Jeaniam

It's a shame that some of the other posters don't share your sentiment. Doojable Actually it was Johniam, not Jonny Lingo, who stated there where things in BG's class that were deliberately left out of PFAL. I asked if he would care to elaborate but never saw these differences addressed. Might now be as good a time as any to do so? Waysider, I know that it was Johniam who made that statement. I was just obviating should that argument arise again. He seems silent on that matter though... He's at work. I assume he'll respond when he has time.

I KNEW there was a reason I liked you (besides your avatar)

Yes in a black and white world, but in an imperfect world inhabited by imperfect people with a lot of grey in them, we do our best to live by faith, but unfortunately never totally rid ouselves of fear. Abi, I'm not sure I can see you as a hobbit; maybe an elf, hmmm...

I was quoting excathedra's post #685 on the previous page. My post was addressed to excathedra and to Dot Matrix, and I don't understand how you managed to insert yourself into the middle of it, but since you have, let's take a quick look at the fruit in your life; wrath, bitterness, strife, rejoicing in unrighteousness, grudge-holding, slander. 'Mad at you', not at all. Once again, I have yet to break a sweat in this conversation or any other on Greasespot. I think what's happening is that YOU'RE angry and projecting that emotion onto me; but just because you're emotional doesn't necessarily mean I am. As I have said before, I think this needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis, and I have neither the wisdom or the time to take that burden on myself. By all means, let's not let scripture interfere with what YOU want to believe of that man.

We knew the word, we didn`t HAVE to act as a christian. It was ok to destroy and consume one another like ravening wolves.... If people would only realize how true is the last part of this quote. Some people obtained a LITTLE bit of knowledge and then acted like God gave them the right to be total bastards. Yes, but what is not being acknowledged is that many posters on this thread are consuming each other like ravening wolves, and they do not all belong to the camp that saw some good in TWI, and PFAL.

No, possibly not, but when you make statements along the lines of 'How could he be a Christian or born again, and do those things'; or 'Anyone who does things like that must be going to hell'; etc., etc., you have gone beyond the point of being a witness. And, Dot, it is not possible for me to camp on his doorstep, and proclaim his alleged misdeeds to the heavens, and warn others away from taking part in his ministry. He's dead. And as far as your question about whether Jesus would want us to continue to follow VPW after we became aware of his alleged misdeeds, possibly not, but let me point out that I, at least didn't do that. By the time I became aware of VPW's alleged misdeeds, I had long ended my participation in TWI, and I maintain that there is a big difference between continuing to believe that much of what I learned in PFAL about the Bible was true and continuing to follow VPW. Possibly, my statement was somewhat judgmental, but I, at least, have not called anyone on this thread 'f**king a**holes' or other creative uses of four-lettered insults.

I agree. There are posters who say that no-one who commits certain actions can honestly claim to be a Christian, but they fail to take an honest look at their own lives, and ask themselves how they can call their own behavior Christian. Thanks for your response, T-Bone. Food for thought. BTW, I'm in for the group hug.

My position is more complicated than that. I tend to agree that the issue needs to be judged on a case by case basis, and since I have neither the wisdom nor the time to embark on a project of that size and complexity I prefer to leave it up to God (the only wise and righteous judge). I don't think of myself as following VPW (especially since he is dead) but I do believe that he taught much of the truth of the Bible, and I am very thankful for it because of the background I came from. Many of you claim to have come from a background in which you were taught many of the principles of the Bible before you took PFAL, but there were others of us who were not as fortunate. I agree with White Dove, Oldiesman, etc. that some of you are not acting solely as witnesses, but also as judges and juries.

Yes, but a realistic picture takes in all the details both good and bad. I was not in an area where such things took place. In the areas where I was the doctrine was; 'Gentlemen, keep it in your pants; ladies, keep your pants on', and it was strictly adhered to, and no, I don't believe that it was merely a smoke screen to conceal what was really going on behind the scenes. Yes, John and I were exposed to some of the negative aspects of TWI that arose in its later life, but speaking ONLY for John and myself, we decided that the good of the doctrine we were taught ouweighed the pain we experienced. Now please understand that I am speaking for John and myself, and ONLY for John and myself. I want the picture that is portrayed to include the good also, and not to smear the good god-loving men in TWI who would probably not rape a woman at the point of a gun.

Possibly yes, but I prefer the prosperity that God gives to the riches gained by deceit and trickery. And BTW, I want to read and post on your thread, so I hope you're no longer wounded.

Thank you, Larry. Now let's give it a try. What do you know, it worked. Sorry, all, I'm being childish. .

I think of it in terms of convincing a trinitarian that Jesus Christ is not God or the dead are not alive. Both of these truths were very comforting to me when I learned them, but I can see the devastation if someone is not ready to hear them. I once heard a story of a (non TWI) clergyman who was horrified with the doctrine of the dead are not alive because as he said, 'You're taking away people's comfort'. Now to me it is more comforting to know the truth, but to someone who thinks they know the truth and then to find out that their comfort is based on a lie could be extremely devastating. Now as you say that could be the best thing for them, but if you are going to do something that undermines someone's faith even temporarily, you had better be right.

How about out of gratitude for all that we have been given and all that we have been forgiven for? The temptation to keep on sinning has been dealt with in Romans 6:1&2 'Shall we sin the more that grace may abound. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' There are many places in the Bible that indicate that we have NOT been given a free ride with no accountability to God. However, it is very comforting to know that we have been given incorruptible seed, and God cannot disown us, rather than the type of Christianity that I grew up with, wherein if you happened to be out of fellowship with a very arbitrary and cranky God at the time of your death, you were headed for hell and any obedience up to that point counted for nothing. Doojable, I'm glad your upbringing taught you most of what we taught in PFAL, and all that PFAL did for you was reinforce what you already knew. Some of us were not that fortunate, however; and much of what I was taught in PFAL was like a great light in a very dark place.

Btw, how do you add color to your posts? I'm not sure the questions and answers are clear in my post.

Glad to hear it. Good luck and God bless.

Thank you, T-bone. 'Competent to Counsel' is the only book by Jay Adams I have read. If there are more I would appreciate the titles of them, since I also enjoy his writings. Abigail, thank you for your response. I hope I didn't spoil your morning. I agree with most of your points wholeheartedly. I know we were taught in TWI that we had the answers for everything, but it seems to me that when we are confronted with a situation like the one Mr. Hammeroni was that we would be wise to admit that there are some situations where we just don't know why they happened. And, yes, I agree that there are times when it is possible to get really angry at God without condemning oneself. Moses did, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that there were others also.

During my recent stay in Washington D.C., I had the privilege of spending some time in the Jefferson Memorial, and reading some of his writings that are engraved on the walls. It seems that Jefferson deplored the continuing practice of slavery, and foresaw the coming conflict that it would eventually cause many years before the actual Civil War. I have a vague notion that he arranged for the liberation of his slaves on the occasion of his death, but I could be mistaken.

I don't think God cares very much about red drapes, but this particular person NEEDED an apartment, NEEDED drapes in the living room, and WANTED those drapes to be red, and so God, who does care about this particular person, arranged for there to be red drapes in the living room. I agree with Jonny that I have seen many times in my life when I have prayed for things in great detail and in every case God has given me what I asked for and usually more beside.

I am reminded of a passage in the book 'Competent to Counsel' wherein a gentleman is sitting on a tack. A Freudian therepist comes along, and comments, 'You have a pain in your anal region. This must be because of your relationship with your mother. Tell me all about your childhood'. The gentleman does but feels no relief. Other counselors come by and offer other advice based on which school of psychiatry they studied, but the person still experiences no relief. Finally a neuthetic counselor surveys the situation and says: 'You're sitting on a tack. Get up, and let's discuss ways you can avoid sitting on a tack in the future.' I mention this passage because you could say that the neuthetic counselor confessed a negative, but the negative he confessed was actually at the root of the gentleman's problem and needed to be dealt with before he could obtain relief. How many times aren't we sitting on a spiritual tack that needs to be removed in order for us to obtain spiritual relief.

I am interested, thank you for your post. I agrre with your first point. The cruelty manifested by at least some in TWI was horrendous. We have three children who have learning disabilities to one degree or another and our last TC and BC took the attitude that their problems were directly due to my failures as a believer and recommended to John that he should divorce me and seek sole custody of the children if he wanted to have any hope for them at all. It was somewhat of a relief to have a doctor soon afterward who sent us to a genetics counselor who discovered a rare genetics problem (rare for the general population but for myself and John meant our chances of having a child with certain conditions was 50%). I am not sure that leaving out the blame of the individual means that Satan is more powerful than God, but rather that since Satan is referred to as the god of this world, he has the ability to make someone sick, even though God's will is for you to be healthy. Thanks for your post, Larry. Good points. I spent much of my youth being terrified of a God who made people sick and eventually killed them. It was a great relief to learn the truth through TWI.

I (and, I think some of the other posters) don't regard prayer to an all-loving Father to be in the same category as the superstitions you mentioned.

I find this topic interesting because this morning I was having a conversation with a believer (non TWI) who is having some health issues, and during this conversation I pointed out to her that God doesn't want her to be sick. She is of the opinion that God's plan includes her illness and He must have a purpose for it. I forbore getting into a long discussion with her on the subject of the adversary and who makes you sick, etc. I guess it seems to me that giving some people information that they're not ready for doesn't 'minister grace unto the hearer', and could actually be harmful.

Abigail, and Evan, I tend to agree with the points you made. You differentiate between what you call guilt (sin consciousness), which I think the Bible calls 'godly sorrow', which allows us to repent and change where we need to; and condemnation which is not a good thing.

It has been my assumption (although I am not sure I can back it up Biblically) that God does the transforming while the individual believer renews his mind to the Word. The word 'renewing' is the Greek word 'anakainosis'- a 'making new again'. It is only used twice in the NT, and is always translated renewing. 'Sin consciousness' is being conscious of or dwelling on one's sins, I think; and I think it would have to be one's own sins, not other people's, which would fall into the category of hypocrisy; since most of us are not exempt from committing the same sins. I am not sure if the term 'sin consciousness' is used in the Bible, and right now I am too tired to do an exhaustive word study. Just some thoughts.