Jeaniam

Doojable, You make some valid points. I wasn't talking about you in the comment about God. You have always impressed me as one of the more sane and level-headed posters.

I never meant to accuse ANYONE of lying nor to imply that I had concluded that anyone was. No, I do not believe that on this subject anyone really has all the answers, nor that there is one overall view that covers it all. That was actually the point I was trying to make. Excathedra, you're right I left that possibility (among others) out. That was an oversight, not by design, for which I apologize. The whole post was intended to amplify and explain my position, which is a reluctance to elect myself God on this issue. There are already enough posters who seem to want that job and seem to think they could do a better job than the One who has it now.

He did not turn away for any great length of time. In 1 Kings 15:3 it refers to David as a man whose "heart was perfect with the Lord his God", and that was after his death. I will concede that the results of his disobedience with Bathsheba were horrendous.

Back to David being a spiritual guy or not, in 1 Sam. 30 David is still basically a fugitive from Saul and he had been with Achish a Phillistine and told that the lords of the Phillistines favored him not. So he and his men came back to Ziklag and found the city burned and their wives stolen. In v. 7 he requests the Ephod to inquire of God. This was a successful thing; but wasn't the Ephod worn by the high priest? Why did David even HAVE the thing? Not bad for a guy who was public enemy #1 at the time. This is John. We forgot to switch AGAIN. Mea Culpa. Our bad.

And, yet AFTER all of that (not because of but after) he was referred to as a man after God's own heart.

I consider various possibilities when it comes to VPW's alleged sexual abuse. One of them IS that some of them are lying (No, I am not calling any one specific person a liar). One of them is that some of these women saw an opportunity to sleep their way to the top (and once again I am not talking about any one specific person). One of them is that some of these women read something into a situation that wasn't intended (and once again I am not talking about any specific person). There was one occasion where a married man occasionally made lewd remarks in my presence and directed to me, and I became disturbed and spoke to his wife, and his wife's best friend on the subject. The answer I was given was that the gentleman in question meant nothing whatsoever by his behavior, was not propositioning me, and had never been unfaithful to his wife. All of this I found out later to be true, and we are good friends to this day. All of this verbiage brings me once again to the conclusion that only One knows the whole truth about what went on all those years ago, and He isn't talking. And, no, I am not asking for anyone to repeat any horror strories in an effort to change my mind. It is my opinion that by this endless debate under the guise of this alleged "quest for the truth" we may very well be doing more harm than good when people reopen wounds that should be left to heal. On this point it might be better to agree to disagree and let it go at that. And, no, I do not worship VPW, and as I have pointed out somewhere else, I don't even think about him very much. When I pray, I don't think about him; when I SIT, I don't think about him; when I read the Bible, I don't think about him: I think about God. I have spent for more time thinking about him since I have begun spending time on Greasespot, than I had in years. For people who hate him as much as you do, you sure spend an awful lot of time talking about him. Great post, Eyes Open. You make a number of excellent points. You go, girl!!!!

Just responding to what someone else saw fit to bring up. And I am still not willing to elect myself God.

Yes, actually he is.

No need. John is one of the best husbands and fathers you will ever meet.

I said that about the alleged plagiarism and ONLY the alleged plagiarism.

Your own behavior is only damaging the case you want to make.

My daughter is not relevant to this disussion.

We're not trying to stir any thing up. This is a thread about the GOOD things VPW did for TWI. Sunesis, Wordwolf, and Rascal have nothing to add to a thread on that subject. Maybe if they got honest, they'd do what Greasy Tech did and leave. BTW, They are NOT trying to convince me with logic and facts. They're trying to inflame our emotions with a hypothetical post using our daughter as bait, hoping we'll get so angry that we'll lose sight of the facts and just respond emotionally, "By God if that SOB ever did that to MY daughter, I'd wring his neck and boil him in hot oil. Death would be too good for him. I'd, I'd, I'd kill him one very painful way, and then I'd bring back to life so I could kill him another very painful way." That's the response they're hoping to provoke, and it might very well be true. My daughter is very precious to me and I guard her very carefully, but she is not really relevant to this discussion; VPW was dead for 5 years before she was born.

As far as I know someone can be a girl AND a pervert. So, the alleged MO of VPW wasn't ugly and perverted? She wasn't just relating her own alleged experience. She was posing a situation that isn't even available since my daughter wasn't born until VPW had been dead for 5 years.

quote: Maybe the real question that should be asked is what good things did VPW do for the body of Christ?... I'll vote for 'Are the Dead Alive Now'. During his last SNS teaching at HQ, not even one month before he died, he reaffirmed that ADAN was the most important thing he ever taught, IHO. Before TWI I kind of leaned toward reincarnation, but his presentation of ADAN just made sense; still does. Once in a conversation with believers, we were all talking about which topic was more critical, JCING or ADAN. One guy said, "Which one has more devil spirits associated with it?", the obvious answer being ADAN. That song off the first Breakthrough recording paints a desperate picture of people trying to somehow get in touch with departed loved ones driving themselves crazy in the process. I haven't known many people like that, but the ones I HAVE known stand out. They just can't enjoy life; they're in bondage. ADAN delivers people from this. That's a good thing IMO.

In this situation, not only is one of the main participants dead, they both are. And I am not egotistical enough to believe that at this late date my opinion matters AT ALL.

It's a string of misunderstandings that involve something that happened on a different thread, and got carried over to this one. In a general sense on this thread I do want people to tell their stories of the good things that happened in TWI. In a certain narrow specific sense on a different thread, I don't. And that's as much detail as I am prepared to go into.

I recall saying that I didn't (and don't) think the whole truth is available at this late date. For the rest I think once again that these people read something into my posts that I didn't intend. I don't think I ever said or implied that I wanted any one to retell their story of whatever did or didn't happen in TWI.

You have told me your VERSION of what happened in TWI. And I have told you repeatedly my experience in TWI was very different. You have your explanation for that and I have mine. I don't think that means I have a problem with reality; I think it means that I am not going to run to ascribe the worst possible motivation to everyone I meet.

Actually I didn't say precisely that. Someone else took it upon themselves to embellish what I said. You need to pay attention and make sure you're reading accurately Hopefully not. I really have no intention of getting sucked into Rascal's and Word Wolf's universe on this thread.

I am not talking about that, I am only talking about his alleged plagiaism. That happened even more years ago than the other stuff, I know nothing about it, and I am not willing to get sucked into an endless debate on the subject. Since I KNOW that no one died and elected ME God while I was napping, I am once again not going to take it upon myself to sit in judgment, especially not on this topic.

I don't fall into the catagory of people who knew and didn't care. Right now I am only talking about his alleged plagiarism, not anything else.

As far as the "stalking" goes, this is a thread started by someone who wanted to say something good about VPW. Isn't it amazing that within the first few posts, there came Rascal and the thought police to make sure THAT didn't continue.

Do you mean like dotmatrix's sterling example?

No. Nothing to do with guts though. Still just really not interested enough.