blatant disregard, then you will have to humiliate yourself by begging for food and money. Sounds like this mom gave her daughter a dose of real world consequences, which btw, are often more effective than the unnatural consequences we sometimes come up with off-the-cuff for our kids. "From everything I've seen and read, along with my own experience, suggests that positive reinforcement is the most powerful motivator. Kids, and adults, will do things for fear of suffering consequences, but only the minimum is done -- just enough to say it was done. Fear is a powerful motivator and is a part of everyday life. But doing something because you want to do it is a whole other story" Yes, positive reinforcement (when it is honestly deserved and properly given) is a powerful motivator. But postive reinforcement for good behavior without natural consequences for poor behavior is usually inadequate. It requires both to teach kids how to think before they act - to teach them that all decisions have a consequence, be it good or bad. Yes, we want kids to do things because they WANT to do them. But in real life, we all at times have to do things even when we DON'T want to do them. I have to pay the bills whether I feel like it or not (and who really wants to pay bills???). So kids need to learn how to think and foresee the natural consequences of their choices. As parents, it is our responsibility to help them do this, by issuing natural consequences. "Do you not recall the times your parents were proud of you, told you so, stood up for you (if they ever did)? Do you not recall craving this?" All kids and many adults crave approval. But a healthy person will give THEMSELVES approval first (as in, it comes from inside) thereby lessening the need for approval from others. " Or how about when you did something stupid (as everyone does occasionally) and they were there for you to help, not make you feel like an idiot? " Ahhhh, but there is a trick to this. Allowing your kids to have consequences for bad choices does not have to make them feel like an idiot. It depends on how you handle it. First, you focus on the choice, not the child. Second, you don't react out of anger but instead show them a lot of empathy because they are now going to have to deal with the consequences of their decision. You feel bad for them as they pay the piper. This shows them you love them, while still allowing them to learn.

"Why should it be ok for a 14 year old to be treated that way, if it's wrong for it to be done to an adult." The reality is, this is EXACTLY what happens to some adults. And yes, it is sad. Better for this girl to understand at 14 due to an hour or two of humiliation what the long-term consequences of her decisions could be, than for her to find out the hard way when she is 30 and it is much harder to go back and finish school. " Does a 14 year old have any less human rights?" YES. Until she is working and paying her own bills, she has the right to follow the rules of the person who IS paying the bills. "So what if she's not doing her school work. It's her life to do what she wants with it. " You have got to be kidding. 14-year-olds are dumber than dirt. They see nothing beyond the minute or hour in which they are currently living. They have no clue the decisions they are making today will affect their entire future. If it truly were "her life to do with what she wants", then why does she still need to live at home with a parent? Why does any 14-year-old? If most 14-year-olds are capable of making adult decisions, why aren't they out in the real world taking care of themselves? Sheesh - that is like saying, "go ahead and get pregnant at 14, after all, it's your life to do with what you want."

Well it's not an idea I would have come up with in a million years, but I cannot say I object overly much either, especially considering it seems to have worked. Yeah, yeah, psychological abuse. Not necessarily - how about a dose of reality. I get the positive reinforcement thing, really. But sometimes that is simply not enough, sometimes it just doesn't work. There really isn't enough information here to judge what would and wouldn't work or what the mother has and hasn't already tried. I have to at least applaud the mom for caring enough to take a stand with her daughter and for trying to teach her that there are real life consequences to the choices she makes. I was talking to a mom I really respect a few days ago. She pointed out that the courts and the government want us to keep our kids off the streets and out of police cars. At the same time, they tie the parent's hands leaving them with less and less authority over their children and their homes. I do not in any way advocate abusing children - but when the kids know they can back their parents into a corner simply by calling social services, what are the parents to do?

well if Peter Gabriel joins them I will find a way to go see them!!!!

So was it the hard drive? I am very curious because one of puters at work did this exact same thing last week. Our tech picked it up to see if he could fix it. He was scratching his head in bewilderment when he left with the machine.

click on the link above the picture and watch the video

"I think that suicide should be legal (I really do) " Now if you think about this - if you committ suicide and succeed, criminal prosecution is no longer an option. It's only when you screw it up and live that you can be prosecuted. So in a sense, you aren't being prosecuted for committing suicide, you're being prosecuted for failing to do it right. :blink:

(((Belle))) Happy birhtday!

I've been itching all day for the time to sit down to this thread! :) Okay here goes . . . . . .Oh and for clarities sake I was in for all of the 1990's and left near the end of 2000 The organisation controls its people by group pressure or geographical isolation. 0 pts ) The system is open : there is no pressure to adhere, to stay in the group, or isolation from the rest of society. 1 pt ) There is some pressure in doing as the group says, but no physical coercion. 3 pts ) There is a lot of peer pressure to stay in the group and do as the group says. There may be some light physical coercion. 5 pts ) There is tremendous and constant pressure from other members to act and think like the group does. Deviating from the norm is seen as an abnormality which must be dealt with swiftly. The group is physically isolated. 5 points. By the time I left I had no friends outside of TWI. I was home 24/7 except for fellowship and necssary errands such as shopping (which was a two by two excursion) cult of confession The organisation gets people to confess their sins or evils, in order for them to be cleansed. These confessions can be used against them later. Some group leaders also confess in public in order to look more human and to put the organisation more to their level. 0 pts ) No aspect of confession is involved. There is nothing to be "purified" or "cleansed" of, there is no higher state to be attained. 1 pt ) Some leaders will share their experiences and past troubles with the group in order to enforce the idea that "anyone can do it". No superior state of being or purification is proposed. 3 pts ) Confessions from members can be used against them in order to get them back in the fold, or keep them there. Leaders will share their experiences also. A superior state of being or purification is proposed (such as "being saved" or "being rich"). 5 pts ) There is high confessional pressure, either to confess your sins regularily, or a constant bombardment of testimonies and confessions from leaders. An exhalted state of being is proposed (such as holiness, super-beingness or blatant godhood). I think I'd go 4 points here. We weren't always pressured to confess our own sins, but we were expected to rat out those around us. sacred science The organisation's methods are perfect. Any fault lies with the person, not with the methods. Furthermore, testimonies and present successes demonstrate that the system works. One must have faith and go on. 0 pts ) There is open-mindedness and methods or doctrines are revised when necessary - no undue blame is placed on the person. No testimonies or success-bombing is used. 1 pt ) The system works : there are testimonies. People are confident in the success of the system because of them, despite lack of proof. 3 pts ) The system works : a large part of getting new members in relies on testimonies and demonstrations. Successful people are paraded and failures can be due to people not following the "system" or being too "critical". Hope and faith makes one more successful, therefore motivation is important. 5 pts ) The doctrine is presented as infallible, and any fault or bad happenings are strictly due to the people involved. Outrageous testimonies, constant reminder of other people's success. Members are pushed to continue so that problems will be soon resolved. 5 points easily. Anything we saw as a contradiction was brushed off at best as an error in our understanding. loading of the language The organisation redefines words (especially emotionally-charged words) to suit its outlook in the world, and more importantly, the outlook it wants its members to have. The creation of new words or expressions also isolates the member from the outside world. 0 pts ) New words are created or redefined. 1 pt ) Some emotionally-charged words may be redefined to emphasize the outlook of the group. Some new words are created to aid comprehension of new or unusual concepts. 3 pts ) The group redefines and creates many words in order to isolate the members from "the others" (non-members) and to reorient his values as being those of the group. 5 pts ) A full-blown vocabulary replaces normal language and mentally entraps the member. It is difficult for the member to understand non-members after assimilating this vocabulary. I'd say 3 here. Certainly some loading, but not a complete replacement doctrine over person The organisation asks its members to experience first before criticizing. These experiences shape a person's outlook and eventually the person acts like everyone else. His emotional well-being is dependant on being with the group. 0 pts ) Experience is not required to understand the group's doctrine or mechanisms. Emotional well-being is not dependant on being with the group (friendships may form, however). 1 pt ) "You can't really know unless you experience it". People without experience are told that their criticism is irrelevant. 3 pts ) Experience is part of what gives one status in the group. People who have experience fall into a pattern of thought or action. People without experience are told that their criticism is irrelevant. Members derive emotional benefits from being part of the group, which they would not get otherwise. 5 pts ) Knowledge is nothing - experience is everything. The more you accomplish in the group's standards, the more important you are. People without experience must be guided by any means possible higher up the hierarchy or must be tricked to stay as long as possible. The entire emotional well-being of the members is dependant on being in the group. This one is tough - cause with them it was knowledge that was everything and experience meant little. BUT we were told that we had to DO before we could know. I'm thinking I would go with a 3 here. Also count one point for each of the following characteristics that exist in the group : Salvation : Group proposes a superior state of beingness or salvation. Absolutely - the one and only household of god and all Lovebombing : Group promotes displaying excess consideration or even affection towards a new recruit in order to give him a sense of belonging and keep him in the organisation. Another absolute! Get people while they are weak (find their need) and build them up (and meet it) Cognitive dissonance : Contradictions are used in conditioning members to accept the group's doctrine or mechanisms. The act of accepting and rationalizing these contradictions is an important element of brainwashing. Too many examples to quote them all. Charismatic leadership : Emphasis is placed on the leader or leaders. These leaders can issue commands or edicts obeyed without question. Worshipping and loyalty are paramount. Definitely Deception in recruiting : When one is involved in the group, lies and deceptions in the recruiting material are soon apparent. I'm not sure this one qualifies. At least on the lower level of average twiggies, I don't think we intentionally deceived. And upper level didn't really witness. Exploitation : People work for virtually nothing, usually to the profit of the leaders. Yup Separation from friends and family : People are invited to stop talking to friends or family who do not encourage their participation in the group. Again an absolute. I can't count how many rounds I went over my family ties. Non-critical thinking : Doubting questions about the mechanisms or doctrine of the group are deflected or rejected. Usually, one must experience or be a leader in order to "understand". Again yes Discrediting outside information : Any criticism from the outside is wrong. Only people on the inside really know what the doctrine or mechanisms are all about. yup Loss of independant judgment : The person must rely on other people, usually people above him in the hierarchy, before making any kind of decision, even personal decisions. Yup - better check those decisions out with leadership first Fear of leaving : Group promotes the idea that leaving the group is a very bad decision, which may make the member's future life hellish (in religious doctrines, literally hellish). Absolutely - I had panic attacks for six months after I left Sleep deprivation : Group forces its members to work unusually long hours. Sleep deprivation can also be used to help brainwashing. Never experienced that one total of 29 points

Thank you Shell, for a wonderful reminder of how important our children's teachers are and how hard they work! :)

Okay, I may be showing my ignorance here, but I have to ask anyway. . . what makes this particular virus scarier, more potentially dangerous, or more likely to cause a pandemic than numerous other viruses? For example - West Niles virus, which is already in the U.S. and is transmitted through mosquetos. It kills birds, makes people sick, and has already caused the death of a number of people whose immune systems were already compromised somehow. Couldn't that virus just as easily mutate and cause a pandemic? There is also now a "dog flu" which thus far is not transmittable to people, but what's to say it won't mutate and become deadly to us? Or even a simple cold virus that mutates? Why this particular bug, why now? How is it different? Also - isn't messing with tamaflu potentially increasing the likelihood that a virus will mutate and become resistant or stronger? More virulent? I read the news stories and it seems we are boardering on panic/hysteria over this one particular virus. I am not trying to "downplay" the potential seriousness of it, I am simply trying to understand why this particular virus has us more concerned than some of the many other viruses.

"I think his statement about the bot "worshipping other gods" was off the mark." I don't know, I think time has proven they have and do still worship other gods.

This whole mind-set of suspicion has been fostered and built to the end that a man is not esteemed highly in love for his work's sake, but is condemned and considered guilty before he even has the opportunity to prove anything. And so at that point I think he was asking for another opportunity to prove himself, and folks who left at that point declined, most using as justification his "carnal" request. And yet, that is exactly what he and his minions did to countless people. Disagree with leadership over anything and suspicion was not just raised, it was deemed fact/truth and you were out. Hell you didn't even have to disagree with anything taught - if leadership, from LCM on down through the ranks, didn't like you for some reason - there was no "suspicion" of being possessed/homo/off the word - you were guilty, period! The rank and file "believers" rarely got an opportunity to "prove anything" when they were accused.

Happy birthday to you happy birthday to you happy birthdday to Hammi Happy birthday to you <<<be very very glad you can't really hear me sing that>>>

Yes but in non-TWIland real life - people who experience these things have some recourse to help them "deal with these types of problems in life." In real life, if your roommate refuses to get a job, you can through him out on his butt. In real life if someone is making unwanted sexual advances on you - you can tell them to stay away and never see them again. In real life if someone has physically assaulted you, you can call the police. Those options were not available to many of the people on the wow field. The wow field did not teach the "victims" how to deal with it via real life consequences, but instead often made the "victim" feel like it was their own fault. Likewise, it did not teach ther "perps" real life consequences, but instead taught them that such behavior was acceptable.

Once upon a time there lived a king. The king had a beautiful daughter, the PRINCESS. But there was a problem. Everything the princess touched would melt. No matter what; metal, wood, stone, anything she touched would melt. Because of this, men were afraid of her. Nobody would dare marry her. The king despaired. What could he do to help his daughter? He consulted his wizards and magicians. One wizard told the king, "If your daughter touches one thing that does not melt in her hands, she will be cured." The king was overjoyed and came up with a plan. The next day, he held a competition. Any man that could bring his daughter an object that would not melt would marry her and inherit the king's wealth. THREE YOUNG PRINCES TOOK UP THE CHALLENGE. The first brought a sword of the finest steel. But alas, when the princess touched it, it melted. The prince went away sadly. The second prince brought diamonds. He thought diamonds are the hardest substance in the world and would not melt. But alas, once the princess touched them, they melted. He too was sent away disappointed. :-[ The third prince approached. He told the princess, "Put your hand in my pocket and feel what is in there." The princess did as she was told, though she turned red. She felt something hard. She held it in her hand. And it did not melt!!! The king was overjoyed. Everybody in the kingdom was overjoyed. And the third prince married the princess and they both lived happily ever after. Question: What was in the prince's pants? (Scroll down for the answer) V V M&M's of course. They melt in your mouth, not in your hand. What were you thinking, you pervert??