Jeaniam

I don't have a problem with the idea that Mary might have had a father and a husband with the same name, since I have frequently observed that John (my husband) is in the unusual position of a man who has a mother, a sister, and a wife who all have the same first name; which has occasionally wreaked havoc on our respective credit reports and led to John and myself owning a rental property in Maine, etc., etc. The word 'husband' in Matthew 1:16 is the word 'aner' which is translated fellow once, husband fifty times, man 156 times, and sir six times according to the Young's concordance, so it seems to me that it is at least possible that it wrongly translated husband in Matthew. Another spot, I really have no idea exactly what it means; but while I was reading Genesis 3:15 on this thread it struck me that God specifically said the 'seed of the woman' and doesn't mention Adam at all. Of course it is at least possible that when God said 'I will put enmity between thee (the serpent) and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel' that who God was really talking about was Mary, just a guess and I really have nothing Biblical to substantiate that other then the fact that God didn't use Eve's name.

Yes it really is a shame how many marriages were ruined by the same organisation that claimed to promote healthy marriages. John has always said that when the minister at our wedding said the words 'what God has joined together, let no man put asunder' and 'I now declare you husband and wife' something spiritual happened and he has held firm to that through many temptations to do otherwise. I regret the pain that many of you have gone through. I would they were even cut off that troubled you.

Obviously, God feels a sense of responsibility to all human beings (not just believers). He keeps the world turning, rain falling on the just and unjust. I'm sure it would have been just as easy for Him to wipe out the human race at the point of the fall of man, say 'Okay, failed experiment, let's try something different' and move on; but He didn't. He came up with the plan of salvation, spent many centuries executing it just so He could have a family. As pond says it is God's will for all men to be saved, but that doesn't mean they will be. The born again doctrine may be an ultra exclusionary doctrine, but that is how God set it up in this day and time (and BTW He made it about as easy as He could; men don't have to do anything to earn it, they just have to accept the gift God is giving them); if you don't like it argue with Him. I don't think the born-again ones necessarily think better, love better, know better, act better, etc. than any non born-again ones. Nor do I believe that the Bible says anywhere that they are the superior human beings. In the first century a great deal of the world did follow them and convert to Christian beliefs, but in the first century men and women of God demonstrated the power of God, which a great many Christians for centuries did not. In the first century the DIFFERENCE (not superiority) of a born-again believer was observed through the power they demonstrated. Anyone who has ever seen me angry would be disabused of the idea that I am a superior human being. I agree that Agape can't really be pinpointed. In 2 Peter 1:7- we are exhorted to add 'to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity (Agape). At what point in this process does brotherly kindness (phileo) become charity (agape)? Is it a sudden event or a slow process whereby the selfish elements in phileo are filtered out and phileo slowly rises to the level of agape? I personally vote for the slow process notion; it's been ongoing in my life for more than thirty years and I still don't think I've gotten there.

That's a very good point, JJ, I've never really thought it through like that, but it seems to me to be true, and it allows for the possibility of many people in other Christian groups getting born-again which was something it always seemed TWI went out of their way to deny. BTW what happened to the baby with the big cup of coffee. I liked it better than what you have now.

It's about the same as pointing out that half the human race doesn't have the ability to menstuate because they don't have ovaries Are men lesser people because they can't menstruate or women special or better because they can. No, it's just a fact of heredity. So the ability to love with agape is just a matter of spiritual heredity and doesn't necessarily make one group of people special or better than another. And it is certainly of grace because nowhere in the Bible does it say that born-again believers did anything to earn this; it was all part of the gift of God.

VPW taught that when the angel said to Joseph 'Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife', Matthew 1:20 KJV, it was in sexual sense. That when JC was conceived it was a virgin conception, but by the time JC was born Mary was no longer a virgin, but Joseph had been given permission by God to have sexual relations with her. VPW also taught that in Matthew 1:16 when it says 'And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ', that the word 'husband' should have been translated 'father' of Mary and added that otherwise the generations don't add up to fourteen. I want to go on record that I also am not by any means a Greek scholar.

1) By creation, but in this day and time God says He requires the new birth. 2) True. 3) Not according to the Bible.

Thanks, Bolshevik & Mr. Hamm. I don't know about worms and fleas, but I heard that the TC had been sent to prison (insider trading and embezzlement). I'm sorry about the mammoth illogic with you and your wife. It's just amazing what some people began to do.

The tire issue was one point of contention, but the real dividing line was our son. He has a learning disorder (autism) and shortly before the relationship was severed, our TC and BC called a meeting at the BC's house and grilled us about his behavior (he was three at the time). They questioned whether he helped around the house, picked up his room, took care of his clean clothes, etc., etc.. When I said he was very good at those kind of tasks (which he is, better than his sister, who usually has to be reminded), the TC smiled indulgently and said that it was only natural for a mother to lie in those circumstances. Soon afterward we received a letter saying that since our son had a behavior problem that was not being corrected (probably due to a devil spirit) and had no physical condition that accounted for his behavior he (and I) were no longer welcome at fellowship, but John and our daughter were. Shortly after that I gave birth to our third child who was diagnosed with several rare physical (genetic) disorders. It seemed probable to the doctors that these genetic disorders also affected our other children. I sent a copy of the diagnosis to the TC and BC. They didn't care. After that we began to fellowship elsewhere, instead of pursuing a divorce, which is probably what the TC and BC really wanted. That was the culmination of a period of years during which the TC complained to John about what a terrible wife and mother I was behind my back, and exhorted him to be more of a 'REAL MAN' and stand up to me. Anyone who knows John at all should know what BS that is. Some people here on greasespot seem to think that we have the opposite problem and I don't stand up to John enough. Neither position is correct; we have a very good relationship which both of us are satisfied with.

Is it significant that Genesis 3:15 refers only to the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman (Eve)? It doesn't refer to the seed of Adam or the joint seed of Adam and Eve, but only the seed of Eve.

I recently saw a TV show supporting gay and lesbian rights and the subect under consideration was whether it would be legal to put two women's names on a birth certificate as two mothers. one woman had donated an egg to be fertilized by an anonymous sperm donor and then implanted in the other woman's uterus and carried to term. The lawyer for the two women argued (successfully) that since both women were linked to the child by biology it was appropriate to issue a birth certificate with two mother sections. It doesn't seem to me that the woman who carried the child to term and then gave birth to it was any more genetically linked to the child than a test tube would be. She contributed none of the child's genetic makeup (no DNA, etc.). The reason I bring this up is in the light of did Mary actually contribute to Jesus Christ's genetic makeup and if so, what? In Hebrews 2:14 it says the children are parakers of flesh and blood but Jesus Christ only took part of the same. Of course this is only in the KJV and I haven't begun to research the Greek.

I wasn't implying that I don't tell John when I think he's wrong. I do (sometimes at great length). Sometimes he changes his mind and comes to agree with me; sometimes I change my mind and come to agree with him, and sometimes one or the other throws up our hands in disgust and says 'Okay, learn from your mistakes then". It very rarely comes down to John saying 'I'm the head of this family and we're going to do it my way'. I think John (or any other husband) is obligated to LISTEN to his wife's point of view. I don't think he's obligated to agree with her every time, and on those occasions there needs to be a person to act as tie-breaker.

And another one. Enjoy youselves. Thanks very much, Bramble. From a strictly mathematical viewpoint: What Equals 100%? What does it mean to give MORE than 100%? Ever wonder about those people who say they are giving more than 100%? We have all been in situations where someone wants you to give over 100%. How about achieving 101%? What equals 100% in life? Here's a little mathematical formula that might help you answer these Questions: If: A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z Is represented as: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 20 21 22 23 24 25 26. Then: H-A-R-D-W-O-R- K 8+1+18+4+23+15+18+11 = 98% and K-N-O-W-L-E-D-G-E 11+14+15+23+12+5+4+7+5 = 96% But, A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E 1+20+20+9+20+21+4+5 = 100% AND, look how far the love of God will take you L- O- V- E-O-F-G-O-D 12+15+22+5+15+6+7+15+4 = 101% Therefore, one can conclude with mathematical certainty that: While Hard work and Knowledge will get you close, and Attitude will get you there, it's the Love of God that will put you over the top!

On the lighter side I thought you might enjoy this. It's an e-mail a friend of mine sent to me, and it seemed to fit with the subject. Installing Love Tech Support: Yes, ... how can I help you? Customer: Well, after much consideration, I've decided to install Love. Can you guide me though the process? Tech Support: Yes. I can help you. Are you ready to proceed? Customer: Well, I'm not very technical, but I think I'm ready. What do I do first? Tech Support: The first step is to open your Heart. Have you located your Heart? Customer: Yes, but there are several other programs running now. Is it okay to install Love while they are running? Tech Support: What programs are running ? Customer: Let's see, I have Past Hurt, Low Self-Esteem, Grudge and Resentment running right now. Tech Support: No problem, Love will gradually erase Past Hurt from your current operating system. It may remain in your permanent memory but it will no longer disrupt other programs. Love will eventually override Low Self-Esteem with a module of its own called High Self-Esteem. However, you have to completely turn off Grudge and Resentment. Those programs prevent Love from being properly installed. Can you turn those off ? Customer: I don't know how to turn them off. Can you tell me how? Tech Support: With pleasure. Go to your start menu and invoke Forgiveness. Do this as many times as necessary until Grudge and Resentment have been completely erased. Customer: Okay, done! Love has started installing itself. Is that normal? Tech Support: Yes, but remember that you have only the base program. You need to begin connecting to other Hearts in order to get the upgrades. Customer: Oops! I have an error message already. It says, "Error - Program not run on external components ." What should I do? Tech Support: Don't worry. It means that the Love program is set up to run on Internal Hearts, but has not yet been run on your Heart. In non-technical terms, it simply means you have to Love yourself before you can Love others. Customer: So, what should I do? Tech Support: Pull down Self-Acceptance; then click on the following files: Forgive-Self; Realize Your Worth; and Acknowledge your Limitations. Customer: Okay, done. Tech Support: Now, copy them to the "My Heart" directory. The system will overwrite any conflicting files and begin patching faulty programming. Also, you need to delete Verbose Self-Criticism from all directories and empty your Recycle Bin to make sure it is completely gone and never comes back. Customer: Got it. Hey! My heart is filling up with new files. Smile is playing on my monitor and Peace and Contentment are copying themselves all over My Heart. Is this normal? Tech Support: Sometimes. For others it takes awhile, but eventually everything gets it at the proper time. So Love is installed and running. One more thing before we hang up. Love is Freeware. Be sure to give it and its various modules to everyone you meet. They will in turn share it with others and return some cool modules back to you. Customer: Thank you, God.

Someone who was pretty wise once told me that there was a lot of freedom in the Bible, which I guess I used for an excuse whenever I thought I saw something in my marriage that didn't quite agree with TWI's version of what they thought my marriage shoud be. So what if I'm better at car mechanics than John is. It doesn't make me unfeminine in his book or him less masculine in mine. I wouldn't worry if you mess something up or not. Almost none of our family vacations turn out according to plan, and it's an open question who does more to mess them up; him or me. We've learned to stay flexible and change plans as need be. Last year I reserved a motel room that sounded really good on paper and when we got there it was grossly inadequate for our family. We found an ad in the newspaper for a one bedroom condo on the beach that only cost $10 more a night than the motel room. We ended up having a great time and are still laughing about it. The moral is: Don't worry about messing up so much, stay spontaneous and flexible, and have a good time.

I don't know whether or not God blesses somebody for just going along with something they think is wrong, but sometimes you have to allow your husband (or wife) to learn from their mistakes if you can't talk him out of it. That's the exact point I was trying to get at. Thanks, Bolshevik. BTW, how old is your son, and do you have other children?

I received a couple of cool e-mails on this subject that I could post if I could figure out how to transfer them from my inbox to this thread. Does anyone out there have any suggestions? I'm pretty computer illiterate. Thanks.

John and I have three children and for a while worked opposite shifts, so he has had lots of practice. Even learned how to change the cloth diapers. Well back to business. In our marriage, John's position as head of the household usually meant that he acted as tie-breaker when there was a tie (he has one vote and I have one vote, and what do you do when there's a tie and both people are adamant about their position?). Sometimes he considers the logic of what I said and ultimately decides my way, sometimes he doesn't. I don't believe that when the Bible talks about a woman as a weaker vessel it means that she's a second class citizen. It seems to me that the only way a woman is 'weaker' than a man is in the physical category (and not always then). The other part of that section (which usually gets overlooked) calls for men to love their wives as their own bodies. I agree that the older TWI got, the more messed up it got in this category.

We were always in trouble because I knew what size tires went on the car, and John could change a mean diaper if the need arose. The last ROA we went to, some of the Corps wives were coordinating their work schedules in order to leave their children with each other instead of their husbands; I guess because REAL MEN don't change diapers.

No, it doesn't make one person better than another, and I'm not sure that I know how to put the difference into words. I saw a TV show last night about a man who jumped onto subway tracks to save a complete stranger's life at the risk of his own. Does that fall into the catagory of unselfish love? Certainly. Is that man a born-again Christian? Only God knows the answer to that question. So at what point does phileo rise to agape? In Hebrews 4:12- it says 'For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.' So it may be that agape is a kind of love that allows us to keep loving when even the best of phileo gives up and can't go any farther. It seems reasonable to assume that to tap into that kind of love, a human being would need God's help. I don't think it's arrogant to believe that we are capable of doing what God says plainly that we can do. It is arrogant to think we do it perfectly without falling short, or think we can do it without God's help, or think that somehow it makes us better than anyone else. It seems to me that what is arrogant is to contradict God. Thanks for your post (at 3:16) another spot, very clarifying. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the "holy thing" post in the light of Hebrews 2:14-' he also himself likewise took part of the same', which we were taught meant that Jesus took the flesh but not the blood. Hard to grasp.

It is not a question of who is 'permitted' to practice agape but rather a recognition of the fact that according to the Bible, anyone who is not born again and therefore does not have the gift of holy spirit doesn't have the ability to practice agape. It may be distasteful to me (as caribousam said) but it does seem to be clear in the Bible. I also don't believe in the trinity but I am not sure I would describe Jesus as 'just' a man. He was the only begotten Son of God. I heard someone teach that fact conferred on him divinity but not deity. I am not sure we have the ability to live a perfect life just because Jesus was a man and did it nor do I think we have the need to do so because Jesus did it in our place and his perfection covers for our imperfections and he also paid for our healings. I have seen miracles and healings happen in my life; I have had the privilege of being on the giving and the receiving end of miracles and healings; not as often as I would like but enough that I believe they are still available. I don't really know why they are as rare as they seem to be.

I like that phrase too, 'the Love of God has been poured out in our hearts'. I recently heard a teaching wherein the teacher compared the abundance we receive from God to a flowing stream. Could it be that the Love of God also bears some resemblance to a stream flowing that we can dip into as the needs arise? Many very interesting posts recently; thanks very much for food for thought, W.G., and another spot. And, Sunesis, apparently once again I underestimated you. Any chance we could start over. Hi, I'm jeaniam; very pleased to make your acquaintance.

It could be another instance where something is predestination from God's perspective and free will from man's perspective. I am thinking of Joseph rising to be second in command of Egypt just in time to save the nation of Israel from starvation in a famine, and also of Esther, who rose to a position of power just in time to preserve the Christ line. Did God have something to do with the cicumstances that allowed both of them to be in those positions at a strategic time? Yes, definitely, but each of them had to be willing to do God's will by the freedom of their own will (and for both of them it involved risking their lives to do so). He altered what happened in Ninevah.

I think the point is that Jesus Christ went through that so you don't have to. But I know what you mean; I couldn't even stand to watch that part in "The Passion of the Christ".

No one that I know of, and I'm from Grand Rapids, Michigan.