Jeaniam

I don't presume anything. I have said from the beginning that I don't know and I am not prepared to take it upon myself to sit in judgment as you have. There is only One who knows the whole truth about what happened 20 or 30 years ago and He's not talking. I am appalled that you in your arrogance and hubris take it upon yourself to pry into other people's pain under the guise of "We need to get at the truth". I didn't have the INTEREST to read her account. Considering my only interaction with her, I'm not so sure I'm going to concede that she's a reputable poster. All I ever saw was men and women of integrity trying to do their best for God and His Word. I don't concede that that falls under the category of the "shined up polished public side". And, finally, that wasn't me, that was John. You need to pay attention.

No such paper on me exists because I never wrote one.

So what. STILL don't really care.

1 Cor 15:19 is talking about the hope. And BTW, I am not stalking Full Circle. I think this is the first time I have responded to one of his posts, or at least the first time I remember.

Quote: "If the best God can do is VP...to teach his word and lead his people, that is a God I want no part of." The best God could do to lead His people include David (an adulterer and a murderer) who God refers to as a man after his own heart and that's AFTER the aforementioned adultery and murder, and the apostle Paul (also a murderer) who received the revelation of the church epistles, without which we wouldn't know that these people WERE our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Are you really referring to your own posts as poop, or possibly another 8 letter word that means the same thing? Just curious. And BTW that's not a Bible quote.

Hi, I'm back. We occasionally forget to switch, which leads to confusion, but right now I'm me. No, it was not intended to be sarcastic, I switch gears very easily, and at that point I was done being serious, and it was intended as kind of a light-hearted wave in your direction or a light-hearted acknowledgement of what you had said to me. I think you have been fairly calm and even toned in this too, although I'm not sure we're ever going to agree. Vive le difference!!!

quote: How would that line up with Jesus` teaching about a tree unable to bear both good fruit and bad fruit? How would "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" line up with Jesus' teaching about a tree unable to bear both good fruit and bad fruit?

I knew some people who graduated in the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th Corps. I am not defending the men who (allegedly) did these things. I am defending the many fine men and women who would never do such things, nor tolerate them if they knew about them. As I have said before in the areas where I was the "doctrine" was that abstinence was the best plan, it was grounds for being dismissed from the WOW field, and I know personally of men (one of whom was a good friend of John's) that were removed from positions of leadership for sexual indiscretions, usually not a month or a week later, but the very same day the BC learned about their escapades. One of these episodes didn't even involve another believer or involve any thing approaching rape; it involved a man who hired a prostitute (which while still being a sin, at least just involved a prostitute doing what prostitutes do. I know that still doesn't excuse it). My point is that there were many fine men and women who took a stand against sexual indiscretions, and they do not deserve to be tarred with the same brush as the (possibly few) perverts. I never entered the Corps. Dooj, 'Vive la difference' to you, too.

No such paper on me exists. Oh, I'll clarify my intent. It was intended to demonstrate contempt for you. And BTW, The post where you used the phrase about people being not spiritually sophisticated to be able to handle the truth, your meaning is at best ambiguous, and at worst a lie.

So what? Don't really care.

I don't think a lot of it originated with him, but I think he might have been one of the first to put it in a really coherent package (PFAL). I think one of the great things he did was his work in the Holy Spirit field; the manifestations and fruit of the spirit, etc. I agree with you, TWI really took the nose dive after LCM took over and especially after VPW fell asleep. BTW, I'm really glad you started this thread.

Well, I disagree with that, unless you're using "corrupt" in the way that any organization with people in it is "corrupt". I also object to your assumption that anyone who disagrees with you is in your phrase "not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle the truth". So much for "if you don't learn from your mistakes, you're doomed to repeat them". Some of you have already begun to repeat the same mistakes that you claim to disdain in twi. And, Doojable, I don't agree with what you said about just because I didn't see it in the areas where I was means that the coverup or whatever you called was successful. I think that it means that there were a lot of good honest people who got involved with twi for just the reasons on the green card, and no ulterior motive whatsoever. Ain't it grand to have the ability to think for myself, instead of being told what to think by "Rascal-Mistress of darkness".

Doojable Okay, I'll consider it. I'm not so sure that I'm ready to consider that it was the accepted "doctrine", rather than an aberration. Once again, the doctrine for all the areas I was in was that even premarital sex was a poor idea, and extra marital sex was a worse one. I don't know how many times over the years I heard the admonition; "Men keep it in your pants, Ladies keep your pants on". During my WOW year, sex with another member of your family was grounds for dismissal. In return, I'd like you to at least consider the possibility that it was not as prevalent as some say. As I said before, what if the whole truth is that the many God-loving people who wouldn't do something like that under any circumstances far outweighed the few perverts. It doesn't excuse anything but I'm going to observe that in group the size twi grew to it's impossible to control the fact that some people got involved for less than pure motives. And, as a general aside, when you have someone using the phrase "people who are not spiritually sophisticated enough to handle the truth", I question how much some of you have learned from the mistakes of twi. The last time I heard that phrase being used, it was coming out of the mouth of (gasp, shock, awe, tell me it ain't so) twi leadership. Possibly some of you have some honesty to attain.

I don't think I have ever said "none of that matters now". The Way BECAME a corrupt organization (unless you're using that term in the way any human organization is corrupt). A fruitless effort? No, I don't accept that. Were not the dead raised, the blind receive sight, people receive healing from various diseases? I have a feeling that someone is going to come along and say that all those healings were frauds. I deny that, but believe whatever you want.

Is it? Or is it about reopening old wounds that might be better left to heal, and recounting old horror stories under the guise of getting at the truth? Once again, VPW is DEAD and beyond the point of hurting anyone (unless we get a reenactment of Carrie). Last time I looked, none of us are involved with TWI any more so none of us are in any position to change any thing there except by prayer. I'm certainly not going to pass on to my children that that kind of behavior is acceptable, but I'm not sure that I'm going to pass onto them that your (general not specific) kind of behavior is either.

Anyone who thanks people for sharing when their experiences "dovetail" with what other people have shared of their experiences, and ignores my post that points out that I was never treated with anything less than complete respect in the sexual area because it doesn't, is actively looking for only one side of the story in my book. What if the whole truth turns out to be that if it happened, it was a great deal less prevalent than some of us want to think. What if the whole truth is that the decent God-loving folks far out numbered the few perverts (or alleged perverts). BTW I've heard from the people who concede that the sexual abuse happened, that the argument about being somehow ignorant or not spiritually sophisticated was what they used to justify their actions.

There is a great deal of wisdom in what you say here. Does all of what we learned need to be correct? No, but I choose to hang on to a great deal that was good in the early days. Do all the leaders need to have been perfect? No, that is what Jesus Christ died for. There were weaknesses in men that lead to vile offensive practices. To the last question, I'm prone to answer "Yes!" also. Just don't try to jam your version of what happened down my throat. I still believe there is room for doubt. As you say, there were discrepancies in what was taught. Isn't it time to "agree to disagee" and move on? Very possibly, I doubt that I am going to be able to change your mind, And you are definitely not going to be able to change mine.

I have a variety of responses; it wasn't going on, it was going on but VPW didn't know about it, it was going on and he knew about it but wasn't a part of it, it was going on and he might have been a part of it, etc. etc etc. MY personal experience is that in the sexual area I was never treated with any thing less than complete respect at all times. During the training for my WOW year, it was emphasized repeatedly "This is not a time for sexual olympics. Gentlemen keep it in your pants, ladies keep your pants on", and where I was, that was adhered to, and that was in 1986. And you're right, this is a separate argument from whether the doctrine was sound. Once again I'm going to say that I received everything I said I was looking for when I signed the green card, and I still have those benefits today, a relationship with God, peace in the home, etc. etc. and I am not going to throw those things away no matter what twi turned into, and I am not going to feel guilty about having them either. What I was taught in twi was far greater than I was ever taught in any church incorruptible seed, a hope that didn't include a God with a baseball bat, speaking in tongues, how to pray effectively and the list goes on. Waysider, you're right, some of it was good, and some of it was bad. Towards the end a great deal of it was bad, but I don't want to see the good things tossed away or called worthless because of the bad.

It never did that for me. The church I was escaping from certainly made the hope something to be feared to the point that when I was very young I was afraid to go to sleep at night lest I should die in the night. And why some people need it to be less than ok

No, you just claimed that the miniscule bit that you know of John's personality should outweigh the twenty years of love, kindness, and loyalty that he and I have shared, and told me that I nneded to look beneath the surface and find out "the whole story". I am in possession of far more of the story than you are and have seen all of what lies beneath the surface. Possibly you need to look beneath the surface and find out the whole story, not just what backs up what you have already decided to believe.

I don't think you really want to get the entire picture, just enough negatives to justify what you have already made up your mind to believe. The entire picture is not available. Since one of the main alleged participants is dead there will always be a missing piece in the picture.

And as far as I know there never has been one and I imagine the statute of limitations has long since expired.

Well, I guess you can withhold your trust from VPW (who is the only one I'm discussing here) but I'm not sure I see the point since as I have said repeatedly; he's dead and has been for more than twenty years.

This is johniam; forgot to switch, sorry about that. quote: I notice that Rascal says things like "it seems that," or "somehow I don't think." At least she appears to be leaving some room for error. Yes, but she also says stuff like... quote: lets not examine the fruit of the spirit that will identify whether our leader are of the flesh or of the spirit TOO closely because we really don`t want to KNOW what the source of their power was...geeze ..it just isn`t honest. ...and... quote: I think that sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty. ...clearly implying that a) the TWI leaders were from the devil, and b) posters like me are arrogant and dishonest. She leaves no room for human error; she's RIGHT, and ANY disagreement is WRONG! Yes, my post was judgemental, but at least I left room for Rascal to do better, plus, that IS what I think is going on with her. So, in reality, I'M the one who's being honest.