Jeaniam

I don't know and I am still not going to take it upon myself to sit in judgment. In the areas I personally was in I had leaders who were adamant on the rule that pre-marital sex was not a really good idea, and extra-marital sex was a worse one. Yes, before I was married I had men who made passes at me; some pretty enthusiastic ones but there was no one who didn't back off when I said "No" and I only ever had to say it once.

Well, let's take a good look at the Bible then and see who lived a less than exemplary life. Adam committed the first sin, he should be gone. Cain committed the first murder-out. Moses killed someone-out. Saul was a devil worshipper and attempted murderer-out. David was an adulterer and murderer-there go big chunks of Kings and Chronicles, all of Psalms etc. Solomon was a bigamist- there goes Proverbs and Song of Solomon. Moving on to the New Testament, Peter denied Christ several times-he's gone. Judas Iscariot- well how low can you go? The apostle Paul murdered believers- there goes most of the book of Acts, the epistles (church and otherwise). Therefore we should be humble enough to concede that nothing they wrote is of any value and we should start over from scratch and rewrite the Bible from our independent (and no doubt pure) revelation. Good luck, send me a copy when you're done.

Not without VPW's presence in court they wouldn't. If the defendant is dead there is no court case.

No, I haven't made up my mind at all. I don't know whether it happened or not, but I am not one of the ones who has taken it upon myself to sit in judgment. Once again, I will say you don't have evidence, you have the "stories" that people told, and all you have access to is one side of the story. I also find it interesting that now when it suits you, you quote one of the "evil" WC grads. I have spoken to ordained clergy who claim it happened, and I have spoken to ordained clergy who say that if it was going on they saw no signs of it. So, I will say again that I don't believe it is possible to find out the whole truth (VPW is dead, and no one can ask him). And once again I will refer you to the post "Paid in Full".

That is just it, rascal, you have no "evidence", all you have is bunch of statements that would be called in a court of law hearsay. It is not even available to find out the whole story. No one can call VPW and ask him what his side is since he's dead. And as far as your statement that I don't answer you on a point by point basis, I suggest you reread the PMs. Any time any one makes a point you don't have an answer for you just ignore them. I'm still waiting for an answer on whether YOU knew VPW or LCM personally as well as various other points. BTW neither John or myself believes in the positive nature of present day twi (although I hear they're trying to clean up their act) nor do we thank God for men (and women) who abused our brothers and sisters, but I will point out again that Jesus Christ who paid the highest price of any man seemed to think the things he bled and died for to be worth the price. Any of you been scourged and nailed to a cross recently?

I have no desire to start again from scratch. As I mentioned once before thirty yers ago when I signed the green card, I said I was looking for certain things and all those things I received from PFAL. I agree with you 100% sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty, and maybe this honesty should begin with you.

Once again do you never realize that that is exactly what you do. You haven't done a thing that falls in the category of not behaving, lol.

Well said White Dove, and Eyesopen

And I will third it. Well said doojable!!!

You are reading something into my post that I never meant to say. I am not laying any thing at God's feet nor blaming him for any thing. "How could any knowledge learned be worth what was suffered?" Then I guess Pentacost and the ability to be born again and speak in tongues, and have direct access to God in prayer weren't worth what Jesus Christ went through. John understated the case when he referred to you as sociapath. Dooj, you make some very good points. I think at some point we stopped regarding twi as a human organization with human faults and began equating God and twi.

Absolutely, and I didn't mean to point a finger at you, or read something into your post that wasn't there. There are people who seem to want to lump all WC into one evil mass under a sweeping condemnation. Twi proved to be a human organization with a human organization's faults. That's life. While I have no desire to still be affiliated with them, not everything they taught me proved to be a broken cistern.

Your observations are valid, and I don't doubt that for a minute, especially in later years as twi became more and more religious. This is something you clearly have more firsthand knowledge about, since I never went through the WC training, but the WC men and women that I remember with affection were, and are, men and women who managed to balance knowledge and heart. And if they erred at all, tried to err on the side of too much heart rather than too much knowledge. I appreciated your comments about if there were people you hurt by getting them involved with twi in its later years they followed you out when you left.

I don't think that recognizing the good things about twi at its conception means that I am trying to hold onto something with no substance. When I think back to when I first signed the green card and the list of things it claimed to provide that I said I wanted, I don't think that there is one of those things that I didn't have when I finished PFAL. Most of them I still have today, thirty years later. Yes, twi proved to be a fallible human organization with plenty of faults, but it still brought many people deliverence, and once again I will concede that people have frequently let me down, but God never has. And, BTW, only one man suffered and died to buy my happiness, and God gave Him one heck of a reward.

Maybe we had unreasonable expectations of the Way Corps. We allowed ouirselves to forget that they are fallible human beings like all the rest of us, and put them on some sort of pedestal just one step below Jesus Christ himself. Some of the Corps grads that I remember with great affection remained uncorrupted by power (absolute or otherwise).

Someone once told me you were a part of the Eleventh Corp band 'Called Out'. I still have one of their tapes and enjoy listening to it very much. If they were mistaken, I apologise. In reference to what you said about blaming the Corps but letting God off the hook, perhaps we should consider the story of Joseph. Here is a man who repeatedly got screwed by people but continued to trust God, and God continued to come through for him. His own brothers were so envious of him that they were on the verge of killing him but sold him as a slave as an acceptable substitute. In Egypt, he was bought by a rank unbeliever and rose to a position of great respect. Then his owner's wife lied about him and he was thrown in jail, where once again he trusted God, and rose to a position of great respect. Then a friend promised to intercede with Pharoah on his behalf and forgot about him for two years until Pharoah had a dream that needed interpretation. Then in a short period of time he was released from prison, elvated to the position of second man in the kingdom, showered with honors, and given a wife. Nowhere in that story is it recorded that he became bitter at his treatment, blamed God or other people for his treatment, lost faith, or turned his back on God, of any of the other self-pitying options that were no doubt available to him. It IS recorded that he continued to trust God, and God came through for him. Isn't it possible that God will come through for us if we continue to trust him? Thanks for listening.

I am not attempting to blame the Corps for anything. The incidents I was referring to occurred on my WOW year between myself and people who never availed themselves of Corps training. Many of the people I was aquainted with who DID avail themselves of that training were some of the finest people I ever met. No, I don't believe God lets us down, but as we have been taught even God can't overcome man's freedom of will. If a man is determined to be ignorant and hurtful, then he will, and not even God can stop him. BTW, I still have one of your tapes.

Well, then maybe God is helping you move to a path of greater understanding.

Rascal, do you never realise that that is exactly what you have done?

Thank you very much, Simon Zealotes, Lifted Up, and Doojable. You made some points far better than I ever could. I had some very negative experiences in twi, but I don't blame the whole organisation for them, just the immaturity of the other people involved. Men may have let me down, God never has.

My husband and I have been married 18 years, and have known each other 22. We have three children. We certainly agree with you about being sold out on God and His Word. It's nice to hear from someone who still believes in God and His Word and is still positive. You go, girl!!!!! Socks: great poem. Thanks for allowing us to share your anniversary. And for the gentleman in the middle of a divorce: you will be in my prayers. I wish you well.

You say that you are the mother of a "unique" child. Does that translate to being the mother of a special needs child, to use the politically correct phrase. Jean

BTW in then early days of this country, the way the vice President was selected was that he was the loser of the presidential election. I guess that was another one of the checks and balances the founding fathers put in the Constitution. It might not be a bad thing to revive today.

Thank you very much. I wasn't aware of that thread when I posted. I'll look it up.

And, to repeat myself, I am not sure that a woman president needs to have different qualities than a male president does, i.e. a solid education, a good brain, sound political savvy, an honest group of advisors and an unshakeable grip on the proverb: "vox populi, vox dei": the voice of the people is the voice of God, something a lot of politicians lose sight of.

Not really as an effort to derail the thread but to introduce a new twist that my daughter brought up over the weekend. Since we're discussing the Presidency and one minority, perhaps we should consider the fact that we have yet to elect our first African-American President. I know this is somewhat off-topic, but it is true that 99% of our Presidents have been WASPs (with the possible exception of JFK, who was Catholic). Are there any strong feelings on this subject?