T-Bone

Well then, he didn’t recognize my vote that indicated I was not “blessed”

So you’re saying wierwille's own corps program concealed the “purity” of wierwille’s own PFAL Class. Did wierwille do that intentionally? What would you say if I told you the PFAL class never blessed me - not even long ago when I first took it? i am curious - I was in the ministry for 12 years - and I don’t believe we’ve ever met - so how do you know what impact the PFAL class had on my life?

what passages of scripture support the idea that in God’s court wierwille is not guilty of plagiarism? You said - “In God's Higher Court - NOT guilty Until you rise up and see it from a greater height you will always be stuck.” Now I do recall a number of passages in OT and NT that prohibit telling lies and stealing - so I’m curious as to what reference or references you are thinking of that are higher in authority (as far as Christians are concerned) than that of the Bible?

Not so much a trigger phrase - but this has to do with a triggering event - that activates a certain mindset: I’ve heard believers talk of how god blessed them by something they’ve found - a watch by a walk-path or an air-conditioning unit that fell off the back of a delivery truck - I’m not kidding - these folks were bragging about their good fortune - instead of turning it in to lost-and-found or contacting the delivery company...oblivious to the misfortune of others.

Can you list the specific things that I have not given a fair chance to think through? What are these known events that you refer to? I’m sorry but the power of your explanation eludes me - could you clarify what details should have enough force to convince me? I fail to understand how it’s NOT plagiarism if wierwille credited his sources as receiving revelation directly rather than wierwille coming up with it himself. How does that give one license to violate copyright laws?

...and just so I’m clear on your response- when you said God told VPW, "Go use that revelation of mine that I gave to Kenyon." and I asked if that is documented somewhere - from your response I gather that technically there is no documentation of wierwille actually saying those exact words or anything that is close to that - but rather your statement reflects something you have inferred from a perusal of select works as you developed your model. Do I have that right?

Is that documented somewhere?

Grace - your post is very much right on topic !!! I've seen the ads for "The Post" and definitely want to catch that movie!!!!

Penworks and DWBH, great posts regarding wierwille’s so-called research and the wealth of info posted at Grease Spot that exposes the biased and misleading info put forth by some…I think that when even one small insignificant question or doubt is given enough air to breathe it can be like a flame to ignite an important quest. In ’86 it only took a few doubts and questions for me to begin checking out commentaries and systematic theologies by non-TWI authors. This is while I was still in TWI – and I wasn’t even making a conscious effort to shoot holes in TWI-doctrine. I discovered a trove of commentaries / theological studies at an estate sale just down the block from our home -it was the home of a pastor …all books just 50 cents each !!!! After skimming through the books I had purchased that day - I went back the next day - many were reduced to a quarter - so I bought more... …It blew my mind to see one author question the viewpoint or interpretation of a verse by some other author and give their reasons for differing…I mean - - this was revolutionary to a mind that never questioned anything that wierwille taught. I was just trying to figure out what went wrong. But the more I read the works of others and could tell they didn’t have some ax to grind, and was so fascinated on how easy it was to track their line of reasoning – the more my mind came up with even more questions and doubts about TWI – it was like adding fuel to the fire. And the bigger the fire grew the more I could see through the darkness of TWI’s propaganda. And like I said – intellectually I was still trapped in the TWI-mindset - - but by this time maybe there was also some sense of there being a box – and I was stuck inside it…a mental prison…the only image I can think of right now that best describes the intensity of investigation I had back then is the velociraptor testing the cage in Jurassic Park – you know eventually it’s going to find a way out.

I guess when you get tired of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic….you could always start selling souvenirs…what the he11 does that even mean? I dunno… just thought it sounded funny. ...anyway - good commentary Skyrider and WordWolf

I should have seen that one coming !

hmmmm...how about a scratch-and-sniff feature - this way folks have the option to do some olfactory research if they want to...you just “download” the app and then sWIPE to the left to get a whiff .

Point taken Skyrider…sorry if I sounded like I was speaking on behalf of a majority…was really just thinking of my own whacked-out priorities back then. To be honest, I had so much awe and respect for wierwille in my TWI days (or daze) it was like that misplaced loyalty trumped even the most powerful bonds of emotion, marriage, familial or social. It’s a wonder my wife didn’t leave me for being such a ministry workaholic… maybe it was just me having a problem with too abstract a concept as keeping a vow to God…I mean…being raised in Roman Catholic church you get spoiled having a Jesus on a crucifix that gives you something to focus on…i think I'm the type of person who follows the leader more than being self-motivated about a cause...I dunno sometime I ought to dig out my notes from watching “VP and Me” while in residence - - I remember one of the things that resonated with me was when LCM described god working in him - - it was first something like him hearing wierwille say what he needed to do – as if that was the predecessor to hearing god’s still small voice…goofy the way I thought back then…

thanks WordWolf - that’s so funny.... say - do they have a leadership training program - and if so - how much?

That's some very good points, So_crates ! Your post reminded me of all the boot camp tactics during my residency in the corps program...almost like being a prisoner shackled to the icon of wierwille “the man of god for this day and time and hour” .... ...and that makes me think of that old saying - “a chain is only as strong as its weakest link”... knowing what I know now while reflecting on my time in the corps program - - there’s so many obvious weak links in the life and work of wierwille that a person would have to keep their eyes squeezed so tightly shut not to see how puny and dilapidated those shackles were.

Rocky, that’s funny ! ....imagine a TWI “motivational speaker” modeling a slogan along those lines: “make snake oil great again” ...MSOGA

A funny thing about snake oil…though it may be something of questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit there is a whole other treacherous aspect to consider. What if the manufacturer had deliberately put some harmful or insidious ingredients in it? Maybe in the short-term use – no big deal…but what about if you used the snake oil for years? Kind of ironic, that I was a salesman for all the products that The Way International had to offer – not realizing the deleterious effects it all had on my own life (i.e. my mind, emotions, decision-making skills, social skills, critical thinking skills, etc.) .…a fascinating thing to think about while you watch this video – if soda commercials were honest. (on a side note: being from New York where we call soda "soda" I had to explain to a grocer in Texas that I was looking for coca cola and not baking ingredients when I asked what aisle soda was on ). Merry Christmas to all !

Hey Mike, Don’t bother looking at my drivel…I’m so sorry for giving you such grief all the time…I have some issues obviously – I guess I don’t know when to throttle it back… and by nature I’m an a$$hole anyway…not making excuses – just giving you reasons.... I’ll work on being a nicer person – I promise. Merry Christmas and happy new year!

Yes - and maybe he’s carrying it over to the burn pile (I Corinthians 3:11-15)

Thanks for your response Taxidev and I’m glad you’ll be around awhile and will be sharing on what’s happening in both groups...I value everyone’s input here - it helps me see the bigger picture.

Mike, have you ever thought about looking at how other authors interpret the scriptures? There’s one book in particular that I’m fond of it’s Introduction to Biblical Interpretation by Klein, Blomberg, and Hubbard Jr. if you follow that Amazon link you’ll note there’s now a newer edition than the one I have... but anyway I prefer using an interpretive process like the one shown in this book (but I'm flexible and consider many valid methods) rather than something that is subjective (like one’s attitude, as you suggested wierwille taught) since the authors describe hermeneutics which is the science of Biblical interpretation; the authors also survey the literary, cultural, social, and historical issues that impact the text and evaluate the different approaches to Bible interpretation, and they even get into what I think is extremely important because it’s something that relates to what you said - the role of the interpreter and identifying what we bring to the text that could distort the message... I believe everyone has some bias on different things - - but an important consideration is whether or not one is aware of that...and I'll be upfront with you in that regard; I do not trust anything that wierwille said. It's a bias I adopted after I realized I was conned by him. However, when it comes to analyzing anything he said - I suspend that bias and focus not on wierwille but on the content of what he said. Is that such a hard thing to understand? I tell you what – it’s a very easy thing to do – once you separate the myth from the reality – look past your bias - then it’s easy to assess the facts; honestly, I think you spend too much time trying to shore up some fond memories of wierwille or maybe you’re just afraid to admit you’ve invested all you’ve got on a flimflam man...I mean, why else would you avoid reading Mrs wierwille's book for some 20 years? afraid your image of wierwille would not jibe with her perspective on the man? Her own husband - in her own words! ...Well, Mike before life is over, think long and hard about this - it's never too late to cut your losses and move on. when analyzing the content of what he said - I will often discover a serious flaw in the logic he used or incompetency in the way he handles a subject - this really becomes evident if you review one of wierwille's sources that he heavily plagiarized and made a part of PFAL - Bullinger's How to Enjoy The Bible. You might want to mull that over as you ponder the last few sentences of this post. I think the concern over validating any of the wierwille’s works is pointless when you consider his plagiaristic tendencies and self-promotion. If there’s anything of merit once you sift through his mangled cobbling together of other folks’ ideas and works then , by golly, you have merely found the window dressing of a con man. It was part of the web of deceit to entangle folks around his ego- trip. It was a grand misrepresentation – he actually claimed God spoke to him and would teach him “the word”. He led people to believe the only way to see the greatness of “the word” was through him. He discouraged critical thinking in any who followed him. Once a person gets out of the TWI-frame-of-mind they realize the predominant theme in all of wierwille’s works is actually just the greatness of wierwille’s works. There's really a subtext that runs along the lines of you won't find this stuff out there in the churches...no one is concerned about the accuracy and integrity of the word like I am...where else are you going to find someone who can put the word together like a hand fits in a glove....we've all heard him say things like that throughout his "career".... whether followers realized it or not - wierwille set himself up as the gatekeeper for truth...the middle man - - so in effect folks assumed God, as the inspiration behind scripture - would provide wierwille with the inside scoop on the Bible - which in turn was funneled through him to you...followers assumed God would guide wierwille to rightly divide the word and he would then teach it to everyone.......How belittling that is of God…how that trivializes the scriptures…how that disparages the wonderfully intricate brain that he created with its profound capacity for insight, emotion, logic, analysis, language, creativity etc. I think it’s disappointing you put so much stock in wierwille’s spiel on “man’s interferences through miscopying and mistranslation and wrong dividing” rather than in the facts of the matter. I think wierwille’s rigmarole over that was a clever way to entice students and followers to join him in the pursuit of that ever elusive thing of "getting back to original God-breathed Word” with wierwille leading the way, of course. I mean really now – what qualified him to be a teacher or interpreter of the Bible? Are you familiar with the fact that he lied about taking courses through the Moody Bible College correspondence program? I would also suggest another book for your reading list The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable by FF Bruce Bruce presents compelling historical evidence to defend the trustworthiness of the New Testament manuscripts. Mike, I think you need to get a better yardstick rather than measuring everything by the standard of PFAL…I don’t care if you want to look into some other scholarly works than the ones I mentioned – and believe me there’s a lot of great stuff out there – by great stuff I mean books on hermeneutics that follow a scientific discipline which is honestly handling the facts in a consistent and systematic way as well as just being competent in the grammar of the biblical languages… Now be honest, Mike - do you still believe the Bible interprets itself? wierwille made such a big deal over that in PFAL - "the Bible is of no private interpretation" remember? Truthfully now - do you still believe the Bible interprets itself? What verse or verses in the Bible support that premise? love and peace T-Bone

Welcome to Grease Spot, Taxidev hope you stick around awhile to check out the wealth of information here. You bring up the mechanisms of TWI - and I was wondering why you seem to ignore questioning or analyzing “the word” that is taught by TWI and R&R. Are you familiar with the lack of qualifications and gross plagiarism of TWI’s “teachers” all the way back to wierwille? You mentioned hypocrisy with Grease Spot over donations...I am curious as to what basis the followers of R&R group receive money and distributes it as they see fit. What is the biblical basis ? Are they transparent in where the money goes? Is there overhead or salaries that it all goes to? Another thing about hypocrisy- setting aside the intellectual and academic deficiencies of way-doctrine...I believe the moral shortcomings (hypocrisy) of TWI’s top leadership is an even bigger issue. The general public of Way followers don’t see the double-standard in play, but as one who has gone through the way corps leadership training program I can attest to how top leadership inculcates a hypocritical attitude in the leaders-in-training. I know it’s a lot to throw at you. But stick around...mull things over...think outside the box.

Mike, what’s so difficult about discussing just one of the factual errors in link provided by Waysider? And how about everyone staying on point while we’re at it.

Yeah but vpw was a little Goofy and he ran a mickey mouse operation

I think this has been discussed on several other threads before However….whether we discuss here or start a new thread – I think it is necessary that there is criteria that we ALL agree upon – such as but not limited to the following: What is the definition of a God-breathed document? How can one prove if a document is God-breathed? What are the qualities of a document that is God-breathed?