Jeaniam

I'm not sure about the revision or different question. John may have some definitive thoughts on that. It seems to me that he taught his disciples how to love both by instruction and example, and then appointed them to be his 'deputies' so to speak and teach the rest of humanity how to love by instruction and example. It wasn't available for even Jesus Christ to be in more than one place at one time, but if he taught twelve men and then those twelve men taught twelve more etc. etc., then you have what we see in the book of Acts. Sorry about the triple post, I'm still learning how to do some things. I guess twelve is a bite-size group of people to teach and impart one's heart to. I once heard someone say that VPW regretted the days of small Way Corps because as he put it 'in the smaller Way Corps, he (VPW) knew when everybody went to the bathroom, but as the size increased it was impossible for him to be as personally involved as he wanted to be'. This is not necessarily meant to be an endorsement of VPW, but in this instance what he said makes good sense.

I don't think I meant to imply that is up to me to decide that anyone is inferior or otherwise unfit. I think it is impossible to tell from the outside of a person whether they are born-again or not. It is possible for God to tell me and also it's possible for God to tell me if a person will or won't become born again at some point in the future, but I think there would have to be a good reason for Him to tell me that and a good reason that I would need to know that; otherwise it seems to me that that information is really none of my business.

Interesting point, Bolshevik. Certainly, he knew what he did, he had compassion. It seems to me that accepting his suffering was a decision of his own in that he himself said that he laid down his life and no man took it from him, and also that he had at his call legions of angels that he chose not to call on. I'm not sure that relieves the people who inflicted the wounds on him of their responsibility.

I guess it is questionable if we can legitimately say that you love God whom we have not seen if we don't love our neighbor whom we have seen. Just a thought. I meant it metaphorically. 'Walked on' as in being tortured and died, although I think there were times that he had plans to go into the wilderness and pray and had to change his plans because the multitude followed him and interrupted him.

Well, obviously, Jesus Christ got walked...on. Crushed, to be more specific. And obviously, he gave and gave and gave, more than any human being ever did before or since. He sacrificed his whole life for our good. He never did one self-seeking thing and he gave up all the things any normal man wants. He never married, never had children, probably never knew the release of having sex, and ended his life in torture and cruelty that were unequalled before or since. It seems to me that the definition that TWI developed for agape is probably accurate 'the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation' no matter how cold it may seem. Agape love starts in the mind or as an act of the will, and is not an emotion, although it may issue forth or manifest itself as an emotion. I am not sure about the part about 'loving when there is absolutely nothing in it for yourself'; even Christ was apparently motivated by something being in it for him. In Hebrews 12:2 it says that Jesus Christ endured the cross for the joy that was set before him, and despised the shame, etc. I'm still thinking over the 'renewed' mind and trying to see about Biblical backing for that. And, templelady, unfortunately, in this day and time, we (the whole human race) are not all 'childen of God', but being a 'child of God' requires belief in Romans 10:9&10. This may be 'elitist' as you say, but than God must be an 'elitist' since He is the one who set it up that way. And, Bolshevik, I am sorry about the indifference of people in the past, but we care NOW.

That's not really what caribousam said. I think that the point cs was trying to make is that you can't really love with agape without having been born again, and having received holy spirit. Agape seems to go beyond loving your neighbor as you would wish yourself to be loved into loving someone when there is absolutely nothing in it for yourself.

You make a number of very good points. I also have asked God to help me by purifying or cleaning my heart and He has as it says in Psalm 51:10-12--"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free (willing) spirit". We have been taught that some of those things are not available in this administration but there have been many times in my life when I asked God to restore me to the great joy I first felt when I realized I was born again of incorruptible seed. It's very true that we need to examine our 'differences' with other groups and make sure that we are not quibbling over semantics or a situation where both groups are saying the same thing but it sounds odd because we're not used to hearing it phrased a different way. Great post, T-Bone. I wish I'd said that.

That's the real problem, that you and others like you think that your opinion is worth more than God's. You don't know what his current motives are, but you're prepared to sit in judgement anyway. And BTW how does spewing garbage behind someone's back fall into the category of holding THEM accountable? Especially when you have no idea what you're talking about.

It seems to me that is exactly the point that Peter was trying to make in his epistles; and I still don't think God is so stupid that He would tell us to do something that He already knew we were incapable of doing. I doubt that He gets some kind of cheap thrill from watching us frustrate ourselves. It really seems to me that He tells us to love that way, He tells us how to love that way, He gives us a list of what it is and is not, He provides us with examples of that love in action (Thanks T-Bone), and He gives us the ability to love like that (holy spirit). Good post, T-Bone.

A DISCUSSION??? It's a discussion where you're expected to agree with the majority viewpoint and the majority viewpoint is 'we hate TWI and everything it stands for and ever stood for' and if you dare to disagree with that, you get hounded and occasionally told that you're not welcome. This place is just about as arbitrary and legalistic as TWI ever was on its worst day. If I don't have any interest in what you're trying to 'teach' me, I will soon find myself in the position of having it rammed down my throat whether I want it or not. But if you're "good friends" with Rascal that explains a lot. And BTW, God really loves all of you as much as He does me; "like", well, that might be a different matter. Well, that is your choice, just as where I choose to contribute my money is my choice and I don't have to justify it to you or anyone else.

Well, I don't think I'm being deceived or used and as far as I know my money is not being used to promote evil. Unforunately you are not only concerned with where YOUR money is being used; you have taken upon yourself the responsibility to decide how other people's money is being used, and apparently decide that it's being used for evil when you have no idea if that is true or not. Maybe you should confine yourself to finding out how your donations are being used (if there are any). And it is not your business when I didn't ask for your opinion (and to be perfectly honest, don't really value it).

I had since I was a child had a real desire to have a personal relationship with God, and the church I was in didn't provide that. At best their prayer life was a hit-or-miss proposition to an arbitrary jerk of a God who might turn you down if He had gotten up on the wrong side of Heaven that morning; and who enjoyed making His children miserable 'to keep them humble'. PFAL answered many of my questions and put me on the track to getting answers for the rest. I guess that was where I found my personal answer to Matthew 5:6.

Yes, we are able to love like God does. God has too much sense to tell us to do something if He knows full well that we can't do it. He knows we can do it because along with the instruction, He also gave us the ability to fulfill the instruction. Certainly, we will fail. That's part of being human. God doesn't expect us to do it perfectly; that's what He sent His Son for: to do it perfectly in our place, because He already knew we couldn't. He DOES expect us to do it faithfully; to keep on picking ourselves up when we fail, and keep on trudging on. I think it's notable that not only did Christ on the cross ask God to forgive the men who crucified him but so did Stephen, when he was being stoned to death, intercede for the men who were stoning him; and that group of men included Saul who went on to become the Apostle Paul. So, agape love involves loving when there may be nothing in for ourselves and, also when we have no idea what the whole profit is. BTW, Sunesis, great post. I may have underestimated you. Mea culpa

No, he doesn't. God is fully capable of recompensing to me any money I was 'scammed' out of by TWI or anyone else. If the people at TWI misused the money I freely gave that is their problem, not mine and very likely God will hold them accountable. Right now I have no reason to think that the group I am involved with is misusing my gifts in any way, and no one has suggested that it is incumbent on me to give ANYTHING nor have I myself ever taken it upon myself to suggest to anyone that it is incumbent upon them to give ANYTHING. The projects that I know my gifts have been used for have my full support, not that is really any of anyone's business to criticize. What does any of the money that you donate get used for, or is the reality that you no longer give anything?

I remember a time when 'in the household' was not a part of the definition of agape, so that must have come later. In 1 Peter 1:22 it says "Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love each other with a pure heart fervently:". In the first part of this verse the word 'love' and the word 'purified' are the words 'phileo' and 'hagnizo' respectively and refer to human qualities or efforts. In the second part of the verse the words 'pure' and 'love' are the words 'katharos' and 'agape' respectively and refer to qualities that are reserved to God. To me this verse suggests that the people to whom Peter was writing had already gone as far as they could go on a human level and now needed to go on to love on a spiritual level. In 2 Peter 1:5-7 it says "And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness (phileo); and to brotherly kindness (phileo) charity (agape)". It suggests that there is a process that begins with faith (the new birth or believing) and ends with agape that believers need to go through to, as it says in verse 8, "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall niether be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ". So I would conclude from these two places in the Bible as well as 1 Cor. 13 that agape does not represent arrogance but is probably a quality or level of love that we need God's help to attain. BTW, good post T-bone. Food for thought.

BikerBabe, Great post. Thanks for sharing your insight. I never thought about it from your perspective. I have found that when dealing with people who are dealing with tremendous physical pain or a death in the family, etc., that even taking their hand and saying something along the lines of 'I don't know what to say to you' at least indicates that you're there for them if they need to talk or vent. At least most of the people I've dealt with seemed to be encouraged by it.

For one thing, the percentage we were talking about was in regard to the ABS, not the charge for taking the class. For another the usual charge for taking the class was $25.00, not $100.00, and that covered materials for the class, refreshments, and other extraneous expenses involved in the class. I really like the idea that at least 85% of the ABS stays right in the area where it was generated and can be used for needs in that area, rather than what was the case in TWI; where ALL the ABS went to headquarters and very little of it ever found it's way back. As I've said before, the ABS in our area has been used to help various people who for one reason or another found themselves under financial pressure. It sounds pretty Christlike to me. In the gospels, it refers to Judas as being the treasurer (or keeper of the bag) for the group but it never (as far as I know) says how that money was generated, so even Christ carried money around for some purpose apparently. At least my ABS isn't currently ending up in TWI's coffers of millions.

Yes, the good things can be attributed to individuals, and so can the bad things, and not the ministry as a whole. My WOW year was a nightmare, and I was profoundly grateful for it to be over; but yet I learned many good things during that year, and I would never blame the program as a whole for my bad experience. The program delivered what I had signed on the line for (and much more), and that wasn't negated by the behavior of the other members of my 'family'. As I think John has said, some of the best people I have ever met have been Corp grads, and some of the biggest a$$holes also. I think that as the ministry became more and more worldly, the quality of the leadership diminished. One gentleman I had the privilege of knowing was a 2nd Corp grad and he was one of the finest people I have ever met; a man of great integrity who talked the walk, and walked the talk. I have also known men of lesser integrity who went out of their way to believe lies about me and my family. As I believe both of us have said at different times, our obligation to 'obey' our leadership is premised on the idea that they are ministers to us for good. It is the same principle as the ones that govern the relation of parent and child; 'Children, obey your parents in the Lord", and "Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath". The Word once again functions as a "two-edged sword", not merely one-edged.

I think the license allows you to offer the classes he teaches, and I guess I think 15% of 10% doesn't really work out to very much money.

Well, not all the milk is sour. I continue to believe that what I was taught of the Word works in my life. I think the 'store' DID sell me milk that was fresh. As I have said many times before; everything I said I wanted when I signed the green card, I received in PFAL. Men may have let me down, and they may have to answer for that; but God never has, and I continue to place my trust in Him.

....Oops, double post

A preliminary word search reveals that the two words, 'free' and 'will' are used in conjunction mostly in the Old Testament and are used in terms of 'freewill offerings'. The main uses seem to be in the books of the law which describe the difference between 'freewill offerings' and those used to pay a vow. Lev. 23:23- "Either a bullock or a lamb that hath anything superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted." The other uses seem to be along the same line. I don't see the two words used in conjunction in Genesis, in relation to the creation of Adam and Eve; nor in the New Testament, in the Church epistles; but this is a very preliminary word search that I need to put on hold for the time being. My daughter wants to use the computer. Good luck.

I'm not sure if you and I have had much interaction or if we have, whether or not it has been pleasant. I hope it has. I too am sorry to see you go. My father had MS. If there is any information I can give you please let me know. In the meantime, I will remember you in my prayers.

It sounds like it might be a lawsuit filed by TWI against someone.

I have no idea. I think if I cared enough to find out, an accounting would be given me, but right at this point I haven't cared enough to find out and I'm not sure I care enough now. My attitude in giving is to allow God to bless my life and the lives of my family. If CG or any other minister is mis-using the ABS that is their problem and they will no doubt have to answer to God for it. Besides, I don't even know if the figure you mentioned ($2000) is even accurate.