potato

ckmkeon, your ignorance would be shameful if you were still a teenager, but understandable because you're under your parents guidance although one would hope you'd question and learn. the fact that you're an "adult" makes your ignorance (and arrogance) more than shameful, it is downright offensive. your knowledge of the "word" according to vpw may have doubled, but I think your heart has grown three sizes too small. I hope you find the rewards of the dark side sufficient, Darth MOG's apprentice, because I think you won't be earning any in heaven with your insane adulation and devilish imitation your master. P.S. I don't remember anyone ragging on your spelling. your insane world view is the only thing I've seen criticized here, and that under duress.

this stuff makes me so sad... no one should ever have been treated like that. I had similar experiences with their hard-heartedness, but thank God I was not faced with the possibility of death. I don't think I would have made it. thank God we are all out.

they no longer search, they now just coast, so it's even worse. there's nothing left there to passionately embrace except a bunch of dumb rules and lame sunday school-style teachings. I was left with the feeling that there was no possibility of being anything but lukewarm if I stayed, because it was obviously not a christian ministry.

there is hope, Polar Bear. write us a freedom song and post it for us to listen to I painted some pictures earlier this year. I felt something come back to life while I was painting. little steps. there's more stirring around in the box of my soul waiting for me to lift the lid so it can escape.

somehow this: while I am personally not into swining s*x clubs many are today followed by this: with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy made me realize how corrupt I am. I laughed quite a bit, but I almost read it as something like: with some holy love swinging your way Roy I love you Roy

does it come back? I remember a time in my life when I could follow conversations and put things together out of the data I'd collected. somehow I lost that skill in twi and at the abusive hands of my ex-husband. I was afraid to think or speak except in the confines of my own mind. I want to be the person I was before the life got sucked out of me. my memory recall isn't even that great anymore, I worked so hard at being able to forget things so that I could survive. I want my mind back.

you would most definitely have been M&A's during the "house cleaning" years for such insolent behavior.

I wasn't bugged about tithing for a while, but as soon as I showed a desire to go wow and take the advanced class, it was laid on thick... that was in 1989. I think it's quite possible people made it to the mid-nineties without getting kicked out for not tithing, those who came and gave in other ways may have been left alone until they gave a hint of wanting to "make a commitment to God in service". also, I bet some lucky few had leaders who actually stood in the gap for them. betting most of those leaders were booted out, like you were, polar bear.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! I just read the thread... now I'll be laughing all day! Darth MOG... priceless!

good to know. I can skip his posts without feeling like I'm not giving a differing opinion merited attention.

but you're far too young to be LCM masquerading as an innocent vpw fan. I conlude that you're being honest about your age and background (based on other threads I just read) and that you sincerely believe your parents and don't feel any need to check things out for yourself. I wouldn't believe my mother regarding anyone's character now, although at 20 I was firmly convinced she was right. it doesn't hurt to question if you they really are right. I learned that lesson far too late.

I'm very curious about this ckmkeon and their history with TWI (or with whatever group it is that uses vpw's teachings). he/she defends vpw (or should I say "the apostle") so adamently. why? what has vpw done to merit such blind adulation? I'm almost left with the eerie feeling that ckmkeon = LCM. now that LCM can't afford a copy editor, this may be his actual writing style. is that you, Craigy-poo? things that make you go hm.

that is indeed sad. I was likewise terrified, until someone revealed to me that they stopped tithing and they were more prosperous than all the years they tried to live up to TWI's rapacious demands for money. I stopped tithing a while back, too. it sure took a lot of unnecessary pressure off, since I was already deep in debt. I'm deeper in debt now, and I'm sure that the good followers of TWI would try to make me and everyone else think my troubles are a result of my failure to pay God his due, but I know different. the root cause of my financial troubles actually lies with bad leadership and bad teaching to begin with and the principle of the snowball effect. I'm simply paying consequences for trying to be a "good believer". eventually I'll be paid up and free.

in pfal, vpw took the example of a sad accident to forever brand people with a giant red A (for apistia) if something bad happens to them. it's the story of the mother with the young son who was hit by a car on the way home from school. the mother wasn't there to pick him up, and she was apparently under much stress in her life and worried about taking care of her son. the boy died, according to the story (which may or may not have ever happened, given vpw's character) and vpw pronounced that it was the mother's fear that killed her son. therefore, (by using this awful circumstance to build upon doctinally) if something bad happens to you or someone you're responsible for, it happened because you have fear. he further taught that fear is the opposite of believing, so that if you don't get what God promised, it's because you're afraid. I have found like so many other's that this is not the case. fear is bad, yes. it causes us to sometimes make good choices, sometimes bad ones, and sometimes it paralyzes us when we should move. it does not prevent God from taking care of us, it just makes his job a little harder (but hey, he's GOD) and the evidence of bad things in our lives doesn't point to fear as the cause. if it was as black and white simple as they teach in TWI, vpw wouldn't have died so young from cancer.

woohoo!!! awesome usage of the word sodomize. I have to thank whoever it was that brought sodomize into common usage, it's such a great word. polar bear! thanks polar bear

belle, rascal, kit... thank you! I didn't leave TWI because I hated it. I left it because certain people within had committed acts so heinous that I cannot forgive them unless they have remorse, which they do not... BECAUSE they're behavior was encouraged, underwritten, dictated, and even celebrated up the WAY TREE. the leaders are not worthy of respect, IMO. some few are there because they love God's people, but I'd say from my experience the higher you go the more rare those individuals are, and that plenty of FCs are just petty dictators. this hierarchy was shaped by vpw and his values became their values, and the fact that the value system was corrupt to begin with made it so much easier for lcm to twist it the way he did. my first twig was pretty sweet IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT THEY CONSTANTLY TRIED TO WEAR ME DOWN TO THE POINT I'D GIVE IN AND GO WOW. my second twig was pretty sweet IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT THEY GOT BEHIND LCM 100% AND DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO MAKE SURE WE ALL PUT OUR HEARTS WHERE THEIRS WERE. then I went wow. after that, for 15 years, I can say I only had one decent FC couple who seemed to care about people. they were brand-spanking new corps grads. if they're still around, I doubt they're still sweet, which makes me sad. the politics of the organization make it impossible to stay sweet AND follow the leader. and waysider, thanks as well, I didn't mean to leave you out but you posted while I was composing this long ramble.

yeah, if they have RC's all over, HQ and a training campus, publications AND run commercials inviting people to come check out the SWEET fellowship, it LOOKS like a worldwide church, and as long as you don't get close, it SMELLS like a church, and therefore is worthy of tax exemption.

oldiesman, that is something TWI asserted, yes. however, I am most assuredly real in every category, as is everyone else I meet (christian or not) and your assertion above is contradictory to the TWI doctrine of the threefold man, which I like better. it at least makes some scriptural sense... so... the body is real. the soul (mind and heart) is real. the spirit (christ in you) is real. your quote traces its roots back to a TWI doctrinal teaching on the levels of body/soul/spirit, that body should be at the bottom of the hierarchy and spirit at the top, which further led to an attitude of elitism and superiority that somehow shines forth from your statements. reading the bible, I've never seen anywhere where God said don't use your mind, that it's not real and you can't trust your experience and ability to think. from what I remember, and I don't have time to crack open my bible right now, the verses that state you should cast down imaginations etc. have to do with a humbe attitude (which self-awareness definitely does not preclude) and those about subjugating the flesh are just common sense instructions (and also don't preclude self-awareness). in order to change habits, you have to actively think and compare and decide to change. if I was mean or lied or made bad decisions before, it takes active thought to change that, not just a denial of self. the real me is the one I'm finding while stripping off the false doctrines of TWI and bringing the different parts they taught me to deny back into balance with one another.

I guess it would cut into the retirement pot to have to pay back corporate taxes on all their ill-begotten gains if they got rid of people. I imagine that it doesn't cost much at this point to run the "ministry" aspect of the business. people actually pay to go get indoctrinated and work as slaves in the corps program, staff are slaves who work long hours for almost nothing, the properties are owned outright, and the fellowships on the field are virtually cost-free. RC's don't make much, and get no benefits, so they certainly generate more income than they use, enough to pay the slaves their allowance. but even without the facade of a ministry, I think they'd figure a way out to sustain the retirement plan. they'd just rather not take the financial hit. all I was really trying to say, though, is that TWI isn't going away because they don't need tithes. they could dwindle down to the point where there are no home fellowships and TWI wouldn't be hurt. numbers just don't matter, all that matters is maintaining the illusion that they're a ministry so they get the corporate compensation package that they are clearly not worth. the stuff I'm rambling about may not be new to others, but it's new to me and I find it all fascinating, yet disgusting and discouraging.

I got to visit with people still "in" (barely) this week who have some good connections, and I've come away with the realization that twi will not ever go away. it's not a ministry. it's a retirement plan for a small, select group of "chosen ones". here's the unsubstantiated (and distilled) information I gathered: the trustee cabinet salary is in the 70k/year range, on which they are, interestingly enough, able to purchase nice cars and homes without debt. TWI does not need ABS. the organization has enough investments that it is self-reliant and can thrive quite well indefinitely without tithes, without meetings, without ministers, without a flock, without classes, without research. ministers, meetings, and members are only to present a pretty veneer of authenticity on the "christian ministry". the services and fellowships are a sham. there is no longer any research nor is research on the field permitted, the only approved teaching topics at fellowships and STS are from VPW's published works, so basically all the present teachings (or is it still "present truth"???) is a regurgitation of plagerized material compiled 30+ years ago.

cop-out is really a loaded term. I remember well all that term represented when used for anyone who'd ever left, no matter if they faded away or left during an explosion. if they could be made an example of to discourage the rest of us from the risk of speaking up, the cop-outs and their pathetic, devilish, destitute lives surely served the purpose of keeping us in check. the longer you considered the words of "the teacher" regarding these copped out people, the harder it was to consider leaving, or questioning, or speaking up.

patrick and sarah, reading your original post I caught a bit of a perception that maybe you are doing what I have been doing the past 2 months. I left twi in september. I was in for 20 years. once I left, I was left with a huge uncertainty about the doctrines twi holds near and dear, especially as they were presented by LCM in the 90s. the beginning doctrines, easy to swallow: jesus christ is not god, the word of god is your only rule of faith and practice. that was fine, plenty of good times. the doctrines became grievous pretty early on for me: you can't have god's protection unless you are tithing a miminum of 10%. if you want to understand spiritual things, you ought to give 15% or more. the suggestion of the man of god is the same as a commandment of god. and one of the best, not out through "official" channels but one that was taught by men at the RC level after a certain BC started stealing ABS to fund an extramarital affair: a sour marriage is the result of the wife withholding sex from her husband. the good times ended pretty quick and were no more, and in no way can offset the harm that was done. so I was left in a state of confusion... was it all wrong? is jesus God? is the bible true? is there a God? I needed to work through all those things I'd taken for granted based on a teaching of twi and determine whether I believe them or whether I now hold no opinion or a different opinion. I have no faith in anything beyond this: God is good.... but I knew that well before twi. twi is no place for me or anyone who thinks. I'm glad you recognize it's no longer for you. it's pretty flat and lifeless these days and I'm relieved and happy I left.

I can say with quite a bit of confidence that if I'd quit before I went WOW I could absolutley look back to beautiful memories and nothing but. once I made that commitment, though, it went steadily downhill. oh, oldiesman, WAY TO GO (har har) on selectively quoting motherof2 out of all meaningful context. (edited to correct faulty recollection)

was this a dogma at one time? I don't remember this one, I'm more familiar with the dogma that a carnal christian is like a dog returning to its vomit, used in particular to invoke judgement by the masses against people who "turned their backs on the ministry" (read, got kicked out or left voluntarily because they disagreed) which would sink them so low that they'd be as corrupt as seed of the serpent, just doing the will of the devil all day long against the ministry.

d'oh! I should learn to read. I'm too easily confused today!!!