oldiesman

yes, exactly... well not quite exactly but essentially the belief is the more active one is in way programs and things, the more rewards earned.

Refiner Another key belief not yet mentioned is that of salvation by grace. being converted=saved=born again Once you're born again, or saved, or converted (via Romans 10:9) you are heaven bound and no power from hell can stop you from going. You have eternal life and will be in God's kingdom with Jesus Christ forever.

Now there's someone more committed than I!Care for another corps pee story? I was seated in the library in September of 1975 during the first month of 6th corps training, and we were taking the PFAL class (already had taken it 10 times, so what). All at once, nature called. Right in the middle of a session with Wierwille teaching and no other sounds, in front of everyone, I got up and walked down the stairs to go to the bathroom. As I reach the bottom of the stairs, I hear footsteps frantically rushing down the stairs. I thought, oh god. Looking back, I saw Bo Reahard, the class instructor. He said, "don't allow the adversary to talk you out of hearing the Word." I said "yes, but I have to go to the bathroom." He said "ok".

I didn't leave TWI, they left me.

ckeer, your views are very reasonable and interesting, worthy of much consideration. I also think your statement is applicable to this thread and gives a decent perspective to the topic discussed. Thanks for sharing.

ckeer I see where you're coming from and can agree with you. From your observation, you said they "became" false prophets, and from their actions, their gift ministries became false. They are born again Christians, but because of their continued secretive evil actions, their gift ministries became false. I see this is possible. But I still have difficulty with verse 9: This says they will be punished. How? Can't mean eternal punishment, since they are born again, can it? What's your opinion ckeer?

I find it very hard to believe that that's TWI's current policy. I'm not doubting your experience, but is it possible that you had a prejudiced person somewhere in the mix? Did you happen to take this to a higher level? I would have. It just doesn't make sense if they want new recruits. How are people going to believe, if they can't hear about it but are interested in what TWI is teaching about Jesus and Christianity?

Did you ever hear of or witness an instance where someone was turned away because they were black or Jewish? Homosexuals were turned away in the 1990's, as we all know. Was anyone ever turned away from going wow or corps or any other program, because they were black or Jewish? If you invited a black or Jew even now, would they be turned away?

Tom I remember that. Weren't they from the American Bible Society or something like that? I think they had every book from Matthew to Revelation, and Acts was titled "the Way". I might still have them hanging around...And let's not forget that Panasonic cassette recorder called "Way", way back when ...

Tom We're getting into motive again. I don't know that he "deliberately" taught error to deliberately deceive. That's motive. Does the Roman Catholic Church deliberately teach that Mary is the Mediatrix because they deliberately want to deceive people and turn them away from Jesus alone as the Mediator? I take VP's erroneous teachings as what they are: error. I don't read any more into it, for I don't want to harbor a suspicious and accusative mind set that could be wrong.

Juan What substantive denial? I don't equate twi's teaching about and adherence to the church epistles as denying the Master. No way, shape or form does that viewpoint deny Jesus, for the epistles exalt and honor Jesus repeatedly.

Oenophile Quite the contrary, I am all for folks sharing their experiences and airing their stories. Please do. But there's more than that going on here, principally the excessive victim mentality propaganda laced with perpetual hatred of Victor Paul and the BOT. That's a lot more than just airing stories. No matter, Greasespot is a good place to be and I'm not a twi operative, haven't been involved with them for over 10 years. By the way, I can't derail a thread alone. "Don't Feed The Monster". If folks don't want derailments, don't respond to my posts. Thanks.

Juan I think Wierwille put it best when he said believing "Jesus Christ is not God" doesn't demote Jesus Christ, but rather, elevates God to his exalted supreme position. "He alone is God". Doesn't disparage Jesus in any way, shape or form.

Rascal How do you know I never met him? I first met him in 1973 at the end of my first PFAL class at a camp in NY. Spent some time with him a year later, at a CFS camp. Spent some time with him again in 1978, at an advanced class. Spent an entire month with him in 1984, on a motorcycle trip across the country and back. MO I also think his teaching on tithing in CSBP was false, but I don't label someone a false teacher based on some false teachings, what I do is weigh everything, true and false teachings. I think his teachings were more true than false. As I recall, he said in 1976 that the commies would take over if we didn't get the word over the usa. Don't know and wouldn't surmise anything else about it, but calling someone a false prophet based on that one example is weak. I never said everything he taught was true...

Hi Mo, I can't help interpret the relentless condemnation of Wierwille by some as anything but hatred of the man. Come on let's face it, some folks hate his guts. He's the evil monster, worse than Frankenstein or Adolph. Yeah, and most of those folks are the ones who never post. Good point, and I'd say that's right if Wierwille were still alive, doing evil. But Wierwille's dead. He doesn't continue to do wrong and doesn't refuse to admit wrong and doesn't continue to hurt others, because he's dead. If he was still alive, I'd understand and your point is well taken.

Nothing Oakspear. Just trying to inject a little humor. I forgot to wink. ;)-->

OK, so what are you complaining about then, huh?

Here's Another Set

TO ALL WIERWILLE HATERS: Grizzy is correct. Please begin your threads on evenings (after 5:00 pm.) and weekends so that you may enjoy unabated and uninterrupted Wierwille condemnation. Thanks.

You're both assuming that a person's evil works, or sins, defines them as a false prophet and that's the end of the story. That's your belief, your opinion. how does anyone know Wierwille's good works were motivated by evil? are you the Amazing Kreskin?

Tom, and when one takes all the evidence, both good and evil into consideration, what may one conclude?

The very first verse kills your thesis. You're saying Dr. was a false prophet and teacher? No way. He taught folks the exact biblical teaching on how to come to God thru Christ, our lord and saviour, and other biblical goodies. And when did Wierwille ever deny Jesus Christ? Again, I would suggest that when all you focus on, all you deem that has any meaning, is a person's evil deeds, you come to irrational and biased conclusions.

Hi Pat, I dug up all the Way Mags. from December 1972 which was my earliest all thru the end of 1974. Also looked in some from 1975 and 1976. Not there. Judging from Raf's quote, it sounds like something that would have been said well before 1973. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Question: as part of the lawsuit, can't you get TWI to produce all of the pre-1976 Way Magazines?

Evan, let's not forget that Dr. Wierwille learned from men of God scattered across the continent. That means his teachings should be understood in that light. There's still lots of goodies in PFAL and other Wierwille books, despite his inappropriate conduct.

Yes Pat that helps a little. I'll see if I can dig up what you're looking for.