oldiesman

It does make sense now, since all you seem to look at and focus on are his sins and works of the flesh, therefore naturally, that's all you're going to think has any significant meaning, from God's perspective, would be his evil works. Therefore you conclude that was the sum total of his life, end of story. Geeze folks, if that's all God looked at and focused on in our lives, our evil works, our sins, our works of the flesh -- and condemned us forever because of it, then I think we are in some deep doo doo. Come to think of it, he did look at all that ... and that's why he sent us a solution to all that ... he's called Jesus Christ. John 3:16I believe John 3:16. :)-->

My belief is that he did both good and evil works. But, as a matter of salvation, there is no equivocation. He was/is born again of God's spirit, because he confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus, and believed in his heart that God hath raised him from the dead.Also, Jesus is the lamb of God, to take away the sins of the world. Jesus suffered and was crucified because of the world's sins, God laying our sins upon Jesus, on the cross, so that you and I and Victor Paul could be saved, a la Romans 10:9. If there are any sins a person commits that Christ didn't bare on the cross, then Christ failed, and Christ's passion is a hoax. Now I know you don't believe that, do you? Take a look at those other sins besides adultery, murders, drunkeness, etc. There's envy, strife, wrath, lust, emulations, hatred etc. So you believe folks who do those aren't saved as well? Not me.We were taught in twi that "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" must mean in the category of rewards and cannot mean no salvation, because then there's a major contradiction in the word of God. I believe that VPW and others were saved, a la Christ's perfect sacrifice, and Roman's 10:9. :)-->

Ok, so it's what I said before, you believe then that they are unsaved because of works of the flesh. Interesting!

Ok, but then what will stop them being saved? Since you believe they aren't, perhaps you could explain why?

Did you say that as well, or am I seeing mirages?

So then they are unsaved because of works of the flesh. Interesting!

More than that... we have a major contradiction of scripture. But I am interested to know what some folks believe. I still believe that VPW and the BOT are saved Christians. Therefore, I'd like to know the rationale why some folks no longer believe that, if they don't.

Rascal, my corps grad family members may have had some pull, I don't know. But if what you say is true, that folks who didn't complete their corps commitments no longer remained within the will of God and in good standing in the household, there's no way I would have been allowed to do what I did, irrespective of my family members. Also, this wasn't about just me, we observed a good amount of folks who left their corps commitment, became "Joe Believer", and were still loved and in the will of God and part of the household. :)-->

Catcup: Please expand on what you stated and how it relates to VPW and the BOT. We learn in the epistles that folks who are born again are heaven bound, saved, having eternal life. Are you suggesting then that VPW and others who are born again may not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, because of their evil works? -or- Are you suggesting that VPW and the BOT, because of their evil works, aren't saved? Please explain.

What you were told was Balderdash. If people were not in good standing in the household, they wouldn't have been allowed to be in docvic's(praise be his name)'s presence for an entire month, every day across the country on a motorcycle trip in 1984, something I did. He knew I got dismissed from the Corps, he knew all about me. Here's another: I hadn't even been GOING TO TWIG FOR 6 MONTHS and took Advanced Class 1978. How about that? He knew that, too. I was no outcast and was very much part of the household, even though never completed my corps commitment and now and again, tripped out.

Come on Rascal, are you saying that if a person didn't fulfill their Corps commitment, they couldn't remain within the will of God and in good standing in the household? Goodness, then how do you explain all the folks who didn't fulfill their Corps commitment, and still remained in good standing in the household, myself included?

I think that was up to the individuals involved. Some thought that having a child at that time was more important than keeping or making Corps commitments. It was all up to the individual. That's why I keep saying:

Well, I say that's God's call, not yours or mine. Also, he may have confessed his sins before God on his deathbed, we just don't know. We don't know that the destruction wouldn't have occurred anyway, and besides, you think VPW warning us to remove LCM and the BOT would have helped? HA. I think that would have been a circus.

I don't know about getting rebuked harshly, but I do think that communicating about individual personal responsibility would be in order. ... Heartless policies? I actually think the policy of allowing the woman to make a choice was in the woman's best interest! Maybe TWI should have hellishly demanded that the women continued their pregnancies and forced them to be parents?

If the Way Corps volunteer considered it as interference with their duty and commitment, they willingly signed the consent form, for what they thought was a greater purpose. Some considered it interference; some didn't. But it was always the individual's decision to make. Unless there were abortions at gunpoint?

Steve, what's with the namecalling? I'm know you're intelligent enough to conduct a conversation without it. :)-->

I'm wondering if Paul's repentence didn't matter to some of those who were grieving with the murders he was responsible for? Perhaps. So then if VPW before his death publicly repented of his wrongdoing, you wouldn't even be here, right Steve? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ahhhhhhhhhhh ha ha HA :)-->

Mindset and intent is key. When I went out wow, and witnessed, I didn't want to get folks into PFAL to take their money. I wanted to get folks in PFAL to win folks to the Lord Jesus Christ; and so they could have a greater knowledge and understanding of the bible, different than what I had from my previous RC upbringing, which didn't help me. Motives were not to steal, kill and destroy. I don't know that they were VPW's motives either. I certainly hope not. It's a tough thing, but life does go on. Similarly, I think the folks in the first century had to deal with Saul's repentance, and teaching the woooooord after he murdered Christians. Perhaps some folks may not have taken to that whole thing very well. I'm thinking of a wife or child of a slain Christian, having to think of Paul now as repented and moving the woooooooord. But God's will is that all men be saved, and come to a knowledge of the truth. Ask yourself what's more important, forever focusing on the past sins of people, or reaching folks with the Good News?

I think all that depends on the mind set and intent of the person making the decision, whether good or evil. Both good and evil were manifest in twi, therefore both good and evil applies. I think God and Jesus, who have perfect understanding, are the ultimate Judges of these matters, matters of the intent of the heart and soul of a man.

As did TWI .... this is a good observation. When I was involved, folks had a choice to stay only at the twig level, go to twig once a week, enjoy it, and live your life. Then there were folks who went further, went out WOW and Corps, presumably because of greater service to Christ. Those issues come back now to bite some because some see that as stealing from our lives, what otherwise would have been better. Don't know, I think each person has to answer that for themselves. But I do think God has honored / will honor our good works in the Lord.

So if twi taught all these goodies in 1978, how can anyone possibly surmise that twi really meant (with all the venom of an evil snake) that Christ is absent from our lives? CES gets one demerit for engaging in sneaky false finger-pointing against twi-1.

Fence: Funny you should mention this, I've sometimes wondered the same thing about other posters as well. Detached from reality? I don't think so. Hey, just because some folks don't think about and speak about evil works of twi continually, doesn't mean they're detached.Regards my wealth, nah, I'm not all that wealthy, but do have some spare time on my hands. Never though, on evenings and weekends! :)-->

I disagree: you've made false accusations, assumptions, and false conclusions... Here's one: "I have no respect for the opinion of one who`s only problem with twi is that it hit him in the pocket book." That is being dishonest. When did I ever make that comment. You're false accusing again. You are a false accuser. Who is the source of these accusations? What attacks have I made on the innocent? You are a false accuser. Who is the source of these railing false accusations? If folks in twi and offshoots think that the trinitarians are engaging in idolatry, I think they're wrong. On the other side of the coin, if trinitarians think that non-trinitarians are not christians, they are equally wrong. You know something, I never heard of VPW accusing trinitarians of not being saved, of not being Christian; but I have heard accusations of the reverse. But as for my own opinion, I don't think trinitarians are bad at all, in fact I just had a very nice conversation with a woman who's part of the Assemblies of God church, she's a very fine woman and she invited me to her church. I only wonder what will happen when I disclose I don't believe in the trinity ...

Garth, I really beg to differ with you. To most ex way folks, I think Wierwille's reputation is mixed. A doer of both good and evil. His organization is still around, and can make a comeback. The offshoots are still around. These groups, to the extent that they teach God's word, are doing a worthwhile service. What are you doing, other than criticizing and complaining and condemning how dead these folks are? What makes you so lively and bright, and someone to be listened to?

Garth: I don't think so Garth. You are engaging in dishonesty and lying when you falsely accuse me of whitewashing. Just because I want to express my opinions about some of the good that Wierwille accomplished, you call it whitewashing. Too bad if you don't like what I experienced and it nauseates you. But I think it's you, and folks like you who, knowing full well, decide to sweep under the rug Wierwille's good works. He was a complex man, certainly a doer of both good and evil works. Focusing on the evil only, and making a conclusion that he was nothing more than a man of the flesh, and that's it, is being dishonest and corrupt. You can't erase his accomplishments as much as you like to do. His legacy is tarnished because of his sins ... but I'm not going to renounce that he taught me the bible. And you can't stand that he taught God's word and folks appreciated it, and still do? The man is dead, and still he's doing more thru his books even today then you're doing, condemning and complaining about his shortcomings and not much else.