oldiesman

I'd still like to hear what their take on it is, just so folks can know definitively. I think partial birth abortion borders on infanticide, so it might be worthwhile. Perhaps an innie could send them the article and ask what their take is on the paragraph about partial birth? I'll be happy to email the article to anyone in PDF format if anyone wants it.

mj412, thanks for your support, and your words of wisdom! Raf said: Ha! I found the quote. It didn't come straight from TWI, but a TWI believer who started his own magazine.In 1984/85 there was a magazine called "Free Spirit -- New Light For American Culture" -- (ISSN 0740 2333) published quarterly by season by Free Spirit Publishers, David C. Craley, publisher and editor. As I recall, this was a magazine that contained articles about different topics, all applying God's Word to cultural issues. Articles on business, health, education, art, photography, music, literature...etc.., all with the word-in-culture theme. So I can't say it came from TWI and was wrong there. On the other side of the coin, David Craley was an established TWI believer in that time period, and judging from all the articles in that magazine, all written by established TWI believers such as Elena Whiteside, Cathy Crawley, Carolyn M. Rawlins, M.D., Alison Freeland, Sue Pierce, Ted Ferrell, Grace Bliss, Sue Pierce, Dennis McGee, Ellie Wilson, etc.., and judging from twi's much desired one-mind mindset, one may assume that this editorial could have been TWI's teaching on the subject or at least written with their blessing. But I guess it's ultimately up to the reader to decide for themselves. I think Craley's editorial is sound and reasonable, and gives a slightly different viewpoint than rascal's portrayal of the satan-serving murder-promoting spittle-spewing bad-breath-in-your-face fire-breathing twi bully, forcing you to get an abortion or else mandate. Quoted below is the editorial, with the paragraph I spoke about previously in bold: David C. CraleyFree Spirit -- New Light For American Culture Winter 1984 [Added below: Much gratitude to Jeff Stanley, San Antonio, TX, and to Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille's "By The Way" columns published in the St. Mary's (OH) Evening Leader for significant contributions to this editorial.]

Steve, I don't think you're paying much attention. My response was to rascal, who's the one who sidetracked my comment on twi's supposed (yet to be proven) partial birth belief. The real issue here is what exactly did TWI teach on the subject, ... not alleged corps coercion experiences, which is a sidetrack. What does me having or not having empathy, or being emotionally disabled or not, have to do with this thread's topic?You accuse me of sidetracking, then go and do thou likewise ... Qu'elle simpleton. ...

Ok, I'll try. You still had a choice, no matter what one said or thought was best.Here's my schpeal again: (1) Adults are responsible for their actions. (2) Those who freely availed themselves to enter programs like wow and corps, freely submitted their will to others. One *had* to follow the program (which means following other people) to remain in it, and if that meant leaving the program to have a baby, if that's what one wanted, that's what one did. Others acted differently, according to their own choices. (3) Adults who found those programs repugnant or unacceptable, were free to leave those programs at any time.

Well I will say this, ultimately it was the woman's decision what to do. Did they sign the consent forms with Uzi's pointed at their temples? For those who think all abortion is murder, no matter what trimester, it really doesn't matter, twi's position will *always* be ungodly to them. But I thought a point should be made that twi's position wasn't that cut and dry and they were seeing the difference between 1-2 trimester and 3rd trimster. I'll try to find that article if I can ...

Yes, it was a big deal, in that situation. He had the gumption, the proverbial Intestinal Fortitude, to make an issue out of it. To be a pain in the butt, for a godly reason. He could have just ignored it and went his merry way, as so many apparently did.

If I happened to run into someone who thought twi was off the wall, I asked them to come see for themselves whether it was off the wall or not. Have them decide for themselves, rather than take someone else's word for it. The couple of folks I knew who were in that category never checked it out for themselves, seemed like they had their minds already made up, so after that, I had little respect for them, even contempt, for speaking about something they thought they knew so much about, without any experiences. It's one thing to speak from experience; that I can try to respect and understand. But it's entirely another to speak from gossip alone. And yeah, in those days lots of folks thought we were a cult all because of JCING.

Agreed. But that's not the whole take on what they said, from what I read. They said the pregnancy should be continued to term if the fetus is old enough to breath on its own, or words to that effect. Kinda strange nobody here remembers this but me...but I know I'm not imagining it, I read it and it was significant enough to remember.I'll try to find the exact quote and where it came from ...

Here's some 'o Craig's sayings:

Raf Your question is a good one and for someone who really wants to know what twi teaches on this, it should be clarified. I thought the teaching was in one of the "By the Way" articles, but I see now it's not. I do remember a teaching (in written form) where they wrote that if the fetus can live outside the mother's womb (on its own) then it's breathing and therefore a living soul. Since that can happen in the third trimester, that would knock out partial birth.Perhaps we can hear from someone presently in twi to verify or not verify. I'd like to know myself. What I saw was written perhaps over 20 years ago ... who knows, they may have changed that too ...

Just wanted to bring this one back up to the top, in response to the recent decision to block the partial birth abortion ban. It's disgusting, isn't it? U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton's ruling agrees with abortion rights activists that a woman's right to choose is paramount, and that it is therefore "irrelevant" whether a fetus suffers pain, as abortion foes contend. That second part is ridiculous. Can anything be more barbaric than sucking out a baby's brains before they're born? First or second trimester is one thing, but partial birth is so devilish. I agree with TWI's teaching on this, which has been that 1-2 trimester abortion is not murder, but 3rd is a no-no, so I'm glad twi at least had/has the good sense to teach folks to oppose that barbaric procedure.

I thought another possible reason why folks didn't speak up when they should have, knowing full well that adultery is wrong, was the fact that generally, folks don't want to upset the apple cart. It's a difficult thing to go on a crusade to make a point, even if one is absolutely correct. Most folks just live and try to get by, ignoring what they know in their heart is right, but can't bear to make themselves a "pain in the butt". For most, it's human nature to want to take the easy way out, to want to take the path of least resistance. I bet John Schoenheit felt super lousy when he was fired. But now, years later, I bet he feels so sweet and good and proud (in a good way) he took a stand back then, something he'll never forget.

Refiner, Another key TWI belief is remission and forgiveness of sins. Remission of sins (whereby one gets a "totally clean slate") is reserved for unsaved sinners. When the unsaved sinner receives Christ (Romans 10:9), they receive remission of sins. A totally clean slate. Forgiveness of sins is for the saved sinner. When the saved sinner sins, they break fellowship with God, and in order for that fellowship to be restored, the saved sinner must confess the sin to God. At that point, the saved sinner once again is in fellowship with God because of God's promise of forgiveness. Here's how Wierwille writes it, his comments of I John in brackets: "Fellowship is the Secret"Victor Paul Wierwille The New Dynamic Church pp. 78-79 It should also be noted that the above belief necessitaties the additional belief that there are no "degrees" of sin when it comes to confession and getting back in fellowship with God. Whether it's murder, adultery, stealing, lying, or another sin, the promise of forgiveness is there when one confesses the sin.

Goey It is difficult for me to believe, because it was kept so quiet. Had some of these folks been so "convinced" as one might say, it probably would have been more verbalized, more taught, more established. The fact that these elite kept it quiet, tells me something. Logically, they didn't want this information to get out, because they knew something was wrong with it.

Refiner, Another huge TWI belief that I now think is error, has been tithing for prosperity. According to Victor Paul Wierwille in his book "Christians Should Be Prosperous", Christian believers are limiting God's prosperity when we fail to tithe. When Christians fail to tithe, according to Wierwille, they become "afflicted, oppressed, diseased and defeated." When we tithe, we "open the way for God's financial and material prosperity to flow to us." Tithing as defined by Wierwille is: "God's Basic Law of Prosperity" "God's Law of Supply" "The Law of Systematic Giving" "God's Absolute Minimum Law of Financial Liberty, Prosperity and Abundance" "Our Minimum Financial Insurance, Health and Accident Insurance" "The Proportionate Giving Principle" "The Law of the Renewed Mind Financially"

Refiner I've also wondered about this as well. But assuming the millenial kingdom and paradise thereafter will be perfect justice and peace, I don't see how any of that will matter much. I would think all of us would be satisfied just to be there.

From what I've heard, there was a group of people in the corps who practiced these things secretly. It had to be secret, for everyone knows that adultery is sin, and if it got out that these rationalizations of adultery were being believed and promoted, the thing would have been exposed for what it was. That's why the Schoenheit paper (and Schoenheit) was shunned. What a mess.

yes, exactly... well not quite exactly but essentially the belief is the more active one is in way programs and things, the more rewards earned.

Refiner Another key belief not yet mentioned is that of salvation by grace. being converted=saved=born again Once you're born again, or saved, or converted (via Romans 10:9) you are heaven bound and no power from hell can stop you from going. You have eternal life and will be in God's kingdom with Jesus Christ forever.

Now there's someone more committed than I!Care for another corps pee story? I was seated in the library in September of 1975 during the first month of 6th corps training, and we were taking the PFAL class (already had taken it 10 times, so what). All at once, nature called. Right in the middle of a session with Wierwille teaching and no other sounds, in front of everyone, I got up and walked down the stairs to go to the bathroom. As I reach the bottom of the stairs, I hear footsteps frantically rushing down the stairs. I thought, oh god. Looking back, I saw Bo Reahard, the class instructor. He said, "don't allow the adversary to talk you out of hearing the Word." I said "yes, but I have to go to the bathroom." He said "ok".

I didn't leave TWI, they left me.

ckeer, your views are very reasonable and interesting, worthy of much consideration. I also think your statement is applicable to this thread and gives a decent perspective to the topic discussed. Thanks for sharing.

ckeer I see where you're coming from and can agree with you. From your observation, you said they "became" false prophets, and from their actions, their gift ministries became false. They are born again Christians, but because of their continued secretive evil actions, their gift ministries became false. I see this is possible. But I still have difficulty with verse 9: This says they will be punished. How? Can't mean eternal punishment, since they are born again, can it? What's your opinion ckeer?

I find it very hard to believe that that's TWI's current policy. I'm not doubting your experience, but is it possible that you had a prejudiced person somewhere in the mix? Did you happen to take this to a higher level? I would have. It just doesn't make sense if they want new recruits. How are people going to believe, if they can't hear about it but are interested in what TWI is teaching about Jesus and Christianity?

Did you ever hear of or witness an instance where someone was turned away because they were black or Jewish? Homosexuals were turned away in the 1990's, as we all know. Was anyone ever turned away from going wow or corps or any other program, because they were black or Jewish? If you invited a black or Jew even now, would they be turned away?