Schwaigers

I'm OK. I've become the bionic woman. Recovery from my surgery has given me time to think and read and paint and think some more. The info I've found about Leviathan ranges from trouble within a church (gossiping, etc) to handling finances poorly. Everybody seems to have a different explanation, but they all seem to agree it represents some sort of power or force, and that it's not just a sea monster. I think I would prefer that it be a sea monster. Where did TWI get the notion it represents alcoholism? -Pat

What do you guys know about Leviathan? TWI taught that it had to do with alcoholism, addiction, etc. I can't find anything from other sources which make this connection. Ideas? Stories? I was reading Job and chapter 41 is really fascinating. What is Leviathan or the Spirit of Leviathan? Whatever it is, it sounds like we shouldn't mess with it. -Pat

Darrell.. Nice post. TWI never bragged much on Jesus, so nowadays I always enjoy reading about how wonderful he was / is. Thanks for that. But, I still think your examples meet the requirements of the second commandment, not the first. There has to be a difference. You say that if and when we care for the things and people that are in fact God's things and people, then this is how we love God. To me, that's like saying when I babysit for my sister's kids, that's how I love my sister. OK - well, that's a piece of how I love my sister, but it's way bigger than that. I maintain that the essence of loving God is the recognition of God in Christ in you. And consequently, of loving and trusting yourself, which then fuels and drives your love toward others. It's about going with your intuition, something TWI tried to destroy. -Pat

Goey, Your quote of LCM referring to "gladly" executing people as they did in Old Testament times ... oh boy ... that statement of his led to a nightmare for our family !! We were in Family Corps training at the time. The Children's Activities Coordinator loudly repeated this teaching, as a way to admonish a group of small children for some (minor) misbehavior. He stood there - like LCM - and told these little kids that if they had been living in OT times, their parents would have killed them by throwing stones at them! My husband and I witnessed this and were horrified at the fear it instilled in these children. We complained to him (the Children's Activities Coordinator) but were essentially laughed at. So we went to the Family Corps Coordinator, reported it to him, who promptly dropped us from Corps Training. That's what you get if you "speak up". ...well, that was the first time we got dropped. We went back two more times over the following four years, before we finally got the message that TWI and its Corps were not the place to be. "Would you kill for TWI?" Hmmmmmmm. What if you are suddenly the enemy of TWI? Then do you become the target? -Pat

Mike, I'm never quite sure what you like best - VPW, VPW's teachings, or God. If I were to answer my own question (above) based on the material you post, it would appear that your allegiances fall in the order I have listed them. I do recognize that appearances aren't always valid, but we were taught to be careful about even "the appearance of evil". So, be careful, Mike. I mean it. Could it be that Brady's topic of VPW's integrity has affected you, like it has so many of us? We all know he lied. (But everybody lies). Did he lie to YOU too? And Brady, It's a good point you make about "integrity" and VPW, since he spoke so much about integrity himself. Still, like Mike said, none of us know whether he asked forgiveness at the end, or not. TWI never taught much about forgiveness. So you gotta wonder. -Pat

Liarliar ...etc Are you saying - To love God is to "quit" doing this and that? I think maybe this is a piece of the whole picture. But this is like me saying, "I will know you love me if you quit smoking". Loving is not simply the omission of certain behaviors. It's way bigger than that. -Pat

Don't you remember LCM in the Advanced Class (on film!), saying "There's only one sound which scares some devil spirits", and then he pulls that big gun up from under the table and cocks it? Well, LCM certainly knew that bullet holes don't hurt spirits, so ... what else was he teaching us ... but to kill? Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-gun. Dave bought me a 38 caliber semiautomatic for my birthday. But killing humans -- that's terrifying -- and I am sure TWI taught (whether between the lines or not) that we should kill for the MOG. Comes close to terrorism in my book. -Pat

Yana-g, With so much fun magical stuff to grow up with, it seems he would have been even more of a realist as an adult. -Pat

Do you remember TWI telling us about famous people throughout history - and how so many of them were possessed? We were told that the achievements of these guys could only have occurred with the help of the Devil. Examples: DeVinci, Crazy Horse, various Olympic champions, Beethoven, all the popes, Mohammed Ali, Shakespeare, John Lennon, Joan of Arc, heck .. I even heard once that Ben Franklin was possessed! Likewise, any so-called "child prodigy" kids were said to be possessed. What was that all about anyhow? -Pat

Ginger, I don't think that's what God is. It would be really hard to love him if He were a nasty God. But I think He's the opposite - I think He's accepting of us, proud of us even, and clearly He doesn't hold grudges or else why would He have made salvation available by having His own son die? Nah, I think God is everything good ... including the part of Himself that is inside of each of us. But TWI and other negative influences have convinced us not to trust that part of ourselves. And this is where they handicapped our natural responses to love God - they got in the way of us trusting that "still small voice", they taught us to not like ourselves (which contains a piece of God). Obeying the first commandment is really quite healing when it's done this way. Trust your intuition. It always works. -Pat

Let me tell you a story. When we were in residence, a nice lady who had been dropped from Corps (several years earlier) sent us a sizable check to be used as sponsorship. We were promptly told to send it back, along with a letter describing how our spiritual future would be poisoned by accepting money from such an infidel. No kidding. Likewise, gifts sent to us from skeptical relatives, etc, always had to be sent back. After our own dismissal, we sent a box with snack-food, school supplies, and shoes (which we knew their kids needed) to a family still in residence. It was sent back to us with no explanation. But we knew they were simply following orders. I'm sure the same would happen if a bunch of us ex-way folks started sending money for Mrs. Wierwille. Her family - the innies and the outies - will make sure she's OK, I think. I know she did a lot of good for a lot of people. But I also have to wonder how much influence she chose NOT to use on Dr. W, regarding the destructive and hurtful things he did. GS has already discussed this issue. My point is #1 Our money to her would not be accepted, or at least not used in the way it was intended, simply because of the source. And #2 It is weird to send money to someone who may have been key to harming so many lives. Just an opinion. -Pat

OK. Here's the conclusion I'm reaching. We've all been taught about "God-in-Christ-in-you". It's biblical, but confusing as presented by TWI. Still, the idea of God within you ... is noted by many religions, including Christianity. I don't need to read about it; I know He's in there. Now, with this in mind,what happens when you just know in your heart that you are to do something, but it conflicts with some other ethic or principle which you believe to be true? ie (My heart tells me to trust this person, but my training tells me not to be unequally yoked). Surely this has happend to you. TWI banned a Way Prod album, because it was called "Follow Your Heart". TWI referred to "gut feelings" as evidence of possession. No. Those feelings are what makes up your intuition. My dictionary defines intuition as "the power of the mind by which it immediately perceives the truth of things without reason or analysis". Sorta like revelation, I guess. It's holy, not devilish! My understanding of this, now, is that intuition is that God-in-Christ-in-you. When we get those gut-feelings, that's God! That's intuition! Sooooooooo.... to ignore those feelings is to violate the first commandment. If we love God, we gotta pay attentnion to those intuitive episodes, gotta go with it! But to the contrary, TWI convinced us that this was devil spirit influence. Example: In Family Corps, we parents often had to leave our young children - sometimes for weeks - when we would go out witnessing in another town, or to work in an Advanced Class at another locale, or to go out LEAD. All of us mothers, and many of the dads, knew in our heart-of-hearts that this was not good for our kids. Life was stressful enough for the little ones, with the rigid schedules and all the adults carrying around wooden spoons. You felt like you always had to protect your kids from the craziness of the Corps. To leave the children for any length of time ... well, it went against every parenting intuition we had. But we did it anyhow. We denied God. Approaches to health issues, missed family reunions and funerals, getting pregnant, even manifesting according to prescribed custom - so many things that we knew were wrong - those pieces of knowledge were bits of our intuition, it was God within us, and we denied Him. We blew it when it came to the first commandment. And it's neat that the second commandment is said to be "like unto the first". If we screw up the first, then the second can't be right either. We're supposed to love our neighbors as ourself, which means to the same degree as we love ourselves. But we were all taught to abandon our intuition (that part of us where God and ourselves mesh), resulting in many of us not loving ourselves at all. Then we struggled with the second commandment by loving our neighbors in the same ammount that we loved ourselves - zero! zip! Seems like we need to get back into the routine of following our hearts. That's God. That's loving God. Only then can we truly love others. It's working for me, and I'm aware that God is very pleased with this. The more I practice it, the more I love Him. There are certainly many ways to love God, but it's time for us ex-wayfers to sift through the TWI methods, find the real stuff, and throw out the rest. -Pat

Excathedra, You and I are on the same track. I will elaborate later, because I'm still recovering from that wretched surgery, and taking too many meds to express myself clearly tonight. Oh my, it's 4 a.m.! Geez, I'll be glad when this is all healed up! Pain sucks! And Mike, dear ... It's nice to hear from you again. Sometimes I "love" your words, because they make me think (even if I usually end up disagreeing) - and I could say I "love" you, as a brother in Christ. But none of this is the same as my love for God. There must be a difference between the first and second commandments, don't you think? Also, Mike, I've done tons of study on that word "Agape", which you mentioned in your first post on this thread. Just about every authority, including those recommended by TWI, defines "Agape" as unconditional love, which certainly eliminates any legalism, so let's not go there. Sir Guess, your near-poetry is beautifully appropriate for the topic at hand. -Pat

I'm having some new thoughts about the first commandment. On the surface, it would seem that this topic should appear in the "Doctrinal" section, but I'm putting it here because I think TWI became an obstacle to carrying this out, the most important commandment according to Jesus. He said the two major commandments were "Love God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself". From my perspective most churches focus on that second one - loving other people: charity functions, homeless shelters, funding hospitals, schools, etc - and this is fine. But what do we know about loving God? TWI essentially taught that obedience to leadership was the same as loving God. I should hope we've all thrown out that myth ! But what is it to love God? How do you do it? How do you integrate the reality of "God in Christ in you" ... into loving God? Share some ideas, please, and I'll get around to sharing what I'm learning. -Pat

VPW's reasoning for eliminating the word "Christian" from TWI's vocabulary was probably NOT based on research. I think this was yet another subtle strategy to divide Way believers from other individuals or organizations who were born again. Language is really powerful, and VPW knew that. He used the same strategy in naming the group The Way Ministry. That simple word, "The" implied it was the only one. There are many examples of this strategy in TWI history. "Christian" is an all-inclusive term, for anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. To use "Christian" in reference to TWI would be to say that VPW's people were part of a larger group. But VPW preferred to separate his people from other Christians. Like so many other "principles" which he told us were based in deep and profound research, this one was simply another method of owning and controlling human beings. He was a genius, but he was a creep too. -Pat [This message was edited by Schwaigers on January 05, 2004 at 9:47.]

More ... For me, personally, Waybrain includes loss of individuality. Things we were good at - skills or humor or creativity - they stomped it into the ground. Retrieving these strengths seems to be one of the most difficult challenges we ex-Way people face. It's like they took away our spunk, our self-confidence. -Pat

Datway - You're right; "third aid" meant #1 Go to God, #2 Go to fellow-believers, and #3 Go to a doctor. In the 90's TWI elaborated on "third aid" to include a time-frame, which was this: If after step one, your health has not improved within 24 hours, move to step two, and if no improvement occurs within the next 24 hours, move to step three. Of course, any leader in TWI could over-rule a doctor's advice. But ... Coolwaters, you're right too. The under-lying message was that if you or your family had ANY health issues, it was due to poor believing. So lots of folks avoided openly speaking to other believers if they became sick or injured. To do so was to open yourself up to confrontation. Likewise, to be taking an on-going medication (insulin, ritalin, BP meds, etc) was an indication of your unbelief. Interestingly, when leadership became ill, it was NOT due to unbelief, but rather it was an "attack from the Adversary" because of that particular leader's strong stand. Total insanity. And this was just ONE little piece of Waybrain, that many of us who have left TWI still have trouble letting go of. -Pat

Darrell, I think the "elitism" you refer to ... is one of the most long-lasting effects that TWI had on its people. Even those of us who have rejected much (if not most) of what TWI taught ... we still have trouble shaking off that elitism. The arrogance of our intellectual knowledge of the Word - it tends to hinder us in considering other possibilities, and it definitely fosters the gap between us as individuals and other folks who could possibly help us. -Pat

Kit, EVERYTHING about Jesus is so cool - the cross, the fulfilled prophecies, his teachings, the miracles, and on and on. Can't get enough of it. And it seems that so many of those cool things were twisted by TWI: -His birth -Whom he came for (It was for ALL of us !) -His example of tolerance -The gospels being shoved back into the OT -His relationship with his earthly family -How we can do "greater things" thus minimizing his power -The concept of the "absent Christ" -The overemphasis on the trinity issue. -The focus on dates surrounding his death and resurrection, rather than the incredible sacrifice and our resulting freedom -The priority of the epistles over the gospels -The word games, like "Christ-mass" and "Christen-dumb" and when to call him "Jesus" and when to call him "Jesus Christ", and that "Power of attorney" stuff (He's our big brother, not our attorney) -And then there was that Athlete's production, which left Jesus out altogether, and made LCM the star of the show. TWI may have not been the Antichrist, but they were / are indeed anti-Christ. -Pat

I think the lesson Rafael learned is a good one: Don't "blindly" trust people. That's a healthy conclusion. Unfortunately, my own response to the TWI experience is not so healthy. I don't trust anybody. I don't like it this way, but that's where I'm at. A lady I've known for years (also ex-Way) tells me that the reason I can't trust people now ... is because I don't trust God anymore. I don't think she's right. But it's an interesting idea. Any thoughts on this? Any guidance on regaining trust? And do you guys think the "Good" we got from TWI was worth it? I don't. -Pat

Only a handfull of replies so far, but look at the consistent lasting effect: Me - inability to trust anyone Jeff - no longer fellowships with others Year 2027 - "lost feeling that I belong somewhere and can be a part of something" Rafael - not to trust

Vickles, Huh? Another group? What am I missing? -Pat

Raf, How did you know it is my birthday today? Very strange. -Pat

What lasting effects has TWI had on your life? Good stuff? Bad stuff? Can you change it? For me, a good lasting effect is the respect I have for the Bible. Prior to TWI, I didn't appreciate the Bible like I do now. The bad lasting effect (effects) are a certain loss of self-confidence, and an almost total inability to trust other people, even those I dearly love. Changing these two bad effects is really tough. The longer I'm gone the better it gets, but I've got a long way to go still. -Pat

Well, Todd, you may be a "skimmer" of this thread, but me ... I've only read the last five posts. (28 pages is incredible !! ) Anyhow, just wanted to let you guys know that a mutual friend of Todd's and mine, who is still in TWI, recently told me --- ---- Now brace yourselves --- --- Rosalie has formally and officially stated that "The Way International is not the only organization with the truth" !!!! -Pat