I Love Bagpipes

Gosh.....thank you for all the kind comments.....gulp. LOL.....oops.....didn't even think about Gerry's (bags123) screen name. No, I'm not bags; bags is very much male. Hint: The names in parenthesis are site screen names. The names not in parenthesis are author's real/pen names. Or if you want me to just tell you, I can do that too. Tbone - Tom Watson - hahahahahah. signed: token backwards

I've posted some of my poems on the forums here from time to time and have appreciated folks reading them and the comments. Thank you very much for your kind and encouraging words. :) Well.....20 of my poems were recently published in a book entitled Seeking the Spiritual. Tis my first time being published but is the 7th book the other poets have put together. I have 20 poems in the book, and I have a pen name. ;) You can probably figure it out if you click below and read the author list. The names in parenthesis are our screen names at the poetry site. http://www.poetrypages.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51150 Anyhoo, just wanted to announce it. Consider yourselves once again spammed. ;) btw: Special thanks to Shellon and Pond and Oenophile for encouraging me to find a place for my pennings, and to frickafrack for pointing me in the direction toward PoetryPages. :) http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...07667&itm=5 http://www.amazon.com/Seeking-Spiritual-Ki...n/dp/0976807661 (From the inside back cover): About the Authors From the mind of the poet.... to the keyboard.... to PoetryPages.com.... to you. The authors found within these pages have formed a unique bond. The majority of us have never met and due to the vast amount of miles that separate us, most never will, yet we congregate almost daily in an intimate corner of cyber space to celebrate our love of poetry, our immense respect for one another and the beauty and power of the written word. We share our thoughts, fears, loves, hates, and humor. Sometimes we drape them in colorful metaphor, sometimes we paint them black and occasionally we slam them home with the power of minimalism and pure simplicity. We present intricate word pictures of changing seasons, form spinning flurries of snow falling through the halo of a street light to the fiery heat of the summer sun beating down upon youth. We offer our insights into the pinnacles of man's achievements and visit the depths of the darkest corners of his psyche. Poetry can open the door to a whole new view on life, burrowing deep into the shadows of the past and freeing cherished memories that may have been lost and forgotten. It has been said that "a picture paints a thousand words." We believe that the right words can paint a million pictures.

I've only perused this thread; someday I might read it. Perhaps the thread is more about doctrine than an individual dealing with any repercussions regarding the experience of ending life in one's womb. But from the last couple posts, perhaps experience has been discussed as well. Some might find the following link helpful in working through the experience. I don't even like the word abortion; it's a cold term to me, an effin' procedure. I have heard the statement "grieving an abortion." IMO, a person doesn't just grieve the abortion; s/he grieves (among other stuff) the loss of his/her unborn child, knowing s/he chose to abort that child. Someone may have already posted something like this. If so, here it is again. A link: http://www.afterabortion.org/healing/index.htm

(note: My bold above.) Perhaps this is a reason why ano posted what he posted? Perhaps he was told that he needed to let folks know his past regarding the said crime? I guess the question is, who told him he needed to reveal this before he could continue posting?

I realize this thread is not just about offshoots, but I want to clarify (from my perspective) regarding CFF. I have had limited experience with offshoots and most of that has been with CFF. To clarify (at least from what I have seen), CFF has not built their work around a class (or classes). Classes are offered but not required or even really "promoted" (from my limited experience). I exited TWI via a CFF minister. He gave me one of the CFF classes after I asked if I could borrow one. I copied the syllabus and the cds to cassettes, and that was okay....as long as I didn't go out and start selling stuff. That may not be standard protocol, I dunno. I imagine if someone couldn't afford to buy one of their classes, CFF would do the same for that person (as the CFF minister did for me). CFF helped me a lot when I left TWI and NEVER, NEVER asked anything in return. I agree Blarney, whole heartedly. I have used that term "organically" regularly, after leaving TWI and experiencing relationships among different groups. Someone asked what I meant by "organic" and I had to think about it. I thought of the human body and how it works to nourish/heal itself. It intuitively knows where to send the nutrients, etc., to do their work. In a similar way, if people are allowed to intuitively follow where led (with "god"/"love" working in their hearts), will that not allow the body to function as needed? And I add, for some, that may be via taking a class/seminar/etc. Cannot that (seminars) also be part of the organic growth? But I guess the point is the $$ charged for those classes......hmmm, which could be done on a freewill donation basis. (That's all.....thanks to whomever for reading my little ramble.... )

Spinning off the depression/possession thread, I wonder if it might be helpful to start a thread where folks can list books that have helped them work through chronic and/or mental illness? And if not ... .... oh well .... I'd be interested in knowing what books have helped folks. For what it's worth, here are some books that I have found helpful: Change Your Brain, Change Your Life by Daniel Amen (Excellent read imo, helpful, easy to understand, practical. Dr. Amen divides the brain into 6(?) regions and list problems/case studies that stem from these regions. Each region then has a chapter on "prescriptions" to help in those problem areas. He also has pictures of brain scans for different problems. Explains some about how changing neural patterning can change biology.) Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pert (Another top of list book on explaining receptors/lignans/neurotransmitters and how the biology of emotions works. Explains some about how changing neural patterning can change biology. Learn about her story as a woman scientist in the 60's at the NIH. Pert helped term the word psychoneuroimmunology and helped discover the opiate receptor.) The Feeling Good Handbook by David Burns (Thick book, but filled with journaling exercises to help change cognitive patterns. Good list of pharmaceuticals and side effects of the same for mental illnesses.) Women's Moods by Sichel and Driscoll (Not an easy book to read but very in depth. Covers a woman's cycle from the onset of menses through menopause and beyond. Many case studies. List helpful suggestions for self care. I called and talked with the one of the authors who has a clinic in Maryland.) Total Relaxation by John Harvey (Helps to identify distorted thoughts and how to change them. Comes with a cd with 4 10 to 20 minute meditation exercises.) The Anatomy of an Illness and Head First both by Norman Cousins (Both of these are at the top of my list. Explains what it is like to suffer with chronic illness and the stigma attached with it. Goes into mind/body medicine, how the placebo effect works, how the body is its own pharmacy, the importance of the doctor/patient relationship. Learn Norman Cousins own struggles and what he applied to overcome.) The Heartmath Solution by Doc Childres (Excellent, excellent, excellent. smile.gif Explains how the brain within the heart communicates with our bodies. Describes exercises to be in touch with one's emotional state and how to change that, how to reach neutral without suppression. Goes into electormagnetic field communications. Cutting edge research in this field.) New Hope for People with Bipolar Disorder by Fawcett, Golden, and Rosenfeld (I've referred to this one a lot over the past 6 years. Case studies of well known people who have suffered mental illness and how they manage(d) their lives. Explains what it is like for a relative who does NOT suffer with mental illness copes with a family member who does. Covers much about stigma and how to handle it.) Healing Back Pain By John Sarno (This may sound like it has no connection to mental illness, but it does. It goes into how suppressed emotion can cause physical symptoms/illnesses. Spring boarding from this book, I was able to rid spasms of a herniated disc and it led me into insight regarding other illnesses I was dealing with.) The Natural Medicine Guide to Bipolar Disorder by Stephanie Marohn (Somewhat helpful in explaining avenues outside accepted medical protocols that have helped some people with bipolar. Good for possibility thinking.) The Heart's Code by Paul Pearsall (About the role cellular memory plays in health.) The Healing Power of the Christian Mind by William Backus (Goes into mind/body medicine from a Christian perspective.) Margin by Richard Swenson (Excellent read on how modern lifestyle are exhausting people resulting in many illnesses. Written from a biblical perspective, yet unconventional. Practical keys. Great bibliography.) Time Management from the Inside Out (Not about depression, but takes into account mental/physical illness in time management.) Cry of the Soul by Allender and Longman (Describes how our emotions are given from God for a reason. Why it is important to hear them and not just brush them off.)

Upon further thought other folks deserve applause and commendations too: anyone who has suffered/overcome/managed or is suffering/currently in the midst of the fight. Here is a line of applause since i can't do a round of applause. :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: btw: Tzaiza, insightful and hopeful post back on #47... but no one ever mentioned it so I thought I would here. Listener, post traumatic stress disorder. (Last time I looked I'm not Shellon , but thought I'd go ahead and give you an answer. Shellon can throw puters mators at me next time in chat. shell )

I'm gonna think out loud here and ramble again. These are just some thoughts...no final judgments. I agree that some people (maybe even many) come to the conclusion you have mentioned Vegan. Us people here on this here board were all influenced deeply by TWI? I think I am correct in stating that? Possibly, we take that background and transfer it onto others? I know I have done it and still do at times. Someone who has not experienced TWI/religiously abusive spiritually suspicious programming (if you will) may see this option differently? I'm not being naive, but am trying to think outside my TWI spirtiually suspicious trained thinking. I know I stated this earlier, but I think much is wrapped up in the way a "solution" is presented. I tried lots of medical approaches for healing in various areas, approaches that should have worked but didn't. A similar stigma applies. Since something didn't work (but should have), some people (even medical folks) concluded it was "all in my head." But the concept wasn't presented to me without some stigma attached. It wasn't "what" was said necessarily, but how it was said. Sometimes the answer from a doc was, we can't find anything wrong with you or we don't know why you don't respond to treatment. Years later I learned that indeed, some of my physical illnesses were directly related to "all in my head." But because this concept (psychsomatic illness) was explained to me intelligently and with respect ( the "solution" presentation), I was able to investigate it without fear of stigma. Okay, done with my ramble. Maybe it made some sense? And maybe not...won't be the first time. Thanks to anyone who tries to understand it.

Double :eusa_clap: FC. I was thinking the same thing WB (applause) after reading FC's post. FC, applause and commendations to you; you deserve it. :) I am not stating that sarcastically at all. I think most of us understand that feeling; but it is the only way people will learn about this kind of stuff. My adage these days is, "Feel the fear and do it anyway." ;)) I was on the phone this afternoon discussing this thread. I mentioned that I had the thought to list some books that I have found helpful, and the other person thought that might be a good idea. I realize some people are readers and some aren't. Bibliotherapy has been a factor in helping me gain wellness. I'm sure other folks have read/studied books that have helped them as well. For what it's worth, here are some books that I have found helpful: Change Your Brain, Change Your Life by Daniel Amen (Excellent read imo, helpful, easy to understand, practical. Dr. Amen divides the brain into 6(?) regions and list problems/case studies that stem from these regions. Each region then has a chapter on "prescriptions" to help in those problem areas. He also has pictures of brain scans for different problems. Explains some about how changing neural patterning can change biology.) Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pert (Another top of list book on explaining receptors/lignans/neurotransmitters and how the biology of emotions works. Explains some about how changing neural patterning can change biology. Learn about her story as a woman scientist in the 60's at the NIH. Pert helped term the word psychoneuroimmunology and helped discover the opiate receptor.) The Feeling Good Handbook by David Burns (Thick book, but filled with journaling exercises to help change cognitive patterns. Good list of pharmaceuticals and side effects of the same for mental illnesses.) Women's Moods by Sichel and Driscoll (Not an easy book to read but very in depth. Covers a woman's cycle from the onset of menses through menopause and beyond. Many case studies. List helpful suggestions for self care. I called and talked with the one of the authors who has a clinic in Maryland.) Total Relaxation by John Harvey (Helps to identify distorted thoughts and how to change them. Comes with a cd with 4 10 to 20 minute meditation exercises.) The Anatomy of an Illness and Head First both by Norman Cousins (Both of these are at the top of my list. Explains what it is like to suffer with chronic illness and the stigma attached with it. Goes into mind/body medicine, how the placebo effect works, how the body is its own pharmacy, the importance of the doctor/patient relationship. Learn Norman Cousins own struggles and what he applied to overcome.) The Heartmath Solution by Doc Childres (Excellent, excellent, excellent. :) Explains how the brain within the heart communicates with our bodies. Describes exercises to be in touch with one's emotional state and how to change that, how to reach neutral without suppression. Goes into electormagnetic field communications. Cutting edge research in this field.) New Hope for People with Bipolar Disorder by Fawcett, Golden, and Rosenfeld (I've referred to this one a lot over the past 6 years. Case studies of well known people who have suffered mental illness and how they manage(d) their lives. Explains what it is like for a relative who does NOT suffer with mental illness copes with a family member who does. Covers much about stigma and how to handle it.) Healing Back Pain By John Sarno (This may sound like it has no connection to mental illness, but it does. It goes into how suppressed emotion can cause physical symptoms/illnesses. Spring boarding from this book, I was able to rid spasms of a herniated disc and it led me into insight regarding other illnesses I was dealing with.) The Natural Medicine Guide to Bipolar Disorder by Stephanie Marohn (Somewhat helpful in explaining avenues outside accepted medical protocols that have helped some people with bipolar. Good for possibility thinking.) The Heart's Code by Paul Pearsall (About the role cellular memory plays in health.) The Healing Power of the Christian Mind by William Backus (Goes into mind/body medicine from a Christian perspective.) Margin by Richard Swenson (Excellent read on how modern lifestyle are exhausting people resulting in many illnesses. Written from a biblical perspective, yet unconventional. Practical keys. Great bibliography.) Time Management from the Inside Out (Not about depression, but takes into account mental/physical illness in time management.) Cry of the Soul by Allender and Longman (Describes how our emotions are given from God for a reason. Why it is important to hear them and not just brush them off.)

I realize your questions are probably rhetorical Bramble. But in case not and if the questions were stated due to my previous post, I want to reply to the questions. (obviously) (I also remember part of your health story and (I hope you remember) I empathize on a deep level.) TWI? Probably very few. Spin offs? I cannot speak because I am not/haven't been deeply enough involved. My thinking (at least in my last post) is outside the Way/Way offshoots bubble (even though I know this thread is within that bubble). My thinking takes into account the whole religious/group think venue .... as well as the medical/alternative health arena. The stigma regarding illness (mental and physical) reaches far beyond the Waybrain bubble. (I know we all know that.) It is a part of culture and always will be. I think all agree that discussions like this help to remove or at least put into perspective the stigma. Regardless (sadly), it seems human nature labels people and puts people in a one-size-fits all garment. When done in the name of religion/god ... reactions are sometimes volatile and at the extremes. Hell, isn't that how most wars start?

I hear you and have lived it. BUT, if the person "up front" has lived the saga of chronic/severe/whatever illness (be it depression or anything else for that matter), and has tried a million and one things that hadn't worked or had only partially worked, and then did get "ministered to" for a "spirit" and did get delivered .... that could offer hope to someone. Perhaps the way the "hope" is offered makes a difference, ie: the attitude, empathy, suggestions, presentation, etc. from the one offering a possible solution? ... whether it be hypnosis, counseling, meds, nutrition,....or dare I say ministering to rid a spiritual cause. One of my beefs (and only one ;) ), is when others dictate what an individual should do/apply for wholeness. Another of my beefs is unsolicited advice which many people are more than eager to offer. Suggestions are fine; advice...different story. :dance:

Hopefull, My apologies if I came across trite. Upon reading it later, it sounds very trite and like a pat on the back. Written/microwaved communication is limited. Your circumstances sound overwhelming. Your suffering is not without significance. I truly hope you have friends/human contact/pet contact close by for comfort and support. And I agree with you, if you were not suffering loss/depression/grief ... that would be atypical. I understand what hopelessness feels like, and while in it...it seems there may be no way out. You will survive, even though the trip may be harsh and you have to dig deep to muster endurance. You will be in my thoughts/prayers, ILB

Cool...I get it, I think. In other words (as your other questions indicated from your post #36), if someone is brought hope by being offered a possible solution, the label on that solution really doesn't matter. A label such as "spirit possession (and an offering to be ministered to and delivered)" may sound offensive to one person, but could be hopeful to another? [sort of makes me cringe, but I understand that other people don't think like moi....(and they are probably dang glad they don't! )] So if I "judge" someone for believing that possession is (or could be) a cause, I am just as guilty as someone who may "judge" me as being possessed. I'm just thinking out loud here .... from a point of neutrality (like there is such a thing...ha!).

I am here....but I must say Waterbuffalo, I really like this signature. Now that my house has burned down, I have a better view of the moon - - - A lot said in a few words....and it brings a smile too! OKAY...back to subject. I hope stuff turns around for you soon Hopefull. You have a great screen name, btw.

In light of this subject and my last post, I will now exhibit some of my insanity. Yup, tis poetry/prose ... so if your bored by such, then skip it. I do not think tis off topic....but if so, my humble apologies. And damn it, don't try to fix me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D Toxic I feel entrapped. Wearied I am. Yet nothing I've done to be weary. Snap these invisible bonds! Catapult self-righteous demands to the farthest breadth. I desire rest verve depth But all I feel are these jumbling torrents. Venomous words run through my head. "STOP IT!" I cry to no avail. Emotional masochist that I am. This insanity within.. Do others know it too? Let me run naked through the woods Live among the wild beasts.. O survival!!! To live by instinct. I am too cush in my middle-class life Bound by society's standards. Does it not make brute beasts of us all? january 2007 Approval No Longer the Master I despise these f***ing standards I wish I could simply erase This god-damned approval addiction Decades fed with perfectionism Self blame a constant companion Yet the guilt does not all lie with me Perhaps it is the warped standards Of a false-sterile society I've grown to detest sterility A playground for deception It breeds a disease in secrecy Murdering individuality How can I grow beyond it Without loosing a ravenous beast Whose been chained and finally tastes freedom With a lusting impulse to feast Upon the cravings denied it Starved the freedom to feel Do I allow the beast expression Therein will its soul be healed Will the ravenous desire to feed Meet its soul companion Freedom to express, to feel, The famine put out to pasture Approval no longer the master. march 14, 2007

What an intriguing question Ductape. Are you stating that by possibly removing some sort of "spiritual" cause, the "patient" could be harmed? As a person who has suffered severe, chronic illness (physical and mental) I know the feeling of always trying to be "fixed." It sucks...really, really sucks!!!! There were times when I thought, "Hell, nothing works for me. I'm a moron, a defective moronic piece of crap. Why does this stuff work for other people and not for me. WTF is wrong with me!!!" (Here is a bit of my health story: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=10805 I have since revised and edited and trimmed it; but one can get the jist.) I'm not suggesting people don't seek help in categories of illness (physical and mental); I sought help for decades....and finally got it via a mix of different stuff. I still have to deal with some leftover "symptoms" that will probably never go away. But, maybe they aren't symptoms. Maybe some of it is part of me, the way my soul is put together...and maybe I should honor it...so to speak. Allow it expression, if you will. (which I am doing a lot these days {allowing expression} from pen to paper to keyboard to cyberboard....and loving it! It feels like a new freedom found!) I think I am finally getting to the point where I'm realizing I don't need fixing, damnit!!!!! One book I read about natural approaches to bipolar disorder relayed a case of a man who only got help by relocating from modern society to a tribal-like environment. In that type society the man functioned well. That sounds extreme, but living with bipolar is also extreme. Had he continued to try to be "fixed" within the accepted protocols, he may never have been able to function. Point being: By trying to "fix" someone, can that person in the process suffer more damage than was/is brought on by a particular "illness"? I believe that yes, that is possible and probably happens a lot more than we realize or are willing to accept. Well, I hope some of that made sense. btw: I saw a guy on Letterman that made all sorts of stuff out of ductape....even tennis shoes that could actually be worn!!! lololol

I've only heard generic instances, so personally I do not know anyone ministered to for depression as a devil spirit that has been healed..or at least I do not recall an instance. I personally was ministerd to in this area regarding shame. I must admit that the deep shame has not come back, but I have still experienced shame. The deep shame and the "surface" shame are different and I would have to ponder it some to see if I could articlate the difference. Was it a devil spirit? That is the question in my mind. Or was it a plaebo effect result. I do not use the word placebo deragatorily or haphazardly. Placebos work...I have been the receiver of such. Norman Cousins in his book Anatomy of an Illness has a illuminating and praiseworthy chapter regarding the placebo effect. I am a firm believer in mind/body medicine and a person's beliefs do come into play. But that is just a part of the healing ingredients. Did any of that make any sense at all? If not I can try to clarify but don't know how successful I'll be. (shrug) btw: Waterbuffalo!!!

The part I wanted to quote from your post oeno wouldn't post. (??) So I've copied and pasted it: Oeno stated: "Those who are inclined to so relegate us may kiss my a$$." I agree whole heartedly, and I think you know that. The question that comes into play is the cloud of suspiscion. I guess I lived with that cloud so long in TWI, that I have decided if that is someone's thinking, then that person doesn't understand and is wearing blinders. If an individual judges me, they have to answer before their god in regards to thinking evil toward me for my weaknesses (and I have a bunch.... ) Oenophile (I think) knows how much I love him as well and how highly I think of him. In fact he has been one of my main supports when I have gone through depressive stuff since leaving TWI and he has always been there. I am not trying to justify Tonia's statement, but trying to clarify. Do I agree with her statement? Honestly, I don't know. I am currently questioning so much of what I have been taught, that I don't know. And Oeno knows how much I am questioning everything. I do stick by my opinion that if something works for a person....praise God. That doesn't mean it will work for someone else.

Well, I guess I'll chime in. I was at the meeting and am the one who shared the info with Oenophile. I count Oeno as a good friend and do not have any qualms with him bringing up what I shared with him. I too have dealt with deep depression and still have bouts with slight depression. I manage the illness now mainly with nutrition, cognitive therapy, writing, and support from a few close friends; occasionally I need medication. In defense of Tonia, she did not make a blanket statement. I believe Tonia's motive is love and her desire is to help others. She stated depression could possibly be caused by a devil spirit. She did not present her statement with an accusatory tone; but rather with a view toward helping someone overcome in particular areas. She also shared a situation regarding herself when she was ministered to for deliverance from a spirit. She stated that she had had problems with the word "possession," but then recognized "possession" is used in the Word; so therefore, that is what it God calls it when someone has trouble with a spirit. I did not take notes and do not recall the scripture verses shared during the teaching. My opinion? I don't think treatment can be dictated; what works for one may not work for someone else. If someone feels that by being ministered to to rid a spirit will work for him/her...and it works....praise God. If someone utilizes acupuncture, meds, nutrition, hypnotherapy, homeopathy, etc. to get help...and something works...praise God. I really don't give a flip how it happens; but just that a person gets help. That's my 2 cents. Maybe it made some sense.

Appropriately in black and white....with just a little color toward the end. (btw dooj, when I clicked your link on this thread it sent me to the open thread where I had to scroll up and click the link on that thread. Might just be my puter....)

Bubble Trouble I lived in a bubble for a long time. Every so often I'd try to poke through. I'd push and push Stretch that bubble But then.....BOING I'd bounce back and find myself in the same place again. Finally one day Along came a pin Pricked a hole in that bubble Decompression pulled me out But others were crushed within. Then I'll be damned when I find myself stuck to another bubble. Damn this bubble trouble! This time I'm on the outside A force inside trying to pull me in. I almost slip through but then I remember and poke that bubble with a pin. Some inside escape like I Others are crushed within. One thing for sure that I have determined Ain't no way in hell I'm going back in. Don't know if my poem is scientifically accurate.....but I hope you catch my drift.

Awesome ...... Thanks GT.....

Thanks Lori btw: Thank you too Lindyhopper. I'm surprised you can type after all those martinis in that thin air. The Frozen Guy bash sounds like fun. lol So I can come out West and enjoy Frozen Guy Weekend in March, then come in the summer to Burning Man. lol Sadly we aren't up to date with out artists' links and pics. That part of the website gets put on the back burner due to other priorities and the skeleton staff. We are trying to update...which is a continual process...of course. I know when you state "your idea," you are referring generically to artomat. But I must clarify that the concept is 100% Clark's child. I just came on board a year ago as childcare. And i've fallen in love with the kid (so to speak). Thanks again mstar!!!

rofl :biglaugh: You're kiddin? The Frozen Dead Guy Parade....roflmao....what the h is that?