Jeaniam

The church that I was involved with as a child taught that the Lake of Fire burned and tormented sinners forever, and anyone that was out of fellowship at the time of their death ended up there (scary thought for a child). To the best of my recollection, TWI taught that hell (gehenna) was something similar to the village garbage dump, and just burned until the refuse was disposed of and then went out. I believe that they also taught that it was something that Satan brought on himself. I heard one off-shoot taught that the Lake of Fire burned forever but was not for torment, as the fires of God were intended for purification rather than torture. I think there are Bible verses that can be interpreted to back up all three positions, but lean towards the one that TWI taught.

I would tend to agree with that.

I still believe in six denials of Peter (as much time as I spend thinking about it, which isn't much) as well as four crucified. I guess I think it's important to demonstrate the inherent accuracy of the Bible (Word), but in the general scheme of things it doesn't affect me much, and I wouldn't find it earthshaking if it wasn't true.

I still do it to speak the wonderful works of God, etc. I still find that speaking in tongues brings many of the benefits that the Bible promises (love, joy, peace, etc.). I enjoyed reading the article wrds brought up and Dan quoted. He seems to agree with something I hypothesized long ago; that the purpose of being born again and receiving holy spirit is to allow a believer to be more fully himself than he could be without it (what Wright refers to as being fully human). Are his books freely available on the Internet or in bookstores?

Yes, to sleep in the sense of not being awake or alert either physically or mentally. It still seems clear just in the verses you have quoted that in most cases that the word 'sleep' is being used firuratively; either as a metaphor for lack of mental alertness or death. Death is the state of not being alive.

It seems clear to me that some of the verses you quoted are talking about physical death (sleep): 1 Cor. 11:30, 1 Cor. 15:51, 1 Th. 4:14, and 1 Th. 5:10; and others are talking about sleep in the sense of not being vigilant: Rom. 13:11, 1 Th. 4:14, and 1 Th. 5:7. No doubt there are other references as well.

Great video. Thanks for sharing

I would never have guessed you were retired from reading your posts on other threads. I think some things are important enough to matter to God (JCING, TDANAN, etc.) About some things, I guess I would quote Mr. Spock; 'a difference that MAKES no difference IS no difference', or else write it off to the 'manifold wisdom of God'. I guess I'm not sure that the possible difference I cited is earthshaking enough to spend oodles of time on. I think it can be read either way without detracting too much from God's word. I was mildly curious, that's all.

The first post was John, this one is me. John rarely posts under my name, I forget to check who's signed in fairly frequently. I agree that there were warning signs late in our involvement with TWI that seemed to suggest that leaving might have been a wise idea. We were having a discussion recently on the subject of whether it's wise to dwell too much on the devil. It seemed that TWI began to do that in the later days. It seems to me that if we focus on doing God's will we will defeat the purposes of the devil in the natural course of things; whereas it seems to me that if we focus on defeating the devil, it is something of an unhealthy mindset, as then we are using the devil for our primary center of reference instead of God.

That's an interesting point, another spot. It seems there are two ways to read verse 3, and neither one is necessarily inaccurate. 1). 'And every man that hath this hope in him (in his heart) purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure'. 2). 'And every man that hath this hope in him (in Christ) purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure'. Does anyone have an opinion (or am I just being nitpicky)?

My daughter thought #4 should have said 'garbage', it doesn't matter, however; both are true.

John, I know that you did not address me but I am going to take the liberty of answering for my friend. (I am fairly certain that she will not mind) She has a lot to say and a lot to be thankful for. It was necessary for her to share the contents of her post on this thread, in this manner so that she could say in all humility this final statement and know that others will understand where it is coming from: QUOTE(ChattyKathy @ Aug 10 2007, 09:07 PM) I am blessed by so many of you that I can't begin to say and some don't even know it which I regret I have allowed to be. Humbly, Kathy If you do not really understand the heart and love behind the statement it only means that you do not know Kathy very well. But no she did not mean to be posting on any other thread but this one. I apologize if this sounds harsh or callous or anything else negetive this would not reflect my intent. BTW Kathy- Great post! I love you too!! Actually, the first post was me, not John. I noticed it when I was halfway through but decided it was harmless enough to let it stand without correction. I apologize for the confusion. I do understand the heart and love behind the post you quoted, but I am still somewhat confused by the post I quoted. It still seems to be more aimed at the 'things I learned from PFAL' thread then this one (notice the reference to Suda's summations, etc.). I also did not intend anything harsh or callous.

It seems to me that we can learn from our mistakes of the past without dwelling on them to an unhealthy extent. After all, we can't change the mistakes of yesterday, nor can we change the mistakes of tomorrow; all that is directly under our control is today, and specifically now, this minute. I made a serious mistake with my son two days ago that hurt his heart. I walked into an argument halfway through and jumped to the erroneous conclusion that he was at fault. I cannot change what happened, but I can, and should, learn from it, while moving on.

That's a valid point. I've listened to several teachings (sermons) recently on the manifold wisdom of God. The word 'manifold' reminds me a little of the term 'many folded', which seems to me to suggest that there can be many meanings in a verse of scripture, and all of them are valid. Just a thought... Hey, I remembered this time!!!

You make a valid point. I was thinking of people who post who are so angry and bitter that their posts come across as extremely emotional to the point of fixating on the negatives in the organization and ignoring all the good that was there. I agree with what Jonny Lingo just said.

There are those who remember the early years of TWI with pleasure and value what they learned, who sustained hurts in TWI2, that they need to be healed from. Why should it not be an appropriate forum for them, just because they have a more balanced approach to TWI; i.e. that PFAL was a good class that taught many about God (who never lets man down even if people do)? They can balance the more emotional approach of those who seek only to vilify VPW and everything he did. I think that's a good purpose to serve, as well as exposing the hypocrisy of those who do the same things they accuse others of. BTW, what are 'scritpures'?

I think the exodus began in the middle to late 1980's, so some of the off-shoots could have been around close to 20 years.

I'm aware of some off-shoots in IL (not IN) associated with Chris Geer, but don't know about a family camp. Most areas with CG are pretty independent, so I wouldn't necessarily know; we live in the St. Louis area. Checking the offshoots thread sounds like a good idea. Also many of the off-shoots have independent websites. God Bless.

Yes, indeed in ten years many things could have changed.

Oops, double post

While I can't shed a tremendous amount of light, you're welcome to the little I know. John and I went to a family camp in upstate NY in 1996. It was run by Vince Finnegan and John McCabe (I hope in this context it's okay to use their whole names). We had a very good time (not really relevant), but since then I have heard that things have been going downhill. I might be able to PM you addresses and phone numbers if you would like, and if you give me some time to look them up. BTW, the Y2K scare was a lot more widespread than Rosie and Co. Second likeaneagle

Well, EVERY church is to some degree spiritually decayed, in that no church is spiritually perfect. I wondered how long it would be before we got back to stirring the pot, but I'm a little surprised to find you here, doojable. Breathe, in and out, slowly, in and out... BTW, thanks to those of you who are trying to continue the list.

Well, I think I'll start with Larry, who has become a good friend in a short time; Chatty Kathy, another spot, and Word Wolf, whom I shared a doctrinal thread with; Eyesopen, who tolerates my childish behavior when I master a new feature of greasespot; T-Bone, whose posts are often food for thought. There are too many others to mention who have been a great pleasure and privilege to interact with.

We're in the St. Louis area, not too far away. I think we went through Cleveland on vacation last year. We'll see.

I like you for your mind too. I recently got caught up with a thread that you've been active on. Maybe you and my husband can get together for a round of golf sometimes. He usually is too busy to play.