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Great point, Tonto. And Tommy, I think it's possible to do that in a moment of time, and then not live it. But that's just me.

Skyrider, To answer your question, YES! Putting VPW's life in the context of his background and the times, to enter the "Ministry," was a very honorable thing to do with one's life, and carried a certain amount of instant credibility and social prestige. Who knows? Maybe VP thought that the seminary could "save him from himself?" Or, like you said, it was a way to be influencial and authoritarian. He could become the "expert" on something through academic study, without too much personal risk involved. I had some personal conversations with VP during my tenure in TWI, that lead me to believe that he had some kind of relationship with Jesus Christ. But his own theology which morphed over the years turned into a great, big, giant, rationalization and justification for behavior not becoming a minister of the Gospel. At the risk of really oversimplifying a complex issue, I think he is a great example of someone who took their "liberty in Christ," to some pretty twisted and perverted ends. PS an after thought: The believers in Corinth also were taking their "liberty," to some pretty perverted ends. So their is a biblical precedent in the NT in my mind.

Rascal, I don't believe that VPW Wierwille "developed these apetites and lusts while proclaiming being christian...". I think they were there all along. Seems to me that the question of whether or not VP was actually saved is one that will never be answered definitively. Maybe that was be a cool doctrinal discussion? Whether or not a Chrisitan can live the way VP did, if he/she wants to? It's pretty obvious that VP didn't live as Christian Minister is expected to. He never should have gone into "the ministry" to start with, yeah, agreed. But we could argue all day long about the other point, and end up getting nowhere. As always, Just MHO.

I am definitely marking this day on my calander. :unsure:

Cool post, Sunesis. Because Jesus was "absent," and the gospels were part of the OT and "for our learning," according to VP, he was removed as our example of how to live. Pretty clever deception, really. When you get rid of Jesus and his example, then character becomes less of an issue.

Gee, Oldies, you're scaring me.

Ham, been there done that, after I left the cult. <_< Had to re-evaluate everything.

Honestly, I don't get the idea that if you are born-again, you can't be a horrible sinner. The new birth doesn't affect our character or personality. I think it's totally possible to accept Jesus as Lord one minute, receive eternal life, and then fall back into old habits, no matter how perverted or dysfunctional. To say that VPW wasn't a Christian is a stretch in my book. Hey, I think he was a pretty horrible one, but geeze, everything I know from the bible says that we are saved by grace. And I don't believe salvation can be lost by sinning. Sorry for the sidetrack. I don't want to load my high powered doctrine gun here, but geeze, just because someone might've been a pitiful excuse for a minister doesn't mean they were incapable of receiving Christ at one point in life. I've seen some Chrisitans do some pretty hateful and despicably mean things. It seems pretty pointless to me to argue over whether or not he was saved, unless you wanna have a lengthy doctrinal discussion. Another topic for another thread, I guess. Lord, help me. I just agreed with Oldies on something. :blink:

Sounds like a great topic for a new thread, Ham.

This place is really interesting. The cafe I mean. Every so often, a newbie stumbles in, and chastises people for being "judgmental," just because some want to sort things out, and make as much sense of their past involvement with a questionable "christian" organization as they can. So many people wander in here wondering "What the heck happened? in the Way." They come here looking for resolution. (Yeah, I know that because people have said it over and over again on this board.) I really don't see it as any kind of crime, or sin even, to relate the other side of the story, or even to collectively speculate on past events and the reasons they happened the way they did. Anybody ever taken a history class, where there is enlightening discussion about events of the past, and the how and why they occurred the way they did? I never heard anybody in a history class interupt the discussion and tell everyone voicing their opinion that they were being "judgmental." Good grief. Yet, I also understand why people object to some of the discussion here. It gets pretty emotional because we are talking about people and events that we were a part of. I really can't see anything wrong with having an opinion and verbalizing it. So with that in mind, maybe we can just cut each other a little slack, on both ends of the spectrum. End of sermon. :) Oh, except for one bible verse, for those who like such things: Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! I think that verse was written "for our learning." ;) Peace out.

Dearest Krys Hope you have the best birthday ever!! :wub:

T-bone, that's hilarious! How the heck do you think of these things? :blink:

Roy, Thanks for telling me God loves me. I haven't heard that from anyone in a really long time. And it is so nice to hear.

Gosh, Roy, this poll you thought of, is pretty brilliant. Thanks for thinking of it.

Oh geeze, another dan. Pleeze don't apologize for speaking your mind!! Your opinion and experience counts just as much as anybody else's. I tend to be a loud mouth when I get on a subject I'm passionate about. Pleeze forgive. I never meant to minimilize your thoughts and opinions. I apologize.

Not trying to pick on you, I promise. But what doesn't make sense to you, makes total sense to me. That's the beauty of this place.

And so would you fault those of us who were nearby for years for trying to make sense out of "what we saw?"

"No wonder it was told that in '78 the 3rd Corps and other HQ lifers were sent out on the field for a year and kicked out of headquarters cause they were "too negative against Vp and had gotten too used to the HQ lifestyle' ", as it was said to me, I really didn't understand how that could happen at the time, but now I do." I worked on staff that year, while the 3rd corps was back "in-rez." I never heard that in those words. But somehow it makes sense.

My question to you, another dan, is, did you know him personally?

Well, not only that....but.....think about the push and pull of the guys "on the field," and the ones who never got out there and risked themselves. LCM went in-rez in the 2nd corps, and forever after lived in the sheltered environment of Emporia or HQ. He wasn't the only one. There were those who felt like they were the ones "in the trenches" doing the heavy lifting of the "ministry," who had little respect for those who stayed in their comfy trailers at HQ. Tis the stuff soap operas are made of. :B)

but now I see To answer your question, uh, no, as far as Geer being in the running. He didn't "rise to power" til after that. VPW was very much the kingpin at AC '79. He had a large pool of synchophants to choose from at that point, and Geer wasn't one of them. My opinion only.

Sky Ok, also remember VP's paranoid side. Who understood his paranoia? Which of his sidekicks trained attack dogs and packed a gun. Geer did. VP thought his life was in jeopardy. Throw that into the mix.

Gosh, as much as I hate to revisit this subject, (it gives me a headache) somebody might benefit from out collective out-loud ponderings. VP expressed remorse after naming Craighead as president. Why??? I don't think the sole reason was because Craig was a total dip. It also had to do with the fact that VP was considered "retired," and put on the back burner as Sunesis said. Did Craig spend much time with VP after the mantel was passed on? NO. Did he got to VP asking his advice and counsel? NO. Craig got all overwhelmed and went off dancing, and left the leadership, guidance, etc. of the "ministry" to ??? VP saw everthing falling apart and watched helplessly on the sidelines. His health was failing, he could no longer carry the way, inc on the strength of his personality and he knew it. He ran to Geer, because he was the one who still "stayed faithful." He was VP's companion and comrade in crime even after the passing of the "skunk pelt" as we used to say on Waydale. Geer was the only one he felt he could trust. Just my 20/20 hindsight kicking in here. :B)

Yes.

Sky, If I may intercept here. Running off to Geer made perfect sense. After VP relenquished the "presidency" (ok think about that term for a few minutes, and get your brain fried once again) his influence was minimalized. He didn't see that coming. He handed over the reigns to someone else, and all the yes men flocked to the new mog, wanting to insure their position in the "ministry." Of course, those who couldn't stand the new mog, had issues too. Gag, I can't think about this subject too much longer, sorry.