allan w.

Hehe..why don't we just leave gs to you WW ??!! You seem to want to answer for everybody else and I don't know if you haven't slept last night or what but I think thAT WOULD BE ONE OF THE 'LAMEST' POSTS YOU'VE DONE IN AWHILE ! You're attacking the messenger again... T.V. evangelists viewers don't really count as far as impacting etc.. Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland centres here in Australia are no more than a little industrial shed stuck out the back of somewhere. Maybe they've got bigger centres in Africa, India etc..??Oh yeah, and a p.o. box to receive the donations ! You and others are 'hooked' on this 'stealing' thing. If VP and twi had never given any credit to these other men, I might agree with you. The cold hard fact is credit was given where credit was due.

Yo Mo, JWs' are even bigger than the mormons, catholic church are, hell even the muslims, so with all due respect numbers are no guarentee of 'truth' ay. Jo smiths 'revelationary' volumes have more 'holes' in them than 20 year old undies left in a closet full of moths. Dave, the scientific and physics discoveries you gave as analogies also often get 'added' onto and 'built upon' by others. I think the previous posts documenting that VP and twi acknowledged Stiles, Bullinger, Leonards' works really is the reply you may be looking for.

Dave...I've just fired up the bbq for dinner...and you should be in bed...look at the time !!

Post your answers down in doctrinal if you like Mo, I thought it was a simple question, no need to 'dodge it'. In answer to YOUR question Mo...no, why would God repeat this wonderful revelation over and over again to differn't people. Maybe God knew in His 'foreknowledge' that VP would be the one to 'stick his neck on the line' and run with it. Does Leonard, Bullinger still have their classes going ? I know this revelation is still 'moving' through various 'splinter groups' and is only going to get bigger I'm excited I tell ya !! "New Times New Light"

David... the numbers of twi'ers at the height of VPs' ministry would have included MANY from previous denominations, just having gs posters as a synopsis of these former twi'ers gives some insight. Catholics, mormons, baptists, you name it, all knocked on the door of twi instituition at some point. At the height of it, twi (maybe) had more than Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer etc..put together. Thats some impact. As for VP 'stealing' the works of other men ?? As someone said before, how can one 'steal' the Bible ?? No more than one can accuse Joseph Smith of stealing the works of the freemasons, spiritualist churches etc..ay Mo.!

You got yer answers from me Mo, stop whining... Now answer one of my questions...do you think Joseph Smith was any more spiritual than VP ??!! Take off your mormon tinted glasses for a minute ! What VP taught was/is way more believable than (your man of God) IMO Belle...you must have skipped my question...why did you jump ship from your 'heavily involved' southern baptist church ?? What made twi more appealing ??

I think I've stated before Mo...your 'stance' on these things is really of little interest to me.You are a mormon who follows the 'Joseph Smith version' of the snow on the gas pumps. And 'no' to all of your questions above ! BUT...I am a follower of a GREAT deal of what VP taught.

Exactly...and thank God VP expanded it further !!

Hey Belle...for someone who was 'heavily involved' helping a bunch of people from southern baptist revival meetings, something made you 'jump ship' ??!! Something 'impacted' young miss Belle. Your post in itself lends credence to the fact VP WAS having some sort of 'impact' on mainstream Christianity !!

'THE WORD' is movin' again...Hallelujah

No I don't excuse his acts WW, I thought I made that pretty clear, neither do I use them as an excuse to allow myself to become a 'tiddlywinks' Christian.

Time magazine article here Sep 6th 1971

And you do bring up a very good point WTH...How many churches held classes, revivals, seminars etcc...and left the 'new' Christians to then go home and 'flounder' with their good news ?? Just that alone left many more disappointed, hurt, confused, bitter Christians than Vp ever did I'm sure ! There was rarely any follow up etc...the 'need' for follow up is more of a recent realisation amongst the Christian circles. And no WW, I don't think I have ever defended what he did to other people, but I do defend the Word that he produced. As far as impacting mainstream Christianity, I would say getting into Time Magazine might almost qualify, wouldn't you ??

Maybe the point really is Belle and Wordwolf and Dave that 'some of us' don't really care too much how, why, where, when 'it' came together, but are 'very blessed' that it did. As someone said before, literally tens of thousands got to hear this 'angle' on the word and that very likely would not have happened under Leonards ministry. Leonards, Bullingers, Stiles etc...MAY have stayed as 'just another theological alternative' to mainstream Christianity. VP at the height of his ministry was by all accounts really impacting mainstream Christianity. I believe that this part was 'of God'...what happened after was VP and others fault. To sum it all up and hopefully not being too crude, "it's a bit like examining the vagina and the actual sex act to determine 'how' the baby happened, instead of focusing on the baby" !! I think I need my coffee !!

Must have been 'mere coincidence' that what VP took from everywhere else WAS/IS scintillatingly close to the purportedly 'original God breathed Word' ??!! IMO (of course) !!

What I (originally) meant in 'putting it all together' was Vp taking the 'good' stuff out of Leonards class, taking the 'dead are not alive' from somewhere else (or was that in Leonards class as well)?, Jesus Christ is not God (I doubt that was taken from Leonards, Stiles or bullinger), etc..etc..

HEAR HEAR...WELL SAID.

Apology accepted TBone ! David..yeah I know VP took money for the classes and abs and all, but you know what...when myself and Selina (and I can only speak for us and those we personally know), when we first visited h.q. and saw it's beauty and then the auditorium and everything else...it helped 'cement' the Word even further in our hearts. I've seen churches and campuses that are run on a shoe string and others where people didn't give a damn about the presentation and then having met some of the people involved, I could see why... Wayne Clapp did a recent teaching on "Consider your ways", really homed in on that kinda stuff. The ministry Selina and myself are involved with is looking around right now for some type of campus to purchase. It won't be as 'grand' as any twi campus, but we sure will do our best to present it as an honourable offering before the Lord.

That's great Oaks...I'm just waitin' for TBone to 'turn up' and clarify his/her remarks insinuating that perhaps I am not 'upfront', am a 'liar' and have 'hidden agendas'. Could it be TBone that what really 'frustrates' you is that there are/ were some of us that found the pfal class to be somewhat beneficial and are prepared to 'say so' ??

Just pulling this back to top and I'm going to wait for TBone to comment whether he was implying moi as being dishonest with a hidden agenda...I sure as heck hope not, seeing as I'm one of the few who has their actual name as their handle.

Just wondering what you're 'implying' there TBone...someone posting as 'someone else' and not being 'upfront' ?? Is it me frustrating you ?? BTW..Acts 19:9 looks like a 2 year class to me, where the disciples graduated and then went out as ambassadors...!!

Yeah look, sorry everyone, silly me...I'll try to to remember to keep things 'negative' about VP and his classes...my apologies if I've caused anyone unnecessary palpitations !!

So...have any of you got any other 'course' or 'class' or 'programme' or 'seminar' or 'sermon' that delivers that kind of info or understanding in that kind of time frame within the 'Christian community' ?? No offence but if some tend to think that a Greasespot type of forum is a legit way of learning, I don't think many of us would have gotten past , oh, lets say,... Genesis 1:1. V.P. is still the man that put it all together, made sense of it, and got it heading somewhere..delivered MANY MANY people...so you weren't one of them ?? Too bad, that still leaves about 50,000 others ?? that did benefit from the class.

8:30 p.m. Downunda' and approx. 25o c ( 75 fahrenheit ) ? heading into Summer !! Quite a few bushfires on at the moment too.

I KNEW IT, you old 'King of Tyre' you !!