oldiesman

I really don't get that from the Feb. 1987 letter by JAL & gang. For instance, where in that letter does it talk about VPW and LCM committing adultery? All we get are statements like: Ok, so what does that mean? To me, this is mega-vagueness, and nothing more than being Miserable Comforters, just like LCM said.Let's just talk about how the Trustees are blowing it, and let's reprove them with bible concepts from Wierwille; without getting specific.

Have a great weekend, one and all! :)-->

Waterbuffalo, If I am missing the mark, could you then please describe in detail what you mean exactly when you say that Anthem describes what wayworld was/is like. I don't want to misinterpret your meaning or put words in your mouth. :)-->

It sounds to me, generally, that Ayn Rand might be disparaging Christian thought and doctrine in her writings. I'm not saying she definitely is, or that her intent is to do so. I'm just looking at what she's writing, and trying to compare it with Christian thought and doctrine, and it looks to me like she could be disparaging Christianity. And the very fact that she's an atheist, might mean she looks on relinquishment of her own ego to a Higher Being, as being sheer folly. So, in essence, she may look at Christianity, as sheer folly.You seem to feel that relinquishment of your own ego is evil, that that was one of the evils of twi? From what I've seen, relinquishment of your own ego is not evil, in fact its at least a part of Christian thought and doctrine. I supplied some verses, there are many others. :)-->

This is one area were Rosalie differs from VPW. At least Dr. Wierwille and family put all his personal property in twi's name. But not Rosalie. Interesting! :)-->

Waterbuffalo, ahhhh ha ha haaaaaaa, you may ask Mike anything you please, I'm just trying to respond to your statements myself.What I'm saying is, you seem to be having a problem with folks being likeminded, having the same thoughts, goals, ideals, intentions, etc. well what do you think Jesus came to the world for? for us to be united in eating McDonalds hamburgers, eating at Wendy's, or Crispy Creme? Just trying to see where you're coming from. If it is an evil thing to relinquish your own ego, that it's good to be truly "independent", maybe you need to rethink what Christianity means and espouses? Just food for thought. As I said earlier, as a political system, I think Libertarianism is the best. But that political system does conflict with Christianity. Agreed?

Sounds a little like the Body of Christ, if you ask me. :)-->

Ayn RandAnthem Jesus ChristJohn 17:11 Waterbuffalo, and your problem is what, exactly? :)-->

def59, could you please be more specific. what exactly did Raf say? I could be wrong, but I don't have a problem with Jesus making some mistakes. After all, he was a human being. TWI also taught that he got sick. Couple of things that sets Jesus apart from all other men is that (1) he was born of the virgin Mary (the virgin conception) and (2) he always did the will of the Father. In my mind, always doing God's will, always being "in fellowship" with God, doesn't mean you are immune from making some mistakes. But what kind of mistakes did they say he made? some food for thought: what you and I might view as mistaken, might not be a mistake at all, just an action from God's viewpoint. Remember we don't always see things like God does. :)-->

Steve Lortz, I just emailed a PDF file of the document to Pawtucket, asking if he could post it. If you want it as well, send me your email address, through PT. :)-->

Steve Lortz,dmiller was kind enough to send this to me recently. I read through it, and nowhere does it say anything about a call for the trustees to engage their followers in an open discussion. The paper wreeks of spiritual halitosis. Syrupy spiritual self serving gobbledygook. After reading it, I'm glad the Trustees fired their butts. Here's a quote from page 35: The pages immediately preceding this one talk about "mark and avoid." I guess what they did was, marked and avoided the Trustees! Also looks like John Pat and Tom expected to keep their positions, all the while "turning away" from the Trustees! hahahahNo wonder why their butts were fired.

:(--> one of the evil manifestations of Uncle Harry Day ...

Oenophile, I think this topic is an interesting discussion and worth exploring. I do see some of the differences between what Rand is saying, and what Christianity/twi/other religions are espousing. The fact that Rand is an atheist fits right in with it. Hey, I'm not knocking it. I like Libertarian stuff, and as a political system, I think it's the best. All I'm saying is, the idea that we are our own gods, and we are totally free to follow our own egos, so to speak, just doesn't seem to fit with the bible and Christianity. What about the third heavens and earth? have you thought about it at all? what's it going to be like as far as you having free will? in other words, if the Lord asks you to jump, will you be able to politely decline and go to McDonalds for a Big Mac? :)-->

Wow! Anyone want to sell their Sunday Nite Cassettes? CLICK HERE :)-->

Oakspear, In God's Kingdom, he expects us to give, doesn't he? I don't see where we are true free agents, doing what our own egos feel like doing, and that way being acceptable with God. I think Rands views, and Libertarianism in general, desirable as they may be, are not compatible with true Christianity, for Christians are compelled to do good and obey God's Laws, not to feed to the dictates of their own egos. And in the Third Heaven and Earth, will things be any different? You think you'll be free? Free to do what you will? You remember the word slavery is not a bad word in the bible, for good reason. :)-->

Elmer Gantry :)-->

I like Burt Lancaster. :)-->

Rand writes: But the question is, is that the way God wants or desires us to live? Being free from our brothers? Being free from everything else, except our own egos to relish and worship?

To me, Howard Allen's statement only reinforces the idea that the sales were to advance the religion, or ministry coffers, etc. Yes, it's about profit, but for the purpose of moving the religion. On the other hand, if he wrote a book and selling it in the bookstore and all the profit went in his own pocket, that would probably be an example of having a profit motive other than for the advancement of the religion. :)-->

Shelly, don't really know, except maybe back then, I was renewing my mind to biblical concepts, verses, etc. You know, those retemories. Quoting daily those verses of scripture and feeling the need to live up to those. Asking myself, "What would Jesus do in this situation?" I don't ask that question hardly anymore. I should.

Danny, sorry to hear you broke your leg. Geeze that must hurt, get well soon! :)-->

Seems like a fair and reasonable conclusion ... :)-->

I think the reason why twi still uses his stuff is because Donna M. is there, and she's still married to him. There's still a connection there. So I think for respect for Donna, they're still using Craig's teachings.Danteh1 and Uncle H, I think you're off the mark about LCM still running things. He's gone from any decision making. Finished. History. I think you underestimate the power and authority of Rosalie and Donna, and how much real authority they had in the 1990's. That one-two combo knocked him out of the box. Actually, his own evil works knocked him out, but they took over officially when the time was appropos. :)-->

Oakspear, I guess the point I was trying to make was, there's more to fellowship than just the teaching part. There's spending time talking with folks, singing, praying, manifestations: you know the routine. You don't get that from a tape. We were taught that all that is a biblical principle in the new testament: fellowship with the saints. But don't get me wrong, if you have to travel 3 hours to get all that, and you don't like to travel and consider traveling that day to be a hassle, I'd say forget it. Personally, I like to travel and might do it for just one day. Wouldn't do it on a regular basis though. Who would? :)-->

If you can stop for a moment and remember the godly aspects of twi, if not now, then the twi of the past, and focus on that and dispose of the ungodliness, i.e., the sex scandals, the corps cultness, the condemnation of other religions, etc., then you might have what exists now in CES. I don't really know, I'm just surmising, because I've never been to one of their meetings. I suspect that's how it might be. From what I've seen of getting their free newsletters and buying some of their tapes, it seems like they are an improvement. :)-->