oldiesman

Eagle, thanks for the tip, I gotta read the Epistles more, especially Ephesians, gotta put on that whole armour of God. :)-->

Cowgirl, I believe that promise from God wholeheartedly.Please correct me if I'm wrong, I think what your position is is that since God requires confession before forgiveness, then you are requiring the same from those who trespass against you. Confession first, otherwise you will not forgive them. I just don't see it that way. I'm not God I'm a human being, prone to sinning and making mistakes myself, just like any other human. We are in a spiritual battle, we sin, others sin and blow it. Sometimes folks who sin against us don't see it. Sometimes they don't realize what they did, what they are doing, or even if they're wrong at all. They don't realize what hurt they've caused. They could be blind, deceived, cold, calloused, whatever. And what I'm suggesting is, you can forgive them whether they see it or not. And Research Geeks point is, that helps YOU, whether they see it or not. It's so strange that some folks use bible verses as a pretext for not forgiving others, when its so powerfully evident that God wants us to forgive others. Shaz, these ignorant condescending statements sometimes are just too much, assuming that I never got hurt myself, but I'm going to share with the folks here something that hurt me deeply years ago. I think I may have told the folks this story but I was dismissed from the Sixth Corps on March 7, 1976. March 7 was a Sunday and I asked Craig, who dismissed me that morning, if I could stay for the evening service. Admittedly I was dismissed for something that was my own fault...but, I did apologize for it, and stated it wouldn't happen again. I stayed for the nite service, then after the service he called everyone into the Ermal Owens Sunshine Room and forthwith dismissed the entire Sixth Corps. He then said anyone who wanted to recommit themselves to the Corps Program may do so by "signing the little 3 x 5 card we are handing out." At the end of the meeting, I ran up to Craig, and asked him if I may stay after all, under these circumstances? He thought it over for a few seconds, then said no, "my previous decision stands with you." Didn't matter what just occurred, didn't matter if I was very sorry and apologized, I got booted anyway.A few days later, I'm home with my mom and Dr. Wierwille calls. He convinces my mother to use the remaining money she and Dad previously paid for my corps training that year, to allocate the rest of it to a family member, who was entering the 7th Corps. She approved, so now my corps sponsorship vanished. I asked to speak to VPW and begged and pleaded with him over the phone to take me back. I apologized and said it would never happen again. His response: "no, we've gone as far as we're going to go with you." To hell with oldiesman, he's tossed in the gutter. I was devastated, heartbroken. My mother wanted me to see a shrink. My whole life and dream shattered, at 20 years old. I stayed stationery and almost motionless in my room for 3 months. Thinking about it now greatly saddens me. Never received an apology from Craig or VP for their lack of caring, hypocrisy, cold heartedness, and now that I think about it, especially now since we know of Craig's and VP's sinning themselves. But you know what, I forgave them. I will say that it took me a good 2 years to get healed from it. Asking God to help me, focusing on God's gifts in my life and how much HE's forgiven me of my sins helped me forgive others. It just works, that's all I can say. Yeah I wasn't physically raped -- but mentally, emotionally? Soul Death. Yep. But the bottom line is, forgiveness still works like a healing balm under extraordinarily trying circumstances, and one may forgive without a tad of repentence or confession from the offending party. I can't imagine holding that pain inside of me for 25 years. I am depressed now that I've dredged this up in my mind, I have to renew it. :)-->

Cowgirl, oh what a nice trick question. First, God doesn't require us to receive revelation first, before we can forgive. God doesn't require us to have to receive repentence first, before we can forgive someone. Now if I were witnessing a rape, I wouldn't walk away and forgive right then. I'd do my best to stop it. Laws even allow me to kill, to stop it, and I'd be perfectly justified. So no, I wouldn't just walk away. But that's different and a far far cry than me hearing about a rape that happened 30 years ago. I believe under those conditions, God wants me to not harbor anger, wrath, and malice, but to be forbearing, tenderhearted, and forgive. Not only is it the godly thing to do, but helps the healing process as Research Geek suggested and helps me be totally free from it and be able to move on. I believe forgiveness helps folks to move on with their lives, among other things. If you wait for a person to repent before you can forgive them, you may never get to forgive them cause the repentence may never come. And in the case of a dead person, it will never come in your lifetime. So then that gives you the justification to never forgive? Nah. We are not bound by the actions of another, before we ourselves can take godly actions.

Here's another biblical account of forgiveness of sin without a requirement of confession or repentence first: Mar 2:2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive [them], no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. Mar 2:3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken [it] up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. Mar 2:12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

Goey, off the top of my head, there's a few scriptures that back up the idea of forgiveness without repentence being required first. Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. God didn't require our repentence first, before willing to ask Christ to die. Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved By grace we are saved, God's gift, even when we were dead in sins. Not by good works. Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. In the very same chapter you say repentence is a requirement, Jesus forgave those who were killing him, without them repenting first. Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Stephen was filled with the spirit. He asked God not to charge those who were killing him with murder. He forgave them without them repenting first. Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye. Here, the standard for forgiveness is not wait till a person repents first before you can be forbearing and forgive, but you forbear and forgive because even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. It begins with Christ forgiving you (even when you were dead in sins), leaving you free to forgive others. I'm sure there are additional examples.

Hey there's a new one, eat the crab meat but toss out the shell. Thanks, Socks.

Happy Weekend, one and all!

:)-->

Cool, where do you get all that kewl stuff?

Check out my post on the second page. That pretty much spells out where I stand on this issue, at present.

I'm getting hungry. :)-->

So then we're justified not forgiving religious leaders because Jesus didn't? That seems a tad too simplified for my taste. First, the way I see it, Jesus is Lord, da Big Cheese. He gets to tell us what to do, cause he's Lord, and cause it's best for us, whether he does it himself or not is not the point. Maybe there's a bigger reason why he never forgave some and forgave others and it seems to contradict; I don't understand it all yet, but I do know what he asks me to do and it's pretty clear.

Satori, I forgive you for falsely accusing me of laying blame elsewhere. :)-->

As a recipient of False Accusations, I forgive Rascal and all for using false accusations against me, even though she and others haven't repented, nor even admitted to using them. :)-->

Garth, this principle applies to everyone. I didn't mention anything about applying this to "only Wierwille" did I?

Best I can come up with right now is, if they're worthy of scorn and condemnation, that's God's judgment and vengence; but if I follow Ephesians Chapter 4, there's no option there for me to keep scorning and condemning. I am asked not to keep that mindset but the precedent there is to forgive and be merciful. Also says to get rid of your wrath, before the sun goes down ...This way seems to be more profitable and godly than having a mindset of scorn and condemnation. Look at what Jesus said when they were killing him. Father forgive them ... wow what an example.

Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. -------------------------- It's just the way VPW said it, when he said it's easy to forgive someone else when you bear in mind what God forgave YOU for. There seems to be a lot more biblical precedent to forgive, than the other way around, since we are all sinners and God forgave us and who are we to have a continuous critical mindset? That's my take on it. ...

Research Geek, I'm with you 100% on this. Jesus also said that a person's sins will not be forgiven, unless they forgive others' sins. Only problem is, here at Greasespot, forgiveness is viewed by some very aggressive posters as whitewashing, and mitigating twi damages.I'm with you though, if it means anything. :)-->

I do believe The Curse has already been lifted, and tonite will be the final manifestation of it. Boston is going to win it all tonite. On the other hand, I've been told I'm carnal, so who am I to say?

Ok Rascal, I'll admit to being intolerant of some viewpoints. Rascal, are you up for a challenge? From this point forward, let's both try to be tolerant of each others views, and not ridicule. Are you game?

Rascal, twi is still there, CES, CFF, other offshoots; that seems to be lots of folks who are around still eating sh_t. As pointed out earlier by someone, I think it was Johniam, you're doing exactly what TWI used to do and maybe still does... tendency to condemn others for their beliefs thinking that YOURS has to be the best and others are way off. Why not live and let live? twi believers and offshoots and others are believers just like you; trying to live the best they can. ...

The Curse must be lifted and now everything is going Boston's way ....all those years are being made up for. That's what I believe ...

I'm a lifelong yankee fan and AM rooting for Boston. It makes the defeat more palatable to think that this "was Boston's year." If Boston doesn't win, it's humiliating for the Yanks, the ultimate humiliation losing 4 in a row to a losing team... Looks like Boston is going to win and the Curse is lifted ... good for them ...

Hello folks! Did ya miss me? My employers love me Danny. :)--> dmiller: dmiller, the Brownie Principle doesn't apply to what we are discussing. Let's say the truth represents all the "goodies" in your mix, those good ingredients, and the doggie doo represents VPW sins, or VPW errors, or both.So you're saying that the goodies are inextricably tangled in with the baddies? Says who? Why can't we bake a cake with the goodies only? (This is what JAL means when he says to eat the fish and spit out the bones) duh? Besides, my reading of I Cor. 5, talks about present tense removal of the bad leaven so that we may have a new lump. This appears to be speaking to Christians to remove the bad seed among them, so that there may be a new lump. 1Cr 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 1Cr 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed, 1Cr 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1Cr 5:6 Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth. 1Cr 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 1Cr 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1Cr 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. Lemme repeat this one: 1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth. So I guess it's possible to still keep the feast and purge out the doggoe doo? Let's keep the feast, but without the doggie doo. That's what the Leaven Principle means to me. I think some of you folks are misapplying this idea, cause your just too hung up on the sins of Wierwille and the bot that you can't get past that and therefore justify throwing out everything, even truth. Go ahead, if that's what you want ... But ya can't blame CES, CFF, or anyone else, for wanting to keep the goodies. Let's make that cake dmiller ... mmmmmmmmmmmm :)-->