allan w.

THATS why Clay and Todd are 'soulmates' ( to use their own description of their relationship ). And that is what I find so OFFENSIVE, that they 'espouse' a spiritually deep self awareness and wish it on others, yet when affronted, are as nasty as a bee up a butt. Something aint right in the town of Bend !!

Well...the new h.q. intl. leadership training co-ordinator has I.R.A connections (supposedly), so anything like that happening in todays twi atmosphere wouldn't surprise me !!

Thanks for your opinion.

'heightened parental instinct' ?? Me, ? I just give credit where credit is due !

Absolutely there was bondage in twi and definitely still is, but that to me does not nullify any truths behind a lot of the Word taught. And I believe twi leadership 'used that' as a 'lever' to enslave and mistreat people. If one thinks of the most liberal-minded church that may be around today and asks the same question, the answer would be the same. It is the Word taught that either stands or falls on it's own merits(as far as the truth and accuracy is concerned.) People come and go, instituitions rise and fall etc...

I suppose that's a fair assumption of me ! To be honest I myself couldn't/wouldn't be bothered about the 'soup to nuts' methodology of the manifestations either. I thought when LCM went on about the order of the manifestations as laid out in 1 Corinthians, "interpretation of tongues being mentioned last because" etc... I I thought what a bunch of egotistical crap, they're laid out that way because something had to be last !! But what I will say is this, that I do believe 'working the Word' IS ONE of the 'keys', 'ways' (whatever one wants to call it) to making one more 'perceptive' to the voice of God. Oaks, this is one of a number of 'things' that happened to me and Selina and (others we know) that demonstrated the hand of God in a manifested way. If it was only a 'one-off' thing, I would put it down to 'lucky' or whatever, I'm not an idiot (although some would disagree) ! But I still believe in the power of God, not just in an ethereal, mysignostic (is that a word ? it just popped into my head) kind of a way, but in a real way that can change and alter our lives and circumstances at any given moment (in a positive way).

I believe that the 'manifestations' are available to every b/a Believer as they (will) to believe to receive and operate them. Why ? Forget about whether VP got it right or wrong, or Stiles or even Joseph Smith for a moment... IF I were to receive 'word of knowledge' (for example), something I needed to know. Do I then have to wait around for someone else to give me a 'word of wisdom' concerning what to do about it ? What if no-one else was around ? God is going to make me wait til someone else with that (gift) turns up ? How absurd ! Think about it. I'll give you an actual example (something I usually can't be bothered doing, but here goes) When our youngest daughter Leah (some of you GS'ers may remember her in F20) was about 18 months old, Selina and I were at a beach doing a bit of witnessing, enjoying an ice-cream etc... Selina was sitting about 40 feet away feeding Leah pieces of apple. I had my back turned looking at the water, sitting on the sea wall. As clear as day, God said to me " I will teach you the Word like...just kidding ! God said to me "look at Leahs mouth" (word of knowledge). I looked and it was like God 'zoom lensed' her mouth to me. In her mouth was a wasp on a piece of apple. " God then said "Don't yell out any thing, just run (word of wisdom). I ran over, scooped my finger in her mouth and pulled the apple and the wasp out. So no matter how much you want to argue and strain at gnats, to me, the manifestations (all nine) are available. To me, the Word of God makes absolute sense, fits like a hand in a glove etc..and I'm sure as hell thankful a man 'plagerised' works to make it known.

Hey Oaks..God is in the business of FIREING a**holes. Theres going to be a big 'fry-up' at the end !!

Firstly...no, I don't think it matters that VP trumpeted other peoples workings of the Word. I doubt I ever would of heard if it had been left to the Stiles or Bullingerites or any of the others. VP took it, re-worked some of it and then 'ran' with it. Took a gamble on it and it 'paid off'. Secondly...I think there's a differn'ce between 'saving the world' and going and doing the things that Jesus said to do, albeit, a small differn'ce (depending on the individuals view ) Thirdly...peoples mistreatment by twi will be a very pale excuse before the Goodman of the House (imo) for not continuing on the journey (way) they WERE called to. (mvho of course) !

Oh God...Clay wants you as an apprentice within the anamcara project ! ( I don't recall Abi saying she needed (help) Clay ? Sorry, my mistake...BRAMBLE...(ditto to what I said anyway)

Hi Abi...if that blesses you (and it sounds like it really does !) then I'm sure Gods' blessed for you too ! I may be wrong, but I heard Bob Dylan was with Vineyard church for awhile (but got kicked out for marihooanah possession !) I think his church feelings are expressed in a few of his songs. 'Jokerman' is one that comes to mind, 'Everything is broken' is another.

1 Corinthians 14:5 " I would that ye ALL spoke in tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prohesieth than he that speaketh in tongues, EXCEPT he INTERPRET, that the church may receive edifying" v13 " Wherefore let him that speaks in tongues pray that he may INTERPRET". v28 " But if there be no INTERPRETER, let him keep silence in the church, let him speak to himself and to God." Seems to me these verses still apply to the church today that keeps having new people coming along. There are still people getting born- again today in the churches isn't there ??!!

Galatians 5: 1-4 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith CHRIST has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall PROFIT you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumsised, that he is a DEBTOR TO DO THE WHOLE LAW. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are FALLEN FROM GRACE. " Whilst Chas may understand why you have embraced laws and traditions, I don't ! I don't believe that twi can be blamed for someone reducing forgiveness of sins to 'throwing bread to ducks' etc.. etc.. Whether it was twi or some other Christian outfit that someone belonged to, IF they were enlightened in the meaning of the grace that comes by way of JESUS CHRIST then to me they are without excuse. 5-14. Chas is right, I do come across as 'sledgehammerish' at times and I hope you believe I bear no ill-will toward you in what I have posted Abi, but I believe these verses sum up what can happen. Maybe twi leadership and others will bear judgement for the trouble they have caused. Bless you.

Of course, you can get onto his site and read it all you want !!

Well, I guess if people want to keep the 'sabbath day' holy, continue blood sacrifices, stone unruly children, give wave offerings, send goats off into the wilderness carrying their sins, etc.. that's up to them. I tend to believe these were the doctrines 'aforetime' witten for our 'learning, teaching, doctrine' to 'appreciate' the differn'ce between THEN and NOW (in other words, we are to 'teach' (didaskalia, Romans 12: 7) the differn'ce between the old and the new, the law and the grace, the judgement and the mercy, the greater and the lesser.)

That reminded me...when Selina and I partook in our first pfal class, they had a girl up the front sitting down flipping over cards when a little bell sounded ! It sure was a 'giggle' watching her nod off to sleep whilst holding the cards !!

sure there was...

Hey...aren't you guys still meant to be in bed asleep on that side of the world !! And then that made me think how Jesus said when he returned, some would be asleep in bed and others in the field working.?? Talk about a Global Impact !!

With the coming of the greater, the lesser disappears. The writer unfortunately is unaware of 'simple' principles like this that helps to 'rightly divide' the word. All scripture written aforetime is written for our learning etc..etc.. The sacrifice of bulls and goats was superseded etc.. etc..etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...

Good on ya Galen, bless you ! Our foundational class we rehashed and condensed down to 7 segments, each one about 2 hours long, that seems to be long enough for some ! I've taught it live and it's on video and dvd format. I guess I've 'plagierised', that which was 'plagierised' !!

I believe that one of the number of things Paul counted 'as dung' was the application and relevancy of the O.T. once the fulness of what happened on Pentecost hit him. If even by the mere fact that he never went back to the laws and the fables that he had grown up with. New times, new light. And yes, Jesus did say NO man COMETH to the Father but by way of him. To me, that means that there is NO OTHER SUBSTITUTE for Jesus to gain access to GOD (in this day and time)

and does that make it counterfeit...because of her limited tongues ? I believe those who do speak in tongues fluently, beautifully, far, far outweigh them who 'feign it'. Same with interpretaion of tongues. We who have no problem believing it and doing it KNOW when we 'feign' bits of it and we KNOW when we just let it pour forth spiritually.

And yet Abi, what did Paul say of all his religious learning and training ? He counted IT AS DUNG, so that he could 'win' Christ. The word 'win' is to gain (completely for oneself).

I am 'blown away' by the lengths people will go to, to try to disprove s.i.t. is real. Even a previous poster who said she believed it was not genuine, but still did it !! Hard hearted to the 'things of the spirit' (imo).

I too have my doubts as to which people actually heard what whilst (supposedly) in twi. It seems the 'newer' people to join GSC either 'don't know', have 'forgotten', or are 'confused' as to what was actually taught there. Hmmmm.......